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Hello Jeffrey, when you are reading this thread you need to understand that the majority of the wages that are being referrred to here are regarding rig welders. When these folks are speaking of $50 per, $85 per, $100 per, they are talking about bringing their rigs on site and providing the insurance/bonding, fuel, consumables, their lodging/meals, and everything that is required for the job. The employer isn't providing anything for the job. Thus when the comment was made referring to paying $20 it wasn't the same as the $20.00/hr. that you are thinking of when working for an employer at a shop or a factory. Hope this explains some of the comments to you a little more clearly. Best regards, Allan
Sourdough, while I hear and feel your sentiments, I have to agree with one of the original responses; it is the American way. I'm sure you don't pay sticker price when buying a new truck... or when you buy gasoline, do you go looking for the highest price at the pumps just so the station owner can have a little extra jingle because he's also paying more for his product? I'd guess not. It just happens that you are on the receiving end instead of the bargain hunting end. Sad the way things are, but truthful. By the way, the answer is "yes" I DO shop at the dollar store!!!! lol!
By Tommyjoking 
Date 04-02-2008 10:42
Edited 04-03-2008 01:09
I feel the pain.....I worked a rig for several years...not mine just working for a friend and a mentor. The American way..you bet I will not argue with that. BUT I moved 12 years ago and it was not far.....I looked for work in the shops, on the available rigs, in welding , machining, fabrication, and pure fitting. I laughed in the face of every strawboss and the wage they offered..... So what did I do I took up an entirely new trade to me and made my living....I went Ironworking with the unions. Point being ....there are gobs of skilled fellows who will work for nothing.....that does not have to affect me that much. I do one thing very well....I sell quality SKILLED labor at a reasonable price. Whether its fixing the mistakes of others or making sure a project flies right the first go round I know I will have a job to do somwhere at a rate that works for me.
Second thing Sourdough......one of the guys who I have the most respect for in this business.....well he charged what it was worth and damm sure charged what he needed. He shut down so many of the amatures that I was running a truck 120 miles out on service calls....your reputation is you business.....the other guys come and go .....but they all fade away.
I would not be scuffed up by it much....you know as well as I do they will keep coming and keep going.....who stays and makes it is what counts.
Best regards
Tommy
Jeffrey, rest asured that I am a firm believer in mentoring the next generation, informally or through the apprenticeship programs. When I was a tool & die apprentice, I learned from the journymen, and I never found any OF THE REALLY SHARP ONES to be protective of their "tricks". Some were not particularly good teachers, but none were afraid that I or any other apprentice would learn what they knew and push them out of their jobs. There were guys who were afraid that I might end up with "their" job, and they had reason to worry, just because they were not as great as they liked to believe. Somebody refered to these guys as: "A Legend in Their Own Mind"
I dont forsee that there will be no future in welding, but I would not be surprised if the guys like Sourdough find it harder in the future tomake what they have in the recent past due to the companies they work for becoming shrewd, cutthroat perhaps. I have seen what happend in the automotive OEM industry, the auto makers squeezed the life out of Delphi, Dana, and countless others.
I agree that there will always be jobs for the highly skilled and well diversified welder, or just about any other tradesman, so like everyone here is saying, be sure You are always one of those guys.
Hello Dave, nicely put! Best regards, Allan
Hello Dave,
Thank You for such an apropos reply. I will spend more time listening to Positive minded people. I will also keep my mind fixed on My future as a well rounded Combo Welder, and prospective CWI down the road. I have no need for Big Toys as many do. I am happy with Doing a Good Job, and making enough earnings to Pay the bills and travel this beautiful country of ours 2 weeks out of the year. What I learn now and in the future...I will pass on to those who need the help. Again, Thank You Dave!
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady
hey Jeff keep your chin up man. Don't let anybody get you down on life. The people in this thread are great guys, but they are only stating their opinion on life. Trust in yourself and you Never go wrong!!!!
norsky63,
Thanks for your post. I have no doubts that all will turn out for the best...because I will put in only the best that I can. You are right, the folks here are really good people. I have learned so much from so many. I sometimes get a little worried about who might be there to guide me as I make mistakes and try to learn from them. I'll never withhold good info and tips from a new welder in need. So far, no-one here has given me any advice that hasn't been good, and when placed into practice, it's always improved my welding. Thanks again!
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady
Everyone from the dead steel town I grew up in told their kids to NOT become welders. You made little back in the 80's and there was a glut of welders to replace you. Pay was LOW. The kids listened and all the welders are retiring now. Good for the trade, both union and non-union. The only thing that frightens me is the Third World slave laborer from Latin America. They can and will drive the wages lower over time.
I don't know if You can single out the Latin Americans. I would not think it impossible that a forign company like Hundai would come to North America and start building power plants, refineries, or any other major project with offshore built sub assemblies and their own work force.
Hi, Dave , good said it. Jaime
I singled them out becasue they are the people I see working on construction sites, being crammed 6 to a cheap hotel room, making little money and with fake ID, paying kickbacks to the company, getting hurt and being dropped off at the emergency room with no ID and told don't dare say you did it on the job or you'll be deported, etc. Don't think it's happening? Do a google search.
I understand Your pointin that latin americans are already here and working. My point is that in the future others with world class skills may be an equal or greater issue.
Last month it was the canadians this month its the latin americans, seems you hate everyone.
Actually, I would think that a young guy just breaking out might want to cut rates, get some work so that he gets to be known. If the quality of the work is good, then he can jack the rates up. IMO not a bad business model.
Griff, it would figure you would be from OK. That's where all the cut throats are coming from. Must be a different way of life down there.
The only farming I will be doing is at the funny farm after this boom.......
Been reading this thread for awhile and can't help but remember a post that makes it hard for me not to add my 2 cents.....
I believe the date was 2-25-08 and Sourdough said:
"I spose we have a misunderstanding. My rate is 85 all day. If I hire a sub, it's at 60. I have the reputation, and the hook ups in this area. You wouldn't have to chase the work.
That's pretty much what subs are paid here in the rockies. I couldn't afford to pay more.....I've gotten screwed before hooking guys up at a greater rate. Next thing I knew, they had shafted me and took my jobs. It's just so hard to find good, honest people in this oilfield........."
So have you thought that the Oklahoma welder may have been a sub -- after all $64 would be a little more than your going rate right?
But then again, if I read Sourdough's new post right - 4-1-08
"When I pull up and charge 85 an hour, it directly portrays the cost of living here. I am not greedy, that's just what it is - a boom town. How is it that someone can go to a different town, with a different economy - charge 20 bucks less per hour, then slink home and reap it, and sleep??????? It's because they don't have a concience, period. I can see when you are starving, but for God's sake think about everyone else in this area that may be running short at mortgage "
Maybe your cutting this sub short at mortgage time, right? cause he's furnishing everything from Sourdough 2-24-08 post:
"60 you supply everything including insurance"
So what are you really mad at Sourdough?
Are you mad cause the Oklahoma welder is making money in your neck of the woods or are you mad that your not making $25.00 an hour off the Oklahoma welder for your "reputation and hook-ups"?
Cause I bet your $60/hr sub isn't doing shoddy work and more than likely the $64.00/hr Oklahoma welder isn't either.
Just my point of view...
Yea, I think I remember reading those post to.
Just especially for ctdconstruction :
I specifically asked the welder in question if he was subbing. Anyone with some intelligence would automatically think to ask that. He was independent.
My knowledge of this patch, and the connections I have from my numerous years here is absolutely worth 25.00 right off the top of my hand's wage, period. And when that hand is busy up to 7 days a week if he wants it, that is also worth that 25 bucks per hour. In addition the tricks I know about this patch, and my willingness to teach someone these tricks is worth 25 bucks in itself. My hands don't have one bad thing to say about the Sourdough. I implore you to find anyone but the competition that would bash me.
Now with that said : How many times, when you first started, (flying blind in a different town), were you booked up through the week? I know when I first started chasing work I was one happy guy if I was busy 3 days a week.
A welder from a different state comes up here, cuts the rate and gets a few paychecks, that's it! Pretty soon nobody wants to have anything to do with him. And the reason is...............drumroll please.............he is not a welder and he knows it. He knows darn well that he couldn't hunt with the pack so he does what he can to get a couple checks to take back to the den, then tucks tail before the pack figures out what he's been doing. Okay, yeah it's an analogy, but very true. If you gotta hit the raod and not stop till you find some work, that says something about your character. It says that you are willing to directly steal food from someones table.
This guy is new to the area, new to the game up here, and possibly -even- ( big question mark) new to "welding". By the looks of his rig he was. How many hours or tickets a week do you think this cut throat will be cashing in while chasing rigs here in the rockies, especially from Oklahoma? I guarandangtee hes doing real good to get 40 hours in a week. I also guarantee that he is up all night sometimes worried to death about the fate of his family during a bad month........
See, I've been through all this crap. I know how hard it is to survive when you're a fart in the wind. That's why I offer a solution to that for my hands, AT 60 BUCKS AN HOUR, ALL THE HOURS YOU WANT................
My hands can make 4200 a week gross, (if they want to), period. Is that worth 25 bucks off the top for them? Why don't you ask one of 'em........... - Sully
Not at all! I just hear whining from your type!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bye.
Oh yeah, I thought I read you as saying ( a few weeks ago) that you were out of this forum. If I am wrong on THIS, feel free to correct my memory.
And, to any farmers out there, My heart goes out to you. No one else has the commitment, investment, risk, dedication, or anything else that I can think of at this moment.
Griff
Farmers are the biggest welfare cases in the nation. Your milk costs more than a gallon of gasoline and they get millions in farm subsidy payments yet people still love them. Corn just hit $6.00 a bushell. All of this is subsidized at a higher rate than oil could ever dream of.
you might want to do a little more research before throwing farmers under the bus. Less than one percent of farmers get those type of subsidies. Ted Turner comes to mind. The new farm bill will cap subsidies at somewhere arond 180K. If that seems like a lot go buy 2000 acres at $3500 per acre, then plow and fertilize for more money. Invest in a $200,000 tractor plus implements. Most of those high commodity prices aren't really helping the farmer. Seed, fuel, and fertilizer have all doubled or tripled. Those prices you wrote don,t account for that either.
If it make you feel better my subsidy check last year from the USDA was 128 bucks.
not to mention all it takes is one good hail storm and your crop aint worth nothing and your work was for nothing. I have alot of friends who farm and for 6 months of the year you could barely get ahold of them once they start seeding. I know i would want some type of subsidy.
Not to get off topic but check out this link on farm subsidy data. You can search by farm, farm owner, state or county. We have ONE dairy farm in my town that got over $300,000 dollar last year alone. Crop subsidy, milk subsidy, environmental subsidy, etc. All the while they are spreading millions of gallons of manure slurry and polluting the well water of dozens of homes. Plus they employ illegals who go on public assistance and cost my school district plenty. Check it out for yourself. You may be shocked to learn how much the simple poor farmer gets from your wallet via tax subsidy payments. All this while milk costs more than a gallon of gasoline.
Enjoy!
http://farm.ewg.org/farm/index.php?key=nosign
I have to agree, before one shoots down the farmer some reasearch would be good, and to knock down the backbone of the country and begrudge him the oppertunity to earn what is in all rights is his, thats just ungreatful.
You have some valid points. However, much of that subsidy money seems to run out before it gets to the small farmers. The large farm operations (many with the political clout) have managed to manipulate the subsidy programs in their favor.
Not an easy answer on this subject.
Griff
Sounds like you are at the funny farm now. Yes I am from Oklahoma and proud of that.
Sorry I have not been on the forum the last few days but, I have been working.
Griff.
Oh yes. This will be my last reply to Sour.... . A wise man once told me to "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience."
The last man I talked to that was cutting the rate was from Oklahoma.
If your talking to me you missed my point.
If your money is right with your subs then the Oklahoma welder you talked to isn't cutting the rate - you're over charging, it seems to me - cause you said yourself, you only pay a sub $60/hr and he has to furnish everything so your sub must be able to make a living on $60/hr while doing quality work. The other $25 you charge is for what, your "reputation and hook-ups"? cause you aren't furnishing anything.
So, why wouldn't the Oklahoma welder be able to make it on $64/hr and do quality work. The reason he can "undercut" you as you say is he isn't paying someone like you $25.00/hr for their "reputation and hook-ups". He's hustling and getting his own work what's unethical about that?
Making money off of someone elses talent, rig, insurance, and hard work at a rate of $25/hr seems a little unethical too me - but that's just me.
Maybe something like this could be set up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffey_MatrixExperience D.C./Sacramento/San Francisco/Los Angeles/Orange County/San Diego/Hartford/New York City
20+ years $425 $323 $434 $434 $434 $361 $378 $421
11-19 years $375 $285 $383 $383 $383 $319 $334 $371
8-10 years $305 $232 $311 $311 $311 $259 $271 $302
4-7 years $245 $186 $250 $250 $250 $208 $218 $243
1-3 years $205 $156 $209 $209 $209 $174 $182 $203
Paralegals $120 $113 $134 $118 $146 $115 $118 $121
I like that..........another cut throat cuts his own throat
I'm not a cut throat - I'm a PROUD 798 PIPELINE WELDER.
You missed my point.
Okay so if your point wasn't that I have double standards, then I totally missed your point.
Sorry, too many years behind the walls...............
tthomasyyz has got it!
What's my 20+ years of practical hands on welding experience worth?
85 bucks an hour?
betcha it is...........
I'd give you 85.00 an hour to weld my trailer hitch before I'd fess up 425 an hour for someone to talk for me.
I don't know if I'd be willin to do it if you sent some other guy out and he told me he was makin 60 and you got 25 for just sending him there.
Gerald
Thank you Gerald - my point exactly - not every customer is getting "Sourdough's Experience" for $85.00 an hour.
But remember my $4.25 gets me a JOB and BENEFITS and the Sourdough hand gets what???? A job.
Best rate i have found here in mississippi is 35 on the arm, 15 on the truck and 80a day per diem but its still real hard to find work, been running a rig since early 80's dunit all drilling rigs, sawmills, logging,piping if i could find someone that could keep me busy with all i wanted @60. per i would keep my hood down and my mouth shut. i know alot of rig hands and 35 an hour here is about all you get. 2 mexicans running around here with a old truck and a ranger 8 working for 20 bucks per hour for both of em, farmers and ranchers working the crap out of them, local sawmill also, what do you do, thinking about hitting the road now
Good Luck -- maybe Sourdough is hiring? But you might want to crunch some numbers -- you furnish everything including insurance for $60/hr-- if you can make it work then give it a try.
I get over $30 an hour in the union plus full medical: dental, prescription, eye plan, etc. I don't even have to work a full year and can bank hours for close to 6 months without having to go on COBRA. I've been a member for 8 years and have never lost my health insurance despite having no family members in the union. I also have a pension and annuity plus a vacation fund paid for by the contractor. I don't need to to buy my own truck and welding machine either. Gloves, repiratory protection, welding jackets and leathers, safety glasses (prescription and standard) are all provided by the contractor. Steel toe boots, OSHA training, safety training, and anything else required by the contractor are paid for by THEM. If I get hurt on the job, I have a union lawyer to represent me. OSHA issues and concerns are handled by a steward. It's far from perfect and abuses DO occur but it's much better than the alternative of being on your own.
I make $70K a year and have 5 months off (time off is by choice). I would welcome some of you hard working rig welders in my trade union. Give it some thought. We need welders.
When I'm not doing what I do now, I like boilermakin myself.
Well, I think the moral of the story here is that there are two different mindsets here. One thinks it's just "business" to go out and get the work no matter what you have to do to get it.
The other doesn't think that it's okay to do "whatever" you have to to get work.
Pretty simple, I spose.
ok ill get in this there was a time in my life when i would agree with sourdough on good work ethics not cutting throats and things of that nature even though this is a diffrent time dog eat dog world we live in there is always someone around the corner waiting to screw you, but i have a family now two little girls and if it came down to weather they ate or not bet your #ss i would do what i had to do to put it there and at 85 an hour i doubt there is a shortage at supper time so the okie might be needing to feed his family i doubt you know his circumstainces and if you are doing well enough to flaunt how much you do and make then why begrudge an okie from making some money kinda sounds like the old western land barrier and free grazin lol but i can understand you have every right to be pissed if he is takin away your business but as a human stop and think about what he might be going thru the way things are there is not good money in welding everywhere and some people might starve to death welding in some plant hell i might be in your neck of the woods soon but anyways as someone else says on here thats just my 2 cents if i was doing well as well as you i wouldnt begrudge someone else making money doesnt that fall under greed if you have enough on your plate but you dont want the other guy to get any
Mody, that's very well put.
Thank you for your diplomacy, and you're right in saying that everyone needs to eat. There is enough work to go around, so why not get the going rate for your work. Everyone in this business, not just the welders, knows what it's going to cost to have some work done by a welder.
My main point in this conversation is this: I think it makes the rest of us look like greedy dirty bastards when someone charges 20 bucks less for the same job that we are charging 85 for......
And yes, I am guilty of driving 10 miles out of my way to get a better price at the fuel pumps. . . . . . . . . . . . oops.
SD
I bet that guy would love another 20 an hour.
Maybe someday he will be as good as you and feel able to leverage it.
Maybe somebody with a necktie told him to take the 65 or just go back home, so he took it. Sure he could have risked it and said, "no way man; Ol Sourdough tells me I'm worth 85 and I won't take a dime less"
It takes many years experience to build the kind of gravitas to make that kind of stand.
But man oh man, when you do it and it works, you sure wonder why you worked for beans bofore........
**** i drive further than 10 .20 cents a gallon adds up on 36 gallons on the truck and the welder too p.s. SD you really opened a can of worms here lol ive never seen a thread grow so fast
sourdope,in my neck of the woods if you rolled up on me with your "twenty questions crap" you would have big problems.Also it's called crying "poor mouth"when you brag about your rate being charged "untill I crack the first beer" on one hand and being robbed of work the next.
let me guess, you are from Oklahoma..............
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