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Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Hydrogen Fuel
- - By 357max (***) Date 03-14-2008 21:00 Edited 03-14-2008 21:10
You have probably seen the hydrogen fuel cell for cutting applications at the AWS conventions. The inventor has powered a car using water. Tried to download a video clip from Fox 26 news. Didn't work I'll find a web site address an post later
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-15-2008 07:05
I have seen that clip. No mention is made of the energy to get hydrogen from water. The hydrogen in water HAS NO ENERGY. the energy that was in the hydrogen gas was released when it combined with the oxygen to form water. To get hydrogen gas from water YOU HAVE TO PUT THE ENERGY BACK IN TO IT.
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 03-15-2008 17:52
I remember the science experiment back in grade 9-10 science where separating hydrogen and oxygen from water using electrolysis. I don't remember on this hydrogen "generator" if there was a power cord to the wall with the machine. But according to the news clip this fellow just pours water into the tank. Wouldn't work too well at temps below freezing of course.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-16-2008 04:41
The news clip only tells 1/2 of the story. You can do the electrolisis experiment at home with a battery or a battery charger, or any suitable DC power source. My Dad showed Me how when I was a little kid. Water is the stable and therfore the lowest energy form of hydrogen and oxygen. As gasses they have much greater energy, to combine them all You need is a spark. BANG they combine [explode/burn] give up thier energy and water is left.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-15-2008 17:55
Thank you DAVE. 

Between the news paper pundits and the "Sky is Falling crowd", no one seems to remember basic high school physics. 

Fuel Cells will have their place.  I have an associate at SUNY Farmingdale (State University of New York) working on Hydrogen Fuel Cells.  I have held his fuel cells in my hands.  It is remarkable work and very exciting!

However none of the laws of physics have changed!

I am worried that the new "Bio - Fuel" craze will lead to a disaster!  Natural Gas gives off only 1/3 the Carbon footprint of gasoline, but is is also only 1/3 as powerfull per equivalent power unit of product!  The public is being fleeced!
Parent - By Root Pass (***) Date 03-15-2008 20:12 Edited 03-15-2008 20:32
I'll try to post the video. Must be too big I'll try to post it some where else and put the link on here.

http://www.southernairboat.com/photopost/showphoto.php/photo/19004/ppuser/875
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-15-2008 23:16
I am bit in the middle on this one. No the laws of physics haven't changed as we know them now. However; how those laws are applied seems to be the subject of debate.

On the bio fuel craze: your absolutely right. The world is about to get one gaint shoeing if they try to switch to bio fuel whole sale.

Hydrogen cells: all matter has energy, or it would'nt be matter. The question is how to convert it most efficiently to mechanical energy. The pie in the sky hopes for hydrogen cells will most likely end up as just that "pie in the sky" except for hybrid systems. There has been considerable cryogenic research into mass storage of LHG. Some asian countrys such as S.Korea and Japan have taken that one step further in that some hydrogen refueling centers have been opened. The primary hold back on hydrogen is that there is effectively no infrastructure for cracking, storage, and delivery.

As for power generation: I believe the only long term viable options are nuclear, both fission and fusion in conjuction with the so called green power such as wind and solar.
Thats not a matter of environmental concerns, it's a matter of efficiency.

As for natural gas: LNG / natural gas is the tie in between LHG and hydrogen infrastructure via the research being done into the most efficient means of storage.
However; as pointed out, it's apple for apple unit of energy is no equal to hydrogen or gasoline. Therefore it's not a viable long term solution either.

In my opinion; the answer lies in nuclear and hydrogen. Cheap and plentiful electricity, and you have the means of getting the hydrogen. Hydrogen for transportation, via electric from nuclear.
Will this happen?
Probably not, tell a few multitrillion dollar companies errr countries that your about to take away their power and money and leave them with sand and desert, and watch what happens.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-16-2008 06:43
I agree with Joe "thank you Dave" and Joe too....

There is no free lunch fellas...there is no water powered car......thats in the same category as the 100 mile per gallon carb on a 350 chevy....urban legend and myth.  It takes more energy in electricity/watts to remove hydrogen from water then the removed hydrogen can provide in btus when burned.  However hydrogen burns clean and in an internal combustion engine seems much more efficient then toting around 2000 pounds in batteries in an all electric high performing car....I would rather see accidents involving a tank of hydrogen in a car then a buttload of lead acid batteries anyway.  Hydrogen cells that produce electrical output could be a good way to go....there is a fella trying to market a fuel cell motorcycle right now that gets about 100 miles out of 1 gallon (I do not know if this is liquid or gas) of Hy with a top speed of around 60mph....there is some potential there.  (seen that on discovery find your own links dagnabit).  I could see solar farms or wind farms producing hydrogen for transportation fuels in the future.  But I like Hy for a fuel simply because its clean clean clean.  I agree with other posts here that biofuels are a big, giant white elephant.

Nuclear is good ...we just need to devote the engineering/legislation resources to make it more environmentally friendly as far as the waste products go.  A little public education would not hurt getting this going either.

One last thing:  several years back I watched a short clip about a university in the US doing a research project on removing some combustable or electrolytic chemical compound from seawater using a low wattage laser.  NO I am not talking about that movie chain reaction...this was for real and legitimate.  They were getting an better then a 50/50 energy conversion rate under lab conditions.  Did anyone else see that clip or know anything about it....I have been wanting to read up on it for years but do not have any clue where to look for information.

Tommy
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-17-2008 03:34
     Tommy, I don't know anything about that clip You are looking for, but I think in principle it must be similar to the one Root Pass posted where the guy is using radio waves.

    Of course as You understand more energy must go in than the product can deliver. My dear old Dad explained the 1st law of thermal dynamics [or the law of conservation of energy] simply: "You cant get something for nothing" as You say "no free lunch".

    I look at eBay regularly, and I have seen the electrolisis oxy/hydrogen jewlers torch set more thasn once.These have been around for a long while, but for typical industrial purposes oxy/hydrogen doesn't offer the performance of oxy/hydrocarbon fuels.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 03-17-2008 12:10
I have read many reports on hydrogen production that say it is so inefficient that one would be better off charging a modern battery than producing hydrogen with the electricity.  The hydrogen is really just an energy storage medium, just like a battery, and if there is an extra step (to produce it), we lose once again.  I vote for nuclear power and nickel metal hydride batteries over using electricity to produce hydrogen.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-17-2008 19:50
Unfortunetly, battery powered semi trailers are a long way off, or for that matter, so is a hydrogen powered semi trailer I believe.  Refurbishment and expansion of our rail system to the point of supporting cargo being shipped by them would be a monumental task, and one not likely approved.
There will have to be a middle of the road, that in my opinion should be hydrogen. Then there is the supply of nickel to consider. I don't believe the supply is big enough to support switching everyone to nickel based batteries.
All in all, I still hold that nuclear and hybrid hydrogen is the way to go.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-18-2008 05:52
       The usual lead acid car battery [when in good condition] is pretty efficient. You put in 120% of the energy that You can take out. This is the figure that the BCI [battery council international] uses in the rating formula.

         I read an article by William Rusher in the paper the other day. It seems that there are 2,500 scientists that have signed on in the group that says the human contribution to global warming is significant, but there are 19,000 who have signed on to the group that says it isn't. Kinda makes You wonder.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-19-2008 01:07
I have my doubts about global warming. However; I take the better safe than sorry approach. What we do know for sure is that it's only been the last few hundred years in which industrial output has hit the earth, and it's only been in relative recent history that the rain forrest have been clear cut. I don't know if that has anything to do with, or if in fact global warming exist, but I do know using the excuse of "it's not global warming" to keep pumping garbage into the air just doesn't ring right when technology exist to prevent it outright, or at least mitigate it.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-19-2008 03:30
I think it would be a step in the right direction if every roof had solar pannels [PV or heat collectors] or vegatation on it. I haven't heard many of the Carbon Cops lamenting the reduction in vegatation as a cause for global warming, but it is the other side of the coin with regard to atmospheric carbon buildup.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 03-19-2008 03:52
I agree with Dave that the hydrogen in water has no energy in the sense that it needs to be released from the water and that requires substantial energy in the process. Further, I would submit that current hydrogen supplies come from liquified natural gas. Also, I would comment in agreement that natural gas cannot hold a candle (sorry) to the energy in long chained hydrocarbon gasoline. I believe that we will use oil and gas until they are unaffordable. The same is true for nuclear. I read that 600 million tons of pipe went into GE design nuclear plants in the 70's (I helped build one) and I always wondered how much energy went into producing the pipe. When does it resemble an economy where we are only delivering pizza to one another?
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-19-2008 04:41
     Stinger, it is not so much that the Hydrogen has to be released [Yes it does] but that Hydrogen was "burned" when it combined with the oxygen to become water. Its energy was released in that process.
     Hydrogen from natural gas is a matter of seperating the hydrogen from the carbon. The hydrogen in natural gas still has it's energy. The problems with this method of aquiring hydrogen is that it (1) requires natural gas. (2) Unless the carbon is sequestered some how, there is no benifit to the environment over burning the natural gas.
     That same 600 million tons of pipe would have gone into power plants [with the same total output] if they were fired with natural gas, oil, coal, or even solar. As You know a nuclear plant is huge, with a tremendous output. You can get electricity by sticking a penny and a dime in a lemon, but it doesn't compair to a nuke plant.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-19-2008 16:50
They burn recycled CO to fire the burners at a blast furnace.  Why couldn't they recycle it and use it to put back into the reaction to get hydrogen out of natural gas.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-20-2008 05:20
        Kix, CO is half burned carbon, there is still some energy to be had. I have a less than high school education in chemistry. I don't know if CO is usefull in getting the hydrogen out of natural gas or not, is there some reason You think it will work? Natural gas is mostly methane, CH4.
         The point I was making in My privious post is that if the carbon removed from the CH4 is in a gaseous state, and released into the atmosphere, We are no further ahead than if We just burned the CH4.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-20-2008 12:29
Dave,
   I just meant that they could catch the CO and burn it somewhere back in the unit to heat whatever needs heating or to make the steam needed to get the hydrogen out.  The only emmisions I ever saw from a hydrogen plant in a refinery was coming from it's flare.  It was buring hydrogen and probably left over CO judeging by the color of the flare when it was dark out.  You couldn't see the flame during the day.  Small amounts of CO2 are produced in this process, but it's still CO2 we don't need.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-21-2008 04:54
When You burn the CO You end up with CO2. A few days ago I suggested that somebody smarter than Myself needed to come up with a process that made Hydrogen and structural carbon fiber from hydrocarbons. It probably isn't too far fetched, but I don't think We are quite there yet.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-20-2008 02:05
I read somewhere it was around a year of the output for those plants. However; The cost of producing the plant from A-Z was factored into it before it was built. Since most of them have been profitable for the companies that own them, I'd say it took less energy to make and run them Than they are putting out, as the energy sources used (nuclear fuel) yield more combined energy over time than it took to make them.

If you want to go back to the start of things, and calc out how much it actually took to make that plant, you'd have to look at the raw materials, the associated equipment and cost of making the tools to mine the same, then the associated material created by those tools, and on down the line until you have a completed plant. Start adding that up, and I'd say it probably goes upwards of 5 years of that plants output. To me, it doesn't make any sense to chase it that far.

No matter what anyone's opinion is, I don't see hordes of people lining up at the power utility demanding them to cut off their power. Nor do I see hordes of people wholesale ditching their TV's, their cars, nor anything else associated with a modern society. Without electricity, the world as you know it will come to a grinding halt. No more anything, not even toilet paper. So it's kinda pointless to worry about how much energy went into making a nuclear plant, especially when they are the only viable source of energy that with enough plants and restructuring of our infrastructure, could leave us energy independent.

While it's true the energy potential in long chained hydrocarbons is higher, there is a finite amount of that commodity and any other hydrocarbon in the world. Sooner or later, the country and the world will have to bit the energy bullet and drop the hydrocarbons cold preferably before we run out of them, and find ourselves digging through the woods for a piece of flint and stone.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-20-2008 05:28
       When We are out of coal, oil & natural gas We are out of plastic, asphalt, and a whole lot of other things that come from those fossil "fuels".  A good bit of Our fertilizer comes from them too.
       I am in favor of nuclear electricity. I have a plant essentially in My back yard, and several more a short drive away. Shouldn't everybody? All they need to do is bite the bullet and store the waste permanantly.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-20-2008 23:21
True enough about the others things fossils bring to us. All the more reason to drop them as a fuel as soon as possible, and reserve them for those and other purposes. When we are out we are out.

Also true about storing the waste permanently. There is no reason why this could not have been done already with modern tech.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-21-2008 05:05
     I think that if We reduce the ammountof petrolium We process We will be short on those other products that come from it. While they do manipulate the outcome of the cracking process with catylists, it isn't really an either /or choice, You get some of each of the products.
     A trendy saying going around is: "The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones" While this applies well to the stone age, I don't think it describes the petrochemical  age accurately.
     Surely We don't want to be the first to run out, but not utalizing the coal, oil, natural gas & methane hydrate that is actually "Ours" doesn't make sense to Me.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-21-2008 15:29
"Surely We don't want to be the first to run out, but not utalizing the coal, oil, natural gas & methane hydrate that is actually "Ours" doesn't make sense to Me."

I agree with this part.
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 03-25-2008 15:36
The Casper WY paper reported the Air Force is funding a coal to liquid ie jet fuel or diesel fuel plant at Mallstrom AFB Montana, five years or so to get it operational. '07 it was reported Pennsylvania state, West Virginia were working on this type of system. Hear anything from those two states & their coal to liquid projects? The same process being used in South Africa and that which Germany used to fuel their war machines prior to WWII. Supposedly the US has the most coal available in the world.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 03-25-2008 17:54 Edited 03-25-2008 17:58
There were several proposals for CTL plants in the US that got shot down due to global warming alarmists who are worried about carbon emmissons.  The premier company for CTL plants in the US is Headwaters (HW).   I lost about $20k when their stock recently tanked.  I went from $24 a share to around $45 a share in a few months, then all the way down to $13 a share within a year.  They had planned to build a $4 billion CTL plant in China.  It may still be going forward, but word has it the even China is worried about carbon emmissions from CTL.  (That is the pot calling the kettle black.)  They say that carbon sequestration will solve the problem, but it adds billions to the startup cost.  We need gov't funding to make it go forward if we do CTL with carbon sequestration.  They "fund" ethanol.  Why not CTL?  CTL is more efficient and cost effective than ethanol anyway.  There will be hundreds of welding jobs when CTL plants get built.  Especially with carbon sequestration.  A welding engineer friend is working on some of those projects in Houston already for plants to be built elsewhere.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-26-2008 04:32
     Our Govt. is funding corn/ ethanol and not coal/liquid w/sequestration because it has its collective head up its behind. In there You can't see the light.

     Leasing additional oil/gas & methane hydrate rights, on the other hand would generate Govt. revenue.

     These are needed changes, but I don't see it happening if Our "change" candidate becomes president.
Up Topic Chit-Chat & Non-Welding Discussion / Off-Topic Bar and Grill / Hydrogen Fuel

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