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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Certification from a training facility or tech college
- - By Kix (****) Date 03-14-2008 13:56
When a person attends a training facility such as Lincoln or Hobart just to name two for example, how do they legally qualify a person in down hill short circuit mig per say?  Since this is not a prequalified procedure, do they have to qualify a procedure by testing?  I know most of the time they are qualifying students to a prequalified procedure, but what about unqualified procedures.  I had a buddy ask me about this yesterday and I told him yes.  I said they would need to qualify a procedure and then they could qualify their students to that particular procedure and send them home with a piece of paper.  Note I said qualify and not certify because if neither one is a AWS accredited testing facility then they are only qualified to a AWS D1.1 procedure for example and not certified.  In my book it's the same dam thing, but ya get what I'm saying.  You could still go to most places and say "I'm certified, here's my WQTR" and they would never be the wiser.

  Thanks,
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 03-14-2008 14:10
The certification/qualification is only as valuable as the company that you work for wants it to be.  A muffler shop may accept test results from someone else without question; but a pressure vessel shop or bridge shop would probably never accept it.

Industrial and heavy structural companies generally (ie - almost all of the time) do not recognize results of testing unless the test was conducted under their direct control.  Most of the construction codes are written in a way that puts that burben on the company.

There are provisions in some codes that allow a company to accept (ie - certify) results from another organization; however, they must first review the test parameters and confirm that they are consistent with a qualified WPS that the company has in place (and will be used by the welder based on the WQTR provided).

This is a touchy subject and it really demands that a specific code be referred to in order to talk about it with confidence.  Suffice to say, that the more sophisticated the welding is for any given company, the less liekly they are to accept test records from anyone but their own test shop.

Charles
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-14-2008 14:37
So Hobart or Lincoln would really be wasting their money if they spent money to qualify a procedure.  They'd be better off just having a guy weld a vertical down GMAW short arc coupon and giving a him a piece of paper saying he passed without a PQR to reference it to.  Well shucks, Now that I think about it I hope none of our customers come in saying they want our welders to be AWS D1.1 certified because then everything I've done would be for nothing.  I better have our engineers change the prints that say these parts must be welded by a AWS D1.1 certified welder to these parts must be welded by an AWS D1.1 qualified welder for legal purposes.  I forgot about all the dam prints saying that here.  They are gona love me after this.:-(
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 03-14-2008 15:10
Slow down.  I'm having a hard time picking up on your message.

Hobart & Lincoln, if they are giving certifications to welder who pass tests, in all liklihood have the PQRs and WPSs in place to support whatever they do for tests (or acceptable prequalified WPSs).  Those companies run PQRs all the time and they have a staff of competent folks to administer their programs.  Although I've never seen one of the WQTR you are referring to, I doubt it lists a PQR.  All of the records I've seen list a WPS.  The WPS is either prequalified (and that is indicated on it) or a PQR is referenced. 

What I am saying is that the cert they give, typically does not count when the welder goes to a company dealing in industrial or bridge work.  Most codes required the company to be responsible for testing employees.  Where there is latitude, the company must review, and compare the WQTR and WPS used against their own.  If the appropriate variables are covered, in some circumstances the company may accept the cert, and let the welder weld without further testing.  In my experience this is a rarity.

As for your situation, if a client says they want a welder certified in accordance with D1.1; it means they must be tested and certified in accordance with D1.1.  However they are qualified is irrelevant.  What counts is how they are certified.  I would look at the welder qualification section in D1.1.  I think it allows you to accept certification records from other groups as long as you verify the record covers all the applicable requirements of D1.1, and indicate acceptance (ie - your company certification) by signing the test record.

Charles
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-14-2008 16:51 Edited 03-14-2008 16:54
Sorry, I don't mean to seam excited, but it is friday and paddy's day weekend. Gona drink me some green beer tonight.;-) I was under the impression that a company can test and qualify their welders to AWS D1.1 in house, but in order for them to be technically certified they have to have it done at an AWS accredited testing facility which my company in not.  I was also under the impression that if you have been tested in house to D1.1 you are only qualified and not technically certified.  That's why I stated it means the same darn thing and the only difference is where you were tested.  That is only if you have an in house AWS CWI on hand for it to be really the same thing ( qualified and certified).  I understand that anyone can test a welder in house, but fluxuation could occur, so there is where the accredited testing facility would come into play.
     So let me ask you this.  If Hobart or Lincoln were only giving away pieces of paper from prequalified D1.1 procedures in the past and now they want to do downhill short arc, would it be beneficial for them to qualify a procedure for downhill short arc so they could hand out a mostly wortless piece of paper afterwards?  I mean wouldn't it be better to just have them weld a downhill short arc test plate and then give them a piece of paper saying "congratulations you passed a Hobart downhill GMAW short circuiting test plate" and have all kinds of fancy writing and their name on it?
Parent - - By chall (***) Date 03-14-2008 17:24 Edited 03-14-2008 18:37
"I was under the impression that a company can test and qualify their welders to AWS D1.1 in house, but in order for them to be technically certified they have to have it done at an AWS accredited testing facility which my company in not." 

As long as your company complies with AWS D1.1 and you certify the results (someone signs on behalf of the company accepting them); you are in compliance and your welders are "certified" in accordance with D1.1.  There is no requirement that the testing be performed by an AWS certified facility (unless a job specification or contract requires it).

"I was also under the impression that if you have been tested in house to D1.1 you are only qualified and not technically certified."

Negative.  Look at it this way (which is my take on it):  Certification means someone with authority signs the record on behalf of the company.  Qualification is a description applicable to a welder with the necessary skills.  Certification is the company's acceptance of the test and test results.

"That's why I stated it means the same darn thing and the only difference is where you were tested.  That is only if you have an in house AWS CWI on hand for it to be really the same thing ( qualified and certified).  I understand that anyone can test a welder in house, but fluxuation could occur, so there is where the accredited testing facility would come into play."

This is probably why some clients require the testing at an independent (accredited) facility.  However, requiring D1.1 certification does not imply that this the only way to satisfy the requirement.

"So let me ask you this.  If Hobart or Lincoln were only giving away pieces of paper from prequalified D1.1 procedures in the past and now they want to do downhill short arc, would it be beneficial for them to qualify a procedure for downhill short arc so they could hand out a mostly wortless piece of paper afterwards?"

I disagree that what they were handing out in the first place is worthless.  I believe it is based on a prequalified or qualified WPS (in either case - acceptable practices).  If it was previously based on a prequalified WPS, now they would have to qualifiy the GMAW-S WPS and the WQTR would have the value that any interested company placed on it.  In other words, if my company needed 20 GMAW-S (vertical downward progression) welders, and the contract allowed us to use welders certified by others, we could hire them if they were tested and certified by Hobart or Lincoln.  However, we would have to confirm that the test parameters for each welder are within the essential variables established by our WPS.

Furthermore, on the topic of the document being worthless -  Even if you have to retest a welder, at least if he/she possesses a WQTR you are interested in but can't accept because of the requirement to test them yourself, you can use it as a screening mechanism during the hiring process (ie - during the interview if a welder springs a WQTR on you, at least you know they aren't Be-essing about being a certified welder).

"I mean wouldn't it be better to just have them weld a downhill short arc test plate and then give them a piece of paper saying "congratulations you passed a Hobart downhill GMAW short circuiting test plate" and have all kinds of fancy writing and their name on it?"

That's kind of what it is in reality unless a company wants to accept it.

Charles - BTW, I'm kind of over the old green beer thing.  Beer - yes; green beer - not a chance.
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 03-14-2008 18:25
Hey thanks Chall for all the good info you posted.  This will be a great thread to reference when people have questions of this nature.  CHEERS!!
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Certification from a training facility or tech college

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