I'm in need of some help??

Date 03-01-2008 02:03

Jason,
SB-209 is the specification for the material that you are testing,it is P23
but im not sure that is what your asking

strat

By flamin

Date 03-01-2008 04:29

Thanks strat-

I am looking for some info on the specific joint design in question. Tolerances on the angles of the V-groove, root gap, root face etc. The main reason I am asking, is because, we had some test plates made up with the required bevels, and root face, cut to size etc. We made several of these plates so that the welders could practice. But in order to save some of the aluminum stock, the welders decided to cut the welded pieces apart, mill out the welds and machine a new weld prep on the aluminum so that they can re-use it. BUT..........instead of beveling a 37.5° (75° included) angle with the 1/8" root face, he decided to bevel the edges 45° (90° included) with no root face. To me, that just doesn't seem right, but whether that is acceptable or not, I am trying to find a WPS to verify this. The welders seem to think that as long as it's a V-groove, that is all that matters. But surely there has to be some specific criteria that needs to be followed right?

Thanks again
Jason

By strat

Date 03-01-2008 16:38

Jason,

For what code are you guys testing to.
The guy that give you the sketch and drew the bevel angle at 37.5 degrees (75 included) is correct under section IV
The welders thinking that the groove angle does not matter is incorrect.
If you could give some more info as to what code I could help you more,but it would be monday (all books are at the shop)
If some of the guys on this forum reads this im sure they could help you also.

strat

By flamin

Date 03-02-2008 17:59

Well......I was told that they were supposed to be testing to Section IX, and they will be testing with 2" pipe as well, which I know it shown in Sec. IX, but the 1/2" alum. plate is what's throwing me off. I can't find it in Sec. IX.

If it helps any, here is what is on the drawing. BTW, You should be able to click on the image to zoom in if you need to.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/flamin-gitaur/vgroove.jpg

Thanks again for your time.

Jason

By 803056

Date 03-02-2008 18:12

You didn't tell us what welding process is to be used, but you did indicate the plates will be back gouged and welded from the second side.

The consultant you retained should be providing a WPS for the welder to follow, but if you are testing them to ASME Section IX, you need to have a qualified WPS and you should be providing the WPS for your welders to follow.

If you are qualifying the procedure, the consultant should provide a preliminary WPS so the welder knows how to prepare the test plates for the tests.

If your consultant isn't providing the information you need, hire someone else.

Best regards - Al

By flamin

Date 03-02-2008 18:33

(oops, Sorry) I guess it would help if I had mentioned the process.

GTAW
DC Straight W/ Helium Shielding
3/32 Dia. 4043 Filler Rod

By 803056

Date 03-03-2008 14:08

As I stated earlier, no qualified WPS, no welder qualifications.

The WPS should include the appropriate groove angles for the various groove types. Contrary to some comments, a 75 degree angle is not the best choice for aluminum. Your welders have a better understanding of working with aluminum than does your consultant.

I am surprised you are using helium shielding for schedule 80 pipe. Helium, DCEN is usually reserved for heavy (thick) materials where increased heat input is needed to get the penetration required. You do not get the benefit of cathodic cleaning with DC straight polarity.

If you do not have a qualified procedure, qualify it or you are spinning your wheels and going nowhere. The first thing your customer should check is your WPS and PQR. If there is a problem, i.e., there is no PQR, your welder qualifications would be invalid.

Good luck - Al

By js55

Date 03-03-2008 16:33

Al is right. Your qualified WPS will dictate bevel design. ASME IX does not, for a lot of reasons.

By strat

Date 03-03-2008 18:51

were is it stated that he is welding schedule 80 pipe
i thought it was 1/2" plate(aluminum) and 2" pipe without a schedule refrence
not trying to be smart,just wondering

strat

By js55

Date 03-03-2008 19:39

Huh?

By strat

Date 03-03-2008 20:02 Edited 03-03-2008 20:18

sorry man,
al said (surprised you are using helium sheilding for schedule 80 pipe)
the only thing i read was 2" pipe along with the 1/2" plate (aluminum)
I did not see where he stated any schedule
but im sure i missed something somewhere
my apologies
strat

By 803056

Date 03-03-2008 20:32 Edited 03-03-2008 20:35

He did refer to welding 2 inch pipe in the post at 17:59 on March 2nd.

"Well......I was told that they were supposed to be testing to Section IX, and they will be testing with 2" pipe as well, which I know it shown in Sec. IX, but the 1/2" alum. plate is what's throwing me off." (Flamin)

Sorry for the confusion gents. Beats me where I came up with the schedule 80!

Best regards - Al

By js55

Date 03-03-2008 20:39

Jugglin chain saws Al. Jugglin chain saws. Better to drop one than lose a finger.

By 803056

Date 03-03-2008 20:40

Call me stubby.

Al

By flamin

Date 03-03-2008 21:34

Thanks for all you input guys, and just for the record, it will be 2" Schedule 80 pipe.

This morning I called the guy who gave us the sketch, and who is the same guy who will be performing the bend tests. I asked him where he got WPS from, so that I could read up on the specs., and he said.......awwww don't worry bout' it, it's to Sec IX. (?????) I still can't find it in the code book. Now I'm not saying the info isn't there, I might be overlooking it somewhere, but I would assume that it would be in the Sec IX book? Is there somewhere else I might need to look? This whole situation ,to me, just doesn't seem solid. There just seems to be too many loose ends with no answers.

Thanks again guys

Jason

By 803056

Date 03-03-2008 22:00

Section IX does not include any WPSs.

Your company would have had to qualify the WPS for you to have a valid WPS to work with. Either that, or you would have to be using a Standard WPS published by AWS and you would have had to purchase a license to use it.

Is the fellow you are working with an employee if the same company you work for or is he a consultant?

If he is a consultant, you better find out where he is getting his information and where is that WPS he is referring to coming from?

Are you qualifying the welders or are you qualifying the welding procedure?

If you are qualifying the welding procedure, the consultant can provide you with a preliminary WPS (unqualified and it is his best guess of what will work) that will provide direction to the welder to weld the test coupon for the Procedure Qualification Record (PQR). Once the coupon is welded, it is tested and if it passes the required test, it is the basis of writing the qualified WPS. The welders can then be qualified using the qualified WPS.

If this person is a consultant and he isn't providing you with the right information, you can spend thousands of dollars for nothing. You might consider contacting someone else if you don't get the answers you want from this fellow. If this fellow can not provide you with sufficient information to put your mind at ease, go elsewhere and get a new consultant. If the fellow is an employee, he may need help if he can't explain how and why he's doing what he's doing.

Let me start with the basics so I am not grasping at feathers in mid-air;

Does your company already have a qualified WPS and the supporting PQR?
Yes: you can test your welders to qualify and certify them using the WPS you have if it is applicable to the work.
No: you have to qualify the WPS before you can qualify the welders.

You can not test your welders to someone else's WPS. WPSs can not be bought and sold like baseball cards and they are not transferable unless you own the other company or you are a subsiderary of the other company.

As I said earlier, Section IX does not include any WPSs no matter how many pages you turn, they are not in there.

Send me an e-mail if you have any other questions.

Best regards - Al

By flamin

Date 03-04-2008 00:15 Edited 03-04-2008 03:49

Thanks Al.

After reading your last post, seems I need to look into things a bit further.

-At this point, I'm not certain if our company already has a qualified WPS, or if there is one that has previously been purchased. (licensed)

-The fellow does not work for the same company I work for, he is more like a consultant. I did call the guy this morning to find out where this info. was coming from, and he simply said Sec IX.

-We are qualifying the welders, but perhaps........I need to find out if the procedure is being qualified as well. (good point)

-The person we are working with (consulting) has been certifying our welders for the past several years as far as I know, so at this point I'm assuming at this point, the information he is giving us is correct. Me on the other hand, am just starting to learn this stuff, as far as the codes go, so there is alot I need to learn (which I'm trying). I thought this would be a good opportunity to get some hands on, digging through the code books.

-So you said there are no WPS in the Sec IX code book, are you saying that our welders, or company, would have had to have certified to this previously in order to certify the welders now? And if we haven't certified to this specific test in the past, we need to certify the procedure (as our own) first, then certify the welders? As far as I know, the welders have never certified to this specific test with the DC Straight using helium, but they have tested in the past using AC with Argon.

Thanks again

Jason

By 803056

Date 03-04-2008 03:18 Edited 03-04-2008 04:03

I do believe you are starting to understand the intent of my comments.

If your company doesn't have a qualified WPS, you don't now and never have had properly qualified welders. Your company can not use someone else's WPS or an unqualified WPS to qualify your welders if you are working in strict accordance with ASME.

The essential variable of the WPS such as process, base metal (with some exceptions), filler metal F and A number, etc. must be the same as those used when the procedure was qualified. So, a change from one shielding gas to another would be looked upon as an essential variable for the WPS, as such a change from argon to helium or a helium mix would require the WPS to be requalified.

However, a welder is qualified to different essential variables than the WPS. For instance, whereas a change from one P number to another is an essential change to the WPS, it is not necessarily an essential variable for the welder qualification. However, even if the welder is qualified for a range of variables by virtue of passing a welder's test following the variables listed in a qualified WPS he still has to weld in accordance with a qualified WPS. Example: A welder follows a qualified WPS and tests on stainless steel using the GTAW process. He is qualified to weld carbon steel, low alloy steel, stainless steel, and nickel alloys by virtue of passing the test using stainless steel. However to do so, the employer needs qualified WPSs for all the base metals or the welder is limited to the (few) WPS(s) the employer does have. Just because the welder is qualified to weld all the different base metals doesn't mean that he can without the necessary WPSs.

The letters ASME stand for "Always, Sometimes, Maybe, or Except", and unless you know the rules of the game, you can get yourself into a real hornets nest of trouble.

The bottom line is that your consultant should be able to explain what he is doing and how he is doing it. Section IX is complex if you don't have a working knowledge of how to use it, but that is why you hire a consultant, to help you over the rough spots. He should be able to show you the paragraph in Section IX that allows him to do what he is doing. If he can't, there's a problem.

We, here in the forum, can only speak in general terms unless we know all the details of your situation.

Good luck and best regards - Al