I need help with hardfacing stoody VANCAR E

Date 03-25-2008 04:35 Edited 03-25-2008 04:42

http://www.mwsco.com/kb/kb_frameset.asp?ArticleID=84
https://www.mythermadyne.com/thc/en/US/adirect/thc?cmd=catDisplayStyle
the first article explains it fairly well.
ive done plenty of hard surfacing but i cannot speak to the vancar specifically.
i do know that when we run stoody 33 we run it so hot that the rod is bright orange half way through the rod and we take it out and let it cool before we use it for its second half.
otherwise the product does not bond very well to the parent metal. it seems to spray paint off the end of the rod as opposed to regular welding. long arcing it is the only way that ive found that it operates very well. you can do it with a short arc and colder it looks ok but when you do the cutting and etching for your pqr/wps there is incomplete fusion between the stoody and the parent metal. just like when you use stainless rod and it is too cold.
and yes overall heat input is very critical when welding t- steels.
$50/lb the customer pays the cost so if it is all done correctly then the cost is the cost. besides what does a new part cost, obviously its more than welding up the old one, or you would'nt have gotten a recommended procedure.

ps use very good breathing protection. the fumes will have an immediate affect on you as well as a long term effect on your nervous system. plus cancer is a given with stoody/hard surfacing rods.
i am sure there is worse but the fumes are amongst the most toxic in the industry.
i recommend phoning stoody they are very helpful. or email this guy directly. very knowledgeable and very nice
jhenry@thermadyne.com
darren

By PhilThomas (**)

Date 03-25-2008 11:26

Please don't make statements that you can't personally defend in public forums. Both these statements are blatently untrue:

"cancer is a given with stoody/hard surfacing rods."
(Can you provide a reputable source for this statement? Cancer is NOT a "given" with these rods if the welder follows simple guidelines)

"i am sure there is worse but the fumes are amongst the most toxic in the industry."
(Again - a reputable source for this data? I can tell you with certainly that the fumes are not "toxic" if the guidelines are followed. ALL welding fumes are dangerous and need to be treated as such.)

As always, a welder should use appropriate personal protective equipment and ventilation.

Read the MSDS and understand the dangers. http://www.thermadyne.com/IM_Uploads/DocLib_888_P6_L.pdf

As far as weldability, you don't list the diameter, but the amps are listed here: http://www.thermadyne.com/IM_Uploads/Literature/lit_389_Wce003.pdf

Try running it on the lower end of the listed range and work your way up - this will maximize the carbide retention and improve wear life. Remember that this is a graphitic-coated vanadium carbide rod. It is NOT going to weld like joining rods, nor sound like them.

If you have more questions, post them here and let's see if we can help!

By MDG Custom Weld (***)

Date 03-25-2008 17:05

Phil, while I do understand your point, I think that Darren was just trying to convey the importance of knowing the inherent dangers of the smoke plume from hardfacing electrodes. All SMAW electrodes give off smoke, some more than others, and I have used hardfacing enough to recognize that it's more than less. We know it's not limited to one manufacture or another, rather the alloys that make hardfacing what it is, "potentially more harmful" when not properly managed. Someone not familiar with the MSDS might not understand, but it is in the best interest of the operators to understand the MSDS and act accordingly.

By PhilThomas (**)

Date 03-25-2008 20:13

Perhaps I was a bit harsh and I apologize to all. But we all have a responsibility (myself included) to be careful what we say in public. Making potentially revenue-damaging statements about someone's product is never a good idea.

And in the interest of complete disclosure, clicking on my user name will let you know why I was so sensitive to the comment :)

Phil

By darren

Date 03-26-2008 02:36 Edited 03-26-2008 02:40

i didn't mean stoody specifically i mean all high alloy type rods and apologize profusely if my statement implied that stoody or any brand manufacturer's products are more or less likely to cause cancer or neurological disorders, so let me rephrase, all high alloy rods and consumables carry with them a very large increase of carcinogens and neuro-toxins. so the utmost care must be taken to mitigate if not eliminate exposure through breathing or having the fumes come in contact with the eyes or other mucus membrane

again i am sorry for my careless phrasing and would again like to state that stoody is a very responsible company and i have nothing but good things to say about my interactions with them.
my apologies directly to you too phil you have been helpful and did not mean to imply anything odious or disparaging
darren

By darren

Date 03-26-2008 02:49

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexavalent_chromium
http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-chart-elements/Ni-en.htm
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1280416
http://www.manganismfyi.com/
i could just post the search results and there would be a lot more to explore, the point is that there is some very toxic chemicals/metals within all welding types and even more so with high alloy rods. all precautions should be taken
darren

By PhilThomas (**)

Date 03-26-2008 03:35

You - and other posters - are ABSOLUTELY correct. You have to watch out for the big five: nickel, chromium, tungsten, manganese and cobalt. Unfortunately, many welding rods/wires have them. Gotta have em!

As an aside, even we "manufacturers" have to do the very same things as the welders who visit these boards. We just completed our annual air sampling to be certain that we protect our employees who MAKE the hardfacing products. In our weld lab, one of the recommendations was to re-design an updraft hood for a sidebeam welder to have the ventilation intake attached to the moving head, near the tip. It made a significant difference in the level of particulate as measured at the welders hood!

Safety is critical. Be informed....be careful...protect yourSELF!!

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-26-2008 03:08

Hey Phil!
FWIW, I drive around with one of Stoody's bumper stickers ;) ;) ;)
Whoopie!!! We're all gonna die!!!:) :) :) It's one of those inevitable things that happen in one's life, and believe me - I know quite a bit about it because, I've been close enough too many times to know what it feels like when one is about as close to dying as one can get.

Now as far as Stoody products are concerned, they have always been "top shelf" in my book - FWTW ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By PhilThomas (**)

Date 03-27-2008 11:11

Glad the Stoody products do what you need them to do. That's the best feedback I can get :)

[set shameless self-promotion on]
Tell everyone you know!
[set shameless self-promotion off]

We have another connection too Henry....Before my work at Stoody, I built submaries and targets....I mean aircraft carriers....at Newport News.

By hogan

Date 03-25-2008 17:09

thank you darren for the good info.

By PhilThomas (**)

Date 03-25-2008 20:15

Where the breaking ocurring? Is it between the T-1 and 7018, between the 7018 and the VanCar, or completely in the base metal?

By QuintManolovitz Date 03-26-2008 00:50

Thankyou all for your input, Yes I am aware of the toxicity of stick welding in general and ecspecially with this VANCAR the smoke is so thick you can barely see where your dropping the puddle. I'm sorry I did not list the rod diameter I'll have to get back to you with that info this is a gig that I only do on Saturdays. Phil thankyou for steering this thread back to the main question at hand the 7018 is laying down very nice and as far as the VANCAR goes I've only burned in 3 rods and that's why I'm here this stuff is so expensive I'm approaching with caution it's adhering just fine I think I need more heat I've just never heard a rod burn like this stuff It sounds like a little mini thunder storm every time a droplet comes off the end of the rod and lands on the 7018. Previously this outfit has been using Stoody 965G for hardfacing but I asked for the VANCAR E but after finding the cost I want to make sure and do it right. The 965G has been applied using a Millermatic 251 25V wire feed set at 300 using reverse polarity. Personally I prefer stick every time I go to use the MIG it's got one problem or another nobody knows how to take care of equipment anymore. Sorry I'm rambling the Hammers are completly fracturing at the the base metal and given some of these hammers are getting worn down pretty thin. I'll get some pictures this weekend to add to this post. To give a little history this is wood recycling plant that was purchased by a family member I'm just trying to help out because I care, there are three different grinders the one that keeps breaking hammers is the one that grinds up the dirtiest wood that has some earth and from what I hear the operator over loads the tub but still myself not being a metallurgist although I'd like to be am concerned about the heat affects on the 8514 T1. The hammer run about 1500 a piece there are 12 on the small grinder and 16 on the large grinder they weigh 35LBs brand new. The other problem is that the hammers hold knives that are held in place with steel wedges and the they are throwing the knives that are $25 a piece. Once again thankyou to all that respond.

By darren

Date 03-26-2008 02:56

how many lbs of hard facing is required to rebuild the hammers to usable/effective state
sounds like they are breaking in the haz of the build up and not in the hardface area. there are some super smart people that can tell you about that part and how to mitigate the problem.
darren

By PhilThomas (**)

Date 03-26-2008 03:37

Forget about the sound. Its not going to sound like 7018 or even 6010/6013. It should almost sound like bacon frying!

I'll wait to see the photos and see if we can offer more help.

By MDG Custom Weld (***)

Date 03-26-2008 16:22

I totally agree, they sound really different than a traditional sitck electrode. It does pop and spit globs of once in a while and sometimes fingernails bad. Proper chipping and brushing between passes will help to reduce inclusions between beads. Also inerpass temps can have an effect on the flow of the bead, keeping it low will help.

Phil, I did see your profile and that's why I tried to use some tact when replying to your earlier post.

By QuintManolovitz Date 04-02-2008 00:58 Edited 04-02-2008 01:00

OK I did some hardfacing last Sat. and after burning 5 rods I got the hang of it, 5/32 by the way at a 130 amps. This stuff just has a very fine sweet spot and I got some pictures but at the moment I'm just to computer eliterate to figure out how to stick em in this post. Anyhow I got another question, I am by the way as I call it a wanna be welder some day hopefully I can call myself one. The question is what is the best setup any of you has come up with for 1/8 inch aluminum I'm not sure what grade nothing exotic whatever they carry standard at the yard I've done the search and read about the dedicated stainless brush and the stainless steel wool for the filler and acetone, I've screwed around with my brand new shiny Miller Dynasty 200DX a little but I've got one project that I need to get through real quick so any sugestions would be greatly appeciated. I almost forgot I've got a green 3/32 with a ck150superflex with a #6 alumina cup. I love this forum but I've only got so much time to read through all these post, all my welding books (Modern welding) and a wife and three kids. Thanks.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 04-02-2008 04:52

Others will tell You more, but everything must be cleen, use argon, about 10 cfh, and if it turns out to be 6061 aluminum, You will ned to use filler rod, no autogenous [fusion] welding. Use AC, and I would suggest a balanced wave for starters. I don't know Your machine, but older machines would need continuous HF. Keep the filler rod in the argon shielded area, and keep the tungsten out of the puddle. If You dip the tungsten, grind off the contamination. The end of a green tungsten will get rounded, if it gets a ball bigger than the electrode size, You are using too much amperage. If You are really inexperienced, practace carrying a puddle on scrap, steel or aluminum. If You can gas weld, You will pick this up really quickley.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-03-2008 09:16 Edited 04-03-2008 09:18

Get rid of the Green (pure) tungsten and get some either 2% thoriated (for thin gauge aluminum), or ceriated Wulfram (tungsten)...

Yellow otherwise known as zirconiated are also good for aluminum when using AC output only, and must not be used with DC output... I prefer ceriated for most applications to use with the Miller dynasty, then go to their website and study up, practice like Dave suggested, and most of all practice improving your patience!;)

Practicing welding helps alot to improve one's own patience.
Finally like Aevald states in his signature: "Success is the reward of perseverance and persistence: keeping your mouth shut and your ears open doesn't hurt either sometimes!"

Here's the Miller website & links I was referring to:

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/articles83.html

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/tech_tips/TIG_tips/

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/improving-your-skills/tig/

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/articles43.html

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/articles15.html

All the best to you. :)

Respectfully,
Henry

P.S. Here's one link I forgot to include:

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/

By QuintManolovitz Date 04-04-2008 01:10 Edited 04-04-2008 03:10

Dave and Henry, thankyou for the advise and for the links I'm like a sponge trying to soak up all this technical data but I can only absorb so much at a time and your right about the patience thing. I want to be an expert welder now but that will take years of experience. Everywhere I go I'm allways checkin out steel structures and what not, basically if it's got welds I'm lookin them over it's like a disease. Thanks and I know practice,practice,practice. But I'm thinking time,time,time where is it.