Very large Fillet Weld

Date 04-15-2008 03:51

I doubt this will be a record, but We commonly used 1" fillet welds building weldments from heavy plate, and ocasionally larger. I didn't have to weld them as it wasn't My job as per the union. If done by SMAW they used 7024 "base ball bats"

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-15-2008 04:40

Hello Dave,
My base metal plates are 10" in length x 5" in width. Vertical plate is off-set almost to the back edge of the horizontal, and then tacked in a Tee joint configuration. I am required to produce a Fillet weld 2" up the vert and 2" out on the horizontal. Giving me an approximately triangular weld wit a weld face of almost 3' using the pythagoran Theorum to get this, with each leg being 2". The root to weld face thickness will then be approx 2". This beast is going to take about 2 5lb boxes of 5/32 E6011 Rod...Maybe more. I have 4 boxes just incase I need them. I burn down one 14" rod with each pass Just to be sure I'm laying alot of filler metal. I've seen other students take up to 14 class hours to accomplish this test. I put down a root pass with a E6013 rod because the slag just peels off very easily, and I didn't want to encounter any trapping of slag in the root. This has been a problem for some of the other students.
My reason for starting this thread was, I felt this is one monster of a Fillet weld, and wanted to see what others might have to say about a weld of this magnitude. Thanks for answering
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-15-2008 08:39

We do something similar.

We take 1/4 inch A36 carbon steel and make an "X" shape 10 inches long. The 10 inch length garuntees that with 1/8 inch electrode the welder will need to make a restart every stringer pass :)

We usually require one horizontal stringer weld to fill 1/4th of the project... Stacking beads horizontally and keeping that triangle is important to the heavy equipment manufacturers in our area.

Than two vertical quarters... One stringers and the other weaves, Here we allow 5/32 electrodes after the 3rd layer. Some employers require stringers and others allow weaves, best to be able to do both.

One overhead layer.... all stringers.

When the X is full to the edges (it takes a while) we section it with a band saw and etch the cut faces with amonium persulfate... Slag and porosity are easily seen but what is really cool is that every weld pass you make is evident also...

Students really like making these boat anchors. I think they are great practice.

We do this project with FCAW also.

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 04-15-2008 09:53

Jeffrey,
Just be careful using a 6013 for your root run or first pass. The slag may peel off easily but it is what is under the weld that is critical.6013s are not a deep penetrating electrode, you may well have been better off putting in a small ,hot 6011 run first which digs in deeper and will ensure sound fusion at the root.
Good luck with the project,
Regards,
Shane

By Mat

Date 04-15-2008 11:38

the production test we did back in "c" level welding school ranks up there. It was back in 2003 or so, so the details are fuzy, but 100 or so 1/8 or 5/32 rods uphill on 1 1/2" plate ranks up there.

By Northweldor (***)

Date 04-15-2008 12:17

I recall doing a test similar to this during apprenticeship, but we used a different SMAW rod in each web of the X. (6010, 7018, 6011 and 7014) I think they called this a "Fiery Cross".

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-15-2008 14:06

Hello Lawrence,
My college's previous instructor used to do the X test all position weldment. But, i guess our new instructor figures that over the past 4 months, we have burned enough rod in Flat, Horizontal, Vert-down, Vert-up and Overhead to be well aquianted with the requirements of each. So he figures this 20+ lb slab of fillet weld should be adequate to prove our skills in SMAW. Anyway I'm kind of glad I don't have to do this in Overhead, as I don't much care for that position. Not that I can't weld in overhead...just don't like it much. Thanks Lawrence.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

PS. I figured this test would help hone my skills in build up, and might have some application in the heavy equipment field.

By OBEWAN

Date 04-15-2008 11:52

1 inch on a large front end loader bucket pivot tube flange at Marathon LeTourneau when I worked as a welder.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 04-15-2008 13:13 Edited 04-15-2008 13:17

This type of "test" can be used to verify your ability to deposit sound weld metal. The more passes, the more accurate the reults would be since the sample is so large. This was actually the 1st test weld I made in school many years ago. I was in the booth for a week or two just filling up the angle with 6013. After that, I was hooked.

One of the skills this can help to develop is bead placement. Once you have the basic hand eye coordination to deposit a single bead then the only difference between that skill and the abilty to make a weld free of discontinuities is bead placement. When where and how you deposit additional beads is related to the previous layer.

In a multipass weld you have to be careful to not create a valley or groove that is too deep to allow the weld to fuse properly with the underlying layers. The illustration below shows some of what I am talking about. If the green bead had been placed closer to the other bevel, it may have formed a valley causing the next bead to have difficulty fusing with the underlying layers.

So you are practicing to make a super weld ! The same skills developed filling a tee joint are used when filling a groove joint. The tee joint has more angle between the faces than a groove joint and is somewhat more forgiving but the idea is the same.

Have a nice day

Gerald

By aevald

Date 04-15-2008 17:16

Hello Gerald, really nice graphics! and a terrific example! Best regards, Allan

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 04-15-2008 17:31

THanks. I am working on one with the fillet weld example but didn't have it done yet.

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-16-2008 03:54

Gerald,
Thank You for the Graphic presentation and the advice concerning bead placement. I have onlty put down 7 passes after filling in the root to a decent thickness. last night, I spent part of the class period finishing up my last part of overhead welding, before starting this fillet weld.
As for my large fillet weld, I am placing my stringers in such a way as to bring them out so that the face of the weld is as flush as possible, and weld is taking on the approximate triangular shape it should exhibit. This being said, I have a long way to go until this beast is finished. I'm in no hurry and I am laying down pretty large amounts of filler metal as I proceede out from the root. I made one pass that had a few voids at the start against the vertical bsae metal. So, I proceeded very slowly Along that portion of the bead to make certain I filled those voids with plenty of filler metal. I am watching my weld pool to be sure I am penetrating the previous bead sufficiantly. And of course I am hammering ang brushing after each pass, and quenching every four or five passes. I am also running each pass in the opposite direction of the previous one. I was not instructed to do this, but when my instructor observed my interpass pattern, he stated I was the first student in his 2 yrs at this school to approach it in the proper manner. Well, Thank You for your Instruction. it will serve me well.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 04-15-2008 16:35

We have had to do some 1.5" fillets before- those were done with many, many passes of FCAW. Yes, other processes would work better but we didn't have very many to do. Normally, our fillets are no larger than 1/2" with the vast majority being 1/4" and 5/16".

By aevald

Date 04-15-2008 17:15

Hello Chet and others, there is a manufacturer in Tualatin, Ore. called Pierce Pacific, they build logging booms and attachments as well as crane carrier trucks and assemblies. Much of their work is welded in very large positioners which allows them to trough most of their fillets(flat position), the last I knew they were running 3/32" dual shield and laying in some of those "monster" weld passes. A bit more to think about. Best Regards, Allan

By hogan

Date 04-15-2008 17:35

allen, i've spent many months out there UTing booms.

By aevald

Date 04-15-2008 18:26

Hello Hogan, are they still building the crane carrier frames? It has been probably 20+ years since I have been to their facility. I believe that they boasted at that time as being the manufacturer of the largest mobile rubber tired crane platform. Best regards, Allan

By thirdeye (***)

Date 04-15-2008 19:32

Jeffery,

Some of my clients do some pretty large fillets, especially at the ends of gussets where unequal leg fillets up to 2X3 are common. Most are ground smooth so it's hard to judge size, but when you see one cascaded, you can see it takes a lot of passes and time.

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-16-2008 04:23

thirdeye,
Thanks for the pics. In the first photo, I used the bay doors in the back ground to judge the actual size of that weld. Wow! That's a Big one, and very well done. I hope to be that proficient one day.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By thirdeye (***)

Date 04-16-2008 18:01

Jeffrey,

Here is the other picture I was looking for....It's a combination of welds on a support plate. There is a partial penetration groove weld on top, a 1" fillet underneath (hidden from view) and a 1" x 2" unequal fillet at the end of the plate. Again all ground smooth.

~thirdeye~

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-17-2008 03:38 Edited 04-17-2008 04:58

thirdeye,
Thanks for the pics. Very nice welds. At present I just got in from weld class and I am plumb worn out from repetitive passes that seem to have no end in sight. Not really, I am approximately 1/3 of the way completed and am appreciating a well defined triangular fillet weld. it took some time to place the beads properly to allow for the inter-passes to begin to form a good appearance. This ones a BEAST for me, as it is the largest fillet I have had to produce thus far. I am not rushing it. Trying to hurry just for the sake of getting it done, only leads to a poor weld. If it's worth doing,and spending such an amount of time doing it....It's worth doing correctly. I hope only to see no discontinuity in my weld, when it's cut into several sections. I really didn't realize the amount of time it would take to complete this particular fillet weld. it will all be worthit in the end. I'll be able to inform employers that I can do large fillet welds.
Again, thanks for the pictures and information in previous posts.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By thirdeye (***)

Date 04-17-2008 15:54

How does that go?

"If you can't find the time to do it right the first time, how will you ever find the time to do it over again?"

~thirdeye~

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 04-17-2008 16:30

I didn't see anyone mention using a Bug-o machine; if I missed that I apologize.

But...whenever you have long straight welds such as we can see in the posted photos, a Bug-o machine can make your life easier. It doesn't get tired.

If you have not used one - basically, you can mount a welding gun on the machine, set it so the passes go where you want them to, and let the machine take care of the travel for you. The welder still has to watch over the process, clean slag between passes, and point the wire according to where you want the maetal to go. However it gets you out of the smoke/fumes, out of the heat, and your arms and shoulders don't get tired.

It will not work everywhere, but you would be surprised to see how many places you can use one.

By thirdeye (***)

Date 04-17-2008 18:49

Chet,

Good point. Some of the welds in that picture I posted yesterday were made with a Bug-O. As was this one....

Although I take a lot of photo's of welds.....I take some of welders too.

~thirdeye~

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-18-2008 02:03

CHGuilford,
Hello, I was wondering about this "Bug-o Machine". Is this an industry name or a manufacturers' name for it. I know it isn't applicable to my purposes for a Fillet weld, and wouldn't be allowed to sue it if was. I would however, like to know more about this machine and it's usage. How widely is it used it a fab situation?
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By aevald

Date 04-18-2008 02:21

Hello Jeffrey, Bug-o is a manufacturer of welding related machinery. They make all sorts of welding and cutting related equipment. Google them or possibly try www.bugo-o.com and take a look at their inventory, you will see some of what Chet was referring to there. Best regards, Allan

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-18-2008 02:49

Allan..Hello!
Been awhile since we corresponded. Things are progressing far better than I could have even hoped for. Again I thank You for Your part in this.
As for my question about The "Bug-o Machine". The name just threw me. I actually laughed out loud when I read it. It sounded like something You might see Billy Hayes selling on TV, along with the "Samurai Shark" or "Oxy-clean". LOL!
Okay, Now I know it is a Proper designation, and i will look up the link You provided me. Thank You very much.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-18-2008 03:36

Allan,
I looked up the site. Very cool. The situations to which this system can be applied are quite broad. I see how it can be very useful in Ship Buildin and work on large diameter Tanks and silo's. Thanks.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By aevald

Date 04-18-2008 06:06

Hello again Jeffrey, the name could possibly throw some folks because it IS rather comical in a sense. Bug-o does make some very unique and rather interesting products, in our shop we have one of their programmable shape cutting machines, what makes this unique is it's portability. Most machines require the part to be brought to the machine, in this case the machine is brought to the part and by using either the magnetic hold-downs or the suction cups you can set up to cut just about any sort of material. I'm just not real fond of the programming language and process for programming. It can also be outfitted with a welding gun or other type of welding head to make repeatable welds. Talk to you again later, regards, Allan

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 04-21-2008 01:07

Sorry I didn't get back to you until now I've been very busy and have only hit the highlights - to relieve brain cramps- so I didn't see this until I actually logged in and saw my notifications. At any rate Allan has answered what you asked about.

Now...If you liked the name "Bug-o" then you should like "Moggy" as well! Same idea, different company. the name escapes me the moment but Google should find it OK.

By jrw159

Date 04-18-2008 11:56

Jeff,
There is also a direct link on the AWS home page at the bottom third from the left. I had the same reaction when I saw it. Quite the interesting name. Neat product as well.

John

By welderdude (**)

Date 04-15-2008 21:35

you may very well be doing that test in all positions, including overhead! I know if I were the instructor I'd have you do it in every possible position. most structural welding tests are two parts: vertical and overhead. they figure if you can weld in those two positions then you can weld in any position...and it's true.

anyway, it's great that you're laying down such a big fillet weld because like somebody else said on here, the more passes you have tested all at once, the more probability there is of a mistake...so think of how good you'll feel if there aren't any problems in your massive 2" weld!

by the way, in the real world of welding, employers don't expect you to make a 2" fillet weld with a stick welder, so don't worry about spending the rest of your life staring at welds that have taken you a year to fill up! on that size weld it's not economical to stick weld.

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-16-2008 04:14

welderdude,
I'm gonna feel great when the cutting is done and I see that I have done well. So many Passes to go and so many chances of getting cramped up and losing my attention. H*LL, I'm not going to dwell on what could go wrong...I'm going to what I've done every day I've been in weld school, that is strive for the best weld possible!!! Oh, to be honest with you, I'd rather FCAW this big fillet and be done with it.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-16-2008 08:13 Edited 04-16-2008 08:16

Hi Jeffrey!

I've been a bit busy lately which is always good for me so, I apologize for not being around in the "Forum" lately. :) :) :) The wonderful aspect of having this forum is the fact that there will always be one or more individuals that will always give anyone sound advice, good suggestions, and some interesting experiences that will cover most queries here ;)

Anywho, Bucyrus, Manitowac, P&H to name a few constantly deposit rather large multi-pass fillet welds... Any decent size shipyard in the world does the same only - even more often!!!

The tanks inside some of these huge vessels will have many, many large leg sized (1" - 4" on occasion) fillets if they have many baffles included into the design, and in the years before FCAW became an acceptable alternative in Quality comparison to SMAW, most of the welds were deposited with 3/16th", 1/4" size "baseball bat" SMAW electrodes so, patience was a necessary virtue in completing the required final weld sizes on some of the larger leg sized joints. :)

On some of the larger columns found in the design of modern "skyscrapers" or even some bridge sections - one will find even larger size multi-pass fillet weld deposits, and in some cases the size deposits are on metal thicknesses of more than six inches!!! Some are even thicker than that!!! Joe Kane can describe some aspects of the freedom tower now being built near ground zero which they use some really thick steel!!! I believe Lawrence got to see some of those pics as did I awhile back. :) When I find the pics, I'll post them if Joe agrees to let me do so just out of respect to him for providing them to us.

I've personally deposited two inch fillets of Grade 2 CP Titanium many times when I worked back in the day with Titanium Fabricators in NJ, without chambers or tents that were 100% RT'd with GTAW all the way in every position possible, and believe me you, patience was most definitely a requirement to complete those joints. ;)

Keep asking those questions Jeffrey, and become an all consuming "sponge" yet never forget, to always remain to be teachable which is my own mantra! ;)

P.S. Nice pics Thirdeye!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-16-2008 10:52

I have a few pics that are several years old now, but they are groove welds(full pen) rather than fillets, but in anyway, they have several 60# rolls of FCAW wire in the joints.

The shear lugs that are full pen to the base are 4.5" thick.(just to give you some reference to scale)

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-17-2008 04:53

John,
Sorry about responding so late in the evening. I got in from welding Class a bit late tonight. I am Hitting that Big Fillet weld with great vigor, and my body is sore from standing in one positon for hours running pass after pass. Got it approximately 1/3 of the way done tonight. I hadn't really anticipated the amount of work that would be required to complete a weld of that size. I must say without hesitation...it is work!
Thanks for the pictures. Now that's what I call a welding shop! I'd love to work in a shop like that...not all pretty and sterile, Just metal, machinery and lots of sparks. A liitle slice of heaven for me. I just can't picture myself welding on a production line. The same process and the same weld day in and day out.
Thanks again!
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Gardy

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-18-2008 10:37

In the bottom two pics...the guys are using carbon arc to gouge out the second side of the TC-U5b groove welds.

We use 3/32" diameter FCAW E70T-1 w/ 100% CO2, somewhere around 425-450 amps, 29-31 volts. The FCAW can pour alot more filler material in the joints than SMAW can.

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-17-2008 04:27

Henry,
I have spent enough time in this forum to form some really good dialogs with many people. I greatly respect the opinions of so many, and You can be sure that You are in that group of people I hold in the highest esteem.
I must admit that I feel a bit out of place Tackling welding School at the age of 42. I guess that stems from the fact that I have so very much yet to learn and I want to learn to be the best I can be. I fear that time will not afford me the opportunity to come close to the volume of knowledge You and others have attained. However, I will not stop with the questions and this forum challenges me to think, so that keeps the old noodle in fit shape. Even if my body is going to hell in a hand basket.
I actually came home sore and stiff from welding class tonight. All I did was stand in one position for four hours Building up that fillet weld. But then again, my determination wouldn't allow me to stop early, as many of the 20 something group does. They outright complain of being tired and sore. One of the students actually asked me to quit early because i might over do it, and get sore arms and back. I guess it comes down to work ethic. Which so many of the young guys never learned to develop. Well Henry, I've rambled on long enough and only dedicated one sentence to my Fillet weld test. I would certainly like to see the Pictures of the Freedom Tower projects. I Wish You a Good night.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By jon20013 (*****)

Date 04-17-2008 09:57

Although I've never seen any out of the ordinary sized fillets in real life (1 to 2" maximum) I have seen some old Westinghouse drawings that called out 8" fillets!!!!

By welderdude (**)

Date 04-17-2008 20:35

I was teaching a guy how to weld and he was ok until I had him do a groove weld on 1" plate overhead. he said he's been into weightlifting before and he's never been as sore as he was after the overhead workout I gave him! he messed around with that weld for about 4 hrs before he decided he couldn't hold his arms up anymore to keep the rod steady.

most people want to learn how to pipe weld because we all make it look easy. sure, it's easy after a few years once your muscles build up endurance. it's probably a lot like holding a 1/2 lb pen in your hand and having to make nice, neat Z and straight line patterns above your head, but they don't realize that.

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-18-2008 02:26

welderdude,
I can attest to the shaky arm syndrome. I had no idea how much effort it takes to stay steady and deposit a good bead in over-head. I decided to drape the stinger lead over my shoulder to aleviate some of the weight. One wouldn't believe how heavy that lead can become after a few hours of welding. I am a single hand welder an don't like the feel of using both hands...don't know why it's like that for me, but i do have a secret weapon in my arsenal...I can weld with both hands. Mostly left handed, but when the need arises, I can still lay down a decent bead with my right hand. Either way it doesn't take away from the almost uncontrolable shaking that can occur towards the end of a weld. I don't care how much weight lifting a person does. that only makes the muscle they have stronger. In my opinion all that does is cause the weldor to initially believe that it's gonna be a cake walk...until they have held that stinger over their head for hours of welding and only stopping to change out rods. I believe it takes time to condition your muscles to stay steady in an elevated position. I can only say this because i have experienced it.
BTW, what were the full dimensions of the 1' plate you put this guy to task on?
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By welderdude (**)

Date 04-18-2008 21:59

I think they were 8"x6"x1". that's about the standard size for any plate test.

By ctacker (****)

Date 04-24-2008 04:14 Edited 04-24-2008 04:26

here is some 1-3/4 " fillets. not shown are some 8" grooves that are on curved surfaces so no machine is able to weld! and we can only put 6 layers of weld on a joint before going to the next/other side.
these are dredge heads. we have a numerous positioners with our biggest about 20' square. I'll try and get the specs tommorrow.
Edit: the base ring is 8" thick to give you an idea of the size
If memory serves me right, its bid at 690 hrs just to weld one of these, someone else puts them together!

Attachment: P1010647.JPG (688k)

Attachment: P1010645.JPG (573k)

Attachment: P1010643.JPG (597k)

Attachment: P1010641.JPG (563k)

By Jeffrey Grady (***)

Date 04-24-2008 05:13

ctacker,
Nice work! I feel pretty confident that I would be able to produce a similar result...that is given a little time on something a bit smaller. I'm feeling pretty charged right now after getting this large fillet of mine done properly tonight.
Thanks for the pics. I'm begining to see from the many pics sent from others in the forum that my time spent and hard work applied to my SMAW portion of weld school does have real world application. I'm not feeling as apprehensive or nervouse about my welding abilities now. Thank You for Your response.
Respectfully, Jeffrey S. Grady

By ctacker (****)

Date 04-24-2008 05:35

got some large welds on these also, the AOD vessel in the first pic has the lid already on the trailer if you look close enough you'll see it!

Attachment: P1010095.JPG (71k)

Attachment: P1010147.JPG (79k)