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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / FCAW Welding Test
- - By lazydwoodworks Date 03-09-2008 22:19
What is the proper test for FCAW on 3/8 plate? I need to know Voltage settings, wire speed and root opening. With a opoen root can I get proper penetration. 
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-10-2008 03:22
Well Lazy,

First off, if you are being given a test you should also be given a Welding Procedure Specification (WPS)  Within that you will be provided with a range of parameters that are allowed for your test.

Most FCAW plate tests (not all) are done with a backing strip. 

The wire feed speed and voltage with FCAW can be pretty dependent on the positon of the weld, the brand of wire being used as well as the shield gas.  If you tell us more we can tell you more.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-10-2008 14:21
No trying to be mean here but if you're asking that question you are not ready for a weld test. You need practice. In which case you would soon discover the answer to your question.
Parent - - By lazydwoodworks Date 03-11-2008 03:11
I am in my last semester of Welding School and the instructor wants us to do the FCAW plate test with no backing strap. Everything I have read and seen shows the backing strap or at least you grind the back side of the root and run another pass. I have tried it and can come close to get the proper penetration. I am getting frustrated with the instructor. Thanks for the help with the issue I will argue on Wed. for using a back up strap or at least let the class grind the back side of the root. Sorry for being vague in my question next time I will remember to fill in all the blanks.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-11-2008 15:22
Have you instructor jump under the hood and show ya how it's done.  What position does he want you to try and do this in?  If it's anything other then flat i'd be willing to bet he can't do it either.
Parent - By jsdwelder (***) Date 03-11-2008 16:41
Would have to agree with having the instructor show you. Which makes me ask, if he's asking you to do this, weren't you given a demo first? If not, shame on him. I would never ask a student to do a weld without showing it first. Running an acceptable root without backing would be tough. Not impossible, just tough. I know someone out there just read that and said "ah heck we used to do it all the time. Ain't nothin' to it." Yeah well,trust me it's tough. A WPS should spell out your variables for Volts and WFS but I do agree that a capable welder should be able to get real close on a piece of scrap. Just my .02
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-12-2008 21:34 Edited 03-15-2008 01:57
Kix, JSD Welder, Etc.

I used to teach welding as a consultant.  It is my policy to never demonstrate welding to any student.  I think it is counterproductive for the instructor to "Show Off" to a student.  ( I do not teach in county Vo-Techs)

I talk him / her through it.  If he storms out he gets no apology from me.  If he refuses to do what I ask, I tell his boss,  I tell him / her that they are professional journeymen, grown adults and they cannot expect me to treat them like high school or middle school babies.  As professionals, they are expected to give an all out effort.   His boss is paying a lot of money for my services.

Some students really try and are not throwing tantrums.   Those get treated with "positive reinforcement" and coaxing.  I still don't "Molycoddle", and I still don't show off.  I tell the student what he is doing wrong and I introduce a protocol to correct the incorrect motion.  (Such as "By The Numbers" counting off out loud.)

I also recognize that stuents get frustrated and anxious.  I generally change directions, take a long break,  or back up.  There is no point in completely alienating the student.  However, it is the student who has to perform.  It is his obligation to learn.  It is my duty to impart the knowledge to him and to help him develop the motor skills needed.  I have to be able to tell him what he is doing wrong and how to correct it.  I have a lot of techniques in my play book.

Not to brag, but I was almost always successful.  My students are usually better welders than I am by the time I am done.

I usually give them a qualification exam after the training.  No one has ever thought I gave them a break in the testing phase.  They feel like they are back in eighth grade with the teacher breathing down thir neck.  If the coupon JUST barely passes they get the qualification.  If the test just barely fails, they fail.  No breaks. If there are any "Aw Come-ons",  I tell them to go home and cry to their mommies.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-12-2008 23:22
Well, just like in welding,teaching has many techniques and many different ways to do one thing.  We all have our own preferred methods and what we think works best.  I will say that when you can put different things into words that a student can relate with, you are a good teacher.  I still think beginners need to be shown and their hand even held sometimes.
Parent - By jsdwelder (***) Date 03-13-2008 13:06
Dido to that. I would never want any of my students to think I was showing off my weld skills. In fact just the opposite. After I complete a weld with my students we always critique it together and I point out what I could have done better and drive home the point that while we should all strive for the perfect weld, we are all human. After all, there is no such thing as a perfect weld. While I do agree that some of my students can get the info I'm trying to teach with my words alone, I will always feel that seeing it done is far more productive for the vast majority of my students. But one thing a wise old instructor taught me years ago was do only one thing at a time-when you are doing, don't speak. And when you are speaking, don't do. I had in the past been guilty of this many times. Trying to talk to the students while in the middle of a weld. I think we all know how difficult it can be to understand someone who is speaking from under a hood. If you want them to listen to you, then speak. If you want them to watch you, then weld. Again just my .02 worth. Lots of ways to weld, lots of ways to teach, lots of ways to learn.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-14-2008 23:46 Edited 03-14-2008 23:48
Hi Joe!
Ummm.... What does "cirrect" actually mean??? You got me on that one because I've been through "hell and high water" looking through just about all of the dictionaries, and I cannot for the life of me locate the definition of this word "cirrect!!!"  I guess you'll have to show me how to apply it in it's proper context ;) ;) ;)

You will not be "showing off" if that's your concern... I just need a practical demonstration of the proper use, and application with this word "cirrect." If you don't mind. :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-28-2008 14:19
Joe,
  Kudos to you for having the skills to teach without having to be "hands on", also a very good point about "showing off". If hands on demonstrations are done in a demeaning manor, this "showing off"  would be counterproductive. But if done correctly, with a educational  and non-demeaning attitude, this is a very effective way off demonstrateing the process, and by no means showing off.
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-28-2008 17:45 Edited 03-28-2008 17:48
Despite what I said earlier, about demonstrating as being "Showing Off", I also agree with you.  In fact I have often demonstrated how to do what I call a "backwards P" weave for a 5/16 inch fillet weld. However, I only do this to job applicants at a bridge shop.  I didn't mean that I am not "hands on".

I acknowledge that I have been inspired by someone demonstrating vertical up and vertical down techniques to me.  It was helpful, but only because of my teaching experience, which enabled me to analyze the demonstrater's movements and see where I was remiss.  I have found that the instructors generally fell into four categories; 
-Those who show off and talk down to you. 
-Those who can weld, and rattle off the method of instruction, but cannot tell you what "you" are doing wrong, when you do it. 
-Those who can demonstrate it to you and tell you what you are doing wrong as you are doing it. (The best type.)
-Those who can weld but cannot instruct at all. (This is the most prolific type of instructor out in the shop floor.)

There is also a subcategory of all four of the above types who do not want to teach you all that they know.

I never was a "Great Welder", so I had to demonstrate as seldom as possible, and then, only in the beginning.  I often hold the hand of the student and guide his motion or correct a bad movement quirk.  I use the old Army "Count off" method and make the student say if out loud.   I also like to teach three students at a time. Two watch the one who is actually welding, then one of them gets a turn, and the original "Victim" gets to watch, then the third student gets to watch the second "Victim" and so-on.  This technique is very beneficial, especially if the students are already welders of some sort.  Now, when I tell the first victim to watch his drag angle, he is better able to recognize the error because he saw someone else do the same mistake.  This is almost like he instructor doing the demonstrating.   (I might be saying "arc length, arc length, arc length,arc length",, then switch over to "angle, angle, angle, angle, angle,  then switch over to too fast, too fast, too fast, too fast, too fast)

I feel it is a better form of demonstrating, because by the time you become an instructor, you no longer make the types of mistakes that a new student would do automatically.. For you to make that type of mistake, it would look contrived.  I also make students do a lot of "dry practice" (No Arc is lit) using the same technique.  This is done to teach basic motion and to educate the muscles for those repetitive motions.

The important thing is to be able to analyze each individual's capabilities and to react to that student's tics & quirks.  The other important thing is that you must be willing and able impart the knowledge skill and attitude, that each individual student needs to accomplish the desired training goal.

Finally, I said that I do not teach high school students.  My hat is off to those Vo-Tech instructors who can put up with that kind of environment.  They are often tasked with making chicken soup out of chickens**t. God bless them!
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-28-2008 18:23
AMEN to that, I do not have the patience or the skills for that one.
Parent - - By motgar (**) Date 03-11-2008 18:11
FCAW-S or FCAW-G?
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-11-2008 20:16
I'm willing to bet again that it's FCAW-G because they really don't teach self shielded FCAW out there to much these days.
Parent - - By lazydwoodworks Date 03-12-2008 01:00
Yes it is FCAW-G. We have to pass this test in Vert., Hor. and Overhead. I asked the instructor to help me with the issue and show me how it was supposed to be run. Well he comes over, looks at my plate and says to keep practicing, that I almost have it. That lead me to believe that he cannot do it. My morning class instructor, has never shown a welding process before he ask us to do it. The night class instructor always calls the class together and shows the process from start to finish and then answer any questions we may have. If I had it to do over again I would have taken all night classes. 
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-12-2008 13:27
You ought to tell him " I'm not going to do this until you show me how it's done" and if he says " then you won't get a grade" then you say " we'll see what the coordinator has to say about that".  Just kidding, we don't want anyone to get canned over this. Tell him that he shouldn't be telling you guys to do things that he can't do himself.  Say it just kidding around.  He'll sh!t when you come at him with that one. It might make him think about what he's doing to you guys.  He's either being lazy or out of line on this one.  I hated that about going to the tech school I went to.  Only a couple of the teachers could really weld but, they didn't have us do anything they couldn't do either.  I did hear the "Try this and this and this" all the time, but was never shown so your not alone.  So this seams to be happening a lot out there in welding education.  Don't worry man, you will learn a lot when you get out in the industry and you have the potenial to make bookoo dollars if you really want it.  Don't ever forget that even when you have a bad teacher that you can learn something from anyone.  This goes a long way in the welding industry.  Just keep your head down and get through school and decide what you want to do from there.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 03-12-2008 13:43
I can not imagine trying to teach someone to weld without showing them by hands on demonstration. I like to consider myself fairly wellspoken, this however has in no way been sufficient in the past for me. I am not a certified educator by any means but have in the past been tasked with in house training of welders, both current employee's as well as new hire canidates. I was never able to communicate the things needed by verbage alone and be successful, it always, even with the "natural born welders", required the old "get your hood and watch me do it a few times" routine. I suppose it is possible to teach someone to weld verbaly with no hands on from the educator, but I for sure am not that caliber of educator at this point in my life, nor do I think that I ever will be. As with the majority of my posts, this is just me and my opinion.
Parent - By lazydwoodworks Date 03-14-2008 00:06
Thanks for all the replies. I will keep trying and let you all know how it goes
Parent - - By fbrieden (***) Date 03-28-2008 16:24
I instruct 150 hours each (theory, principles, and applications) of both FCAW-G and FCAW-s
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 03-28-2008 16:49
I was fortunate enough to have it taught to me in highschool, but never saw it again in college.  My highschool welding program was amongst the best in the nation and had a teacher that cared very deeply about making welders out of his students.  Hats off yo you Fbrieden for caring enough to put that process in your program and make well rounded welders out of your students.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-28-2008 21:26
Every teacher has their own technique and often the technique is altered to address the needs of the person that is learning.

There is benefit to watching someone else weld to see how it is done, but welding involves hand-eye coordination that requires the student to burn wire to develop the motor skill necessary to weld.

I don't believe the instructor has to be an "expert" at every phase of our industry, but they clearly have to have a rudimentary understanding of the processes they teach and they should be able to demonstrate the basic techniques used to produce acceptable results.

None of the instructors I had over the years were professional instructors. Some people had the ability to work with me (and other) to teach me how to weld. Other men, while they were excellent welders, couldn't teach an ant to crawl. It's not that they wouldn't, they simply didn't have the aptitude for teaching.

The person that taught me how to weld pipe never picked up the stinger or torch. He talked me through it. Why he wouldn't pick up the stinger or torch was due to issues he had with management.

I did complete a three year apprenticeship program and I have nothing but great respect for the men that taught the welding classes. They did a good job of teaching those that liked to weld and were willing to learn. Those individuals that didn't care for welding got out of the classes what they put into the classes.

Like Joe, I teach for companies that bring me in to teach new skills to their employees. I have also taught welding part time at the community college level. I find that I have to use different approaches depending on the person I'm working with. Everyone has their own way of learning and it is part of the instructor's task to find out what works best. Considering the limited time I spend with each student, I have to figure out what approach to use pretty quickly. I'm not there to be their best friend, but I can't antagonize them either. Some people will tolerate a wise crack or two, while others erect a brick wall if you make a derogatory remark about their progress.

Teaching is not for the person looking for an easy job. It takes dedication on the part of the instructor to keep the interest level up and not to "burn out".

I don't believe I could do it full time. So, my hat is tipped to those of you that do teach full time.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By James Corbin (**) Date 03-29-2008 04:03
I'll agree with Joe and Al, I teach at the corporate level 1 to 8 weldors at a time, 3 is a good number. You adapt to the need and level of the students, explaining what to do and why you did it that way. All Instructors find out their own welding quality improves when they learn to verbally express the what, how and why. Also they learn from their students and pass this knowledge on to others.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-30-2008 03:17
To Joe, Al and James...

Although I agree with all of your approaches, and philosophies... I still don't know what the term "cirrect" means - Joe???;) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 03-30-2008 17:19
Henry

"Cirrect"??  What Cirrect?  Those are pointed Alto-Cirrrus-Cumulo-Nimbus-Stratus cloud forms.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 04-01-2008 04:12
BEAUTIFUL JOE!!! ;) ;) ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / FCAW Welding Test

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