plug weld reinforcement

Date 03-10-2008 20:05

I think that you could safely presume that they would be the same. I like to see a little above the surface, but it really depends on the material thickness. I don't see filling a hole in 1" plate as being very practical, unless it's specified, and then, whether or not it needed to ground flush.

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-10-2008 20:14

How'd you know it was 1" plate :)

I does specify to fill completely without grinding. these are 3" long slots and some of my welders are leaving over 1/8" reinforcement.
I cant find anything that says slots should be treated as groove welds and am a little reluctant to tell the welders they cant be higher than 1/8" without having something in writing that says they can't!

By 803056

Date 03-10-2008 20:21

Interesting question.

I would approach it as a groove weld and apply the same criteria as any other groove weld. My logic is that it isn't a fillet weld that is limited to the inside corners of the slot, i.e., the fillet weld is deposited on the joint, where as the groove weld is deposited in the joint.

If a fillet around the inside corners were specified, I would apply the criteria that is applicable to a fillet weld.

Best regards - Al

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-10-2008 20:29 Edited 03-10-2008 20:39

No weld symbols.
note says "all plug welds fill flush" Edit: Engineer says don't have to grind flush. can be convex. (but that still didn't answer my question about reinforcement)
Engineers say "if it complies to D1.1 its good"
these are the same engineers I mentioned in another post about being fresh out of mechanical engineering school and not knowing crap about welding!

By hogan

Date 03-10-2008 20:24

i would reference AWS A2.4 and ask the engineer.

By waynekoe (**)

Date 03-10-2008 22:55

What purpose do these parts have? Is this some Arch. exposed stuff? does it really matter if there is too much reinforcement? Code says it has a minimum fill depth of 5/8" for a 1" plug or slot, and the way I see this, the only way you (the welders) could get too much reinforcement is either they're just screwin off or they're screwin with you. Tell them to fill them flush and walk away.

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-11-2008 04:42

These are large plates that cover some big box type weldments.

They are not architecturally exposed except to myself and the workers at boeing(and anyone else that admires weldments the way we do). they are fixturing for the 787.

The slots are put in to give the middle of the plates something to weld to.
The basic reason they are getting so much reinforcement is they are using 5/64 wire and not paying attn to how much weld they are depositing.
management wants production welders using 5/64 and only half of the welders are capable of running it efficiently. needless to say, the ones that can't run it are the ones that keep having to fix welds and would be more productive to just let them run 1/16 wire.

I am gonna treat them as a groove weld. in reality they are a groove weld with dams!

By Joey

Date 03-11-2008 15:54 Edited 03-11-2008 15:58

I would not consider it as groove weld. Its a slot weld used with prepared elongated hole in one member of tee and lap joint. The hole can be completely welded....reinforcing normally not required to obtain weld strength.

Regards
Joey

By Jim12

Date 03-11-2008 05:12

In d1.1 page 200 section 5 fabrication it states "all welds meet the visual acceptance criteria of table 6.1 and shall be free from cracks,overlaps, and the unacceptable profile discontinuities exhibited in figure 5.4 except as otherwise allowed in 5.24" so in my opinion unless it is stated otherwise I'd go with the 1/8 max reinforcement.

By swnorris (****)

Date 03-11-2008 15:06

I don't think plug weld welds have the same reinforcement criteria as groove welds and I don't believe that reinforcement on a plug weld is of any value. As far as I know, there is no criteria in D1.1 for plug weld reinforcement because there's no point in filling a hole beyond the thickness of the material. There is criteria that discusses the depth of the plug weld based on specific material thicknesses, but nothing to address overfilling. The fill is either partial, complete and ground flush, or complete without grinding, including any convexity, which shouldn't be an issue if the welder's technique is correct. There is also nothing in 5.4 or 6.1 that addresses plug weld profiles.

By Bill M

Date 03-11-2008 15:58

If the engineer said, "If it complies to D1.1 it is good", I would site section 3.10 and a show that a plug weld in 1" plate only has to be filled to 5/8" .

By Jim12

Date 03-12-2008 04:17

Please do not read into the fact that I'm suggesting that 6.1 applys. I am just trying to show that is where I would go for visual acceptance criteria. As for 3.10 wouldn't it only apply if you were creating a wps for slot or plug welds and if thats the case, wouldn't you then contact the engineer to verify that filling partially or filled completely etc is the correct result ? Please let me know if my thinking is correct and if not why?

By swnorris (****)

Date 03-12-2008 10:08

If the EOR says to fill it completely, then fill it completely, regardless of what is stated in the code. The EOR has the authority to deviate from the code as he/she sees fit.

By 803056

Date 03-12-2008 13:23

Hello gentlemen;

Paragraph 6.9 of AWS D1.1-2006 states that all welds shall be acceptable if the criteria of Table 6.1 are satisfied. Table 6.1 is applicable to all welds unless they are specifically excluded from meeting those requirements. I don't know of any such exclusion for plug and slot welds.

These visual acceptance criteria are even applicable to studs that are manually welded with SMAW, GMAW, or FCAW. Yet there is no direct thread between section 7 and table 6.1. This is a clarification recently published in the Welding Journal.

Best regards - Al

By swnorris (****)

Date 03-12-2008 14:22

Al,

6.9 All welds shall be visually inspected. I get that part. The other part of 6.9 refers to Table 6.1 for acceptance criteria. I get that part. Table 6.1 addresses cracks, fusion, crater cross section, weld profiles, inspection time, undersized welds, undercut, and porosity. That's the part I don't get. The poster wanted to know whether plug and slot welds have the same rules for reinforcement as groove welds. No where in 6.1 does it address plug and slot welds. 6.1 (4) refers the reader to 5.24, which doesn't mention plug and slot welds, and refers the reader to 5.4 Acceptable and Unacceptable weld profiles. 5.4 addresses fillet weld and groove weld profiles in butt joints, with no mention of plug or slot welds. Groove welds are not the same as plug and welds. Look at their individual definitions in Annex K. I still say that plug and slot welds are not subject to any of this criteria unless there's an issue with a specific item, such as a crack in a plug weld, a fusion problem, undercut, or porosity that could be traced to 6.1 criteria. The same thing for manually welded studs.

By 803056

Date 03-12-2008 14:33 Edited 03-12-2008 15:03

I referred to the inspection of studs because there is no direct thread back to Table 6.1, yet the code committee responded to my inquiry that Table 6.1 is applicable to studs. As such, my take is that table 6.1 applies to "all welds" as does the profile requirements of section 5.

Is there a direct link, perhaps not, so this question should probably be addressed by the code committee if it isn't clearly addressed by D1.1.

My question took nearly two years to be resolved. I wonder how long it would take to address this issue.

As for the height of the reinforcement, I would look at the reentrant angle at the toe of the plug weld. If it is less than 90 degrees it should probably corrected so that it doesn't form a shape notched stress riser. As for the issue whether the slot and plug are groove welds or not, I consider them to be similar to a square groove with backing. As I stated before, I use the "test" that groove welds go into the joint, fillet welds go on the joint.

As is always the case, it is only my opinion. I would document my observations and let the EOR sort it out. If the plug or slot weld is stressed, he can require it to be corrected. If it isn't an issue, let sleeping dogs lie.

This is a good question! I'm not sure there is a definitive answer.

Best regards - Al