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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Cast Iron Trouble
- - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 04-17-2008 13:05
I have done a lot of cast iron repair in years past without any real problems.  Well, this one has me stumped.  I have a pair of manifolds from a Mastercraft ski boat that was not winterized properly.  They cracked along the top edge nearest the head.  The owner tried to fix these with mild steel so they were in bad shape when I took it over.  I was able to remove all of the existing weld deposit and welded them with 65Ni SMAW rod.  I took the part up to 400f and welded the areas of concern, penned it out and put them over the burner to cool.  Every 15 minutes I would reduce the temp of the burner by ~50f.  Then when the part was about 150f, I pulled them from the burner and wrapped them in heat blankets.  The next morning I removed them only to find some small cracks along the toe of a weld.  Thinking that it was just the nature of the beast and some additional cracking could be expected, I repeated the process.  The second time after everything was cool I had a few transverse cracks that propagated further into the cast away from the weld.  By now I was thinking that I was missing the mark for preheat and cooling rate.  So for the last attempt I took the parts to 550f, went to 99Ni rod, and extended the cooling cycle by a few hours.  Again the same result with just one or two transverse cracks going into the base.  By now I'm thinking I can not get it right, and the last thing I want is even the smallest crack that will fill the engine compartment with water and put someone's boat at the bottom of the lake. 

It's hard to make that humble call to the owner and tell them I could not fix the parts, but for liability reasons I chose the high road and bowed out gracefully.  I of course did not change him for my utter failure, eating the 30 or 50 bucks in rod and unknown amount of propane, chalked it up to good experience, and told him that they were useless when he gave them to me and I returned them to him in the same shape.  He was not upset about the whole thing, but both of us were a little disappointed.

So, what should I have done different to make this a sound, successful repair?
Any suggestions?

Mark
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 04-17-2008 14:35 Edited 04-17-2008 14:38
Used 309L stainless rod and tigged it with about 300 to 350 deg preheat and a nice slow cool down which I know you did.  I would of let it cool quicker then you did, but slower shouldn't of hurt anything.
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 04-17-2008 14:58
I did think about tig n it, but I thought it might pick up too much iron oxide from the backside of the part.  Since it's a waterjacketed marine, the backside is not accessable to clean.  I have not used 309L in the past since I always thought the Cr would form too many carbides and become more brittle.  Maybe it's a better way to look at things in the future.  Thanks Ray, I'll try that on something else.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 04-17-2008 15:39 Edited 04-17-2008 15:43
I weld cast Iron exhaust mani's a lot adding stainless and carbon flanges and stainless wastegate tubes made from 304L.  I use 309L and certanium 888 to weld anything cast Iron, but mostly 309L because it's more readily available and I can tig it and make it look good.  I repair cracks on mani's with PJP groove welds because I can't get to the inside and nothing has ever cracked again.
A pic of 304L stainless welded to a cast iron turbo housing to seal internal wastegate port using ER309L
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/vdubin474/100_0699.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/vdubin474/100_0687.jpg

A carbon steel finger welded to a cast iron turbo exhaust housing with ER309L
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/vdubin474/100_0692.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/vdubin474/100_0642.jpg

In this picture you can see the carbon steel wastegate flange welded to 304L tubing welded to the cast iron mani, all welded with ER309L tig welded.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/vdubin474/100_0704.jpg

By the way that's my 330whp 1994 Volkswagen Golf.;-)
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 04-17-2008 16:12
Well, I can't say anything bad about that!!

Nice turbo system!

I'll have to try 309L as an option.  I've always stuck to SMAW with Ni based rod and not really tried other methods cuz it always worked.  It's the old "if your method aint broke, don't fix it"...I surly found a flaw in my method however!
Parent - By darren (***) Date 04-23-2008 19:14
nice work kix
Parent - - By dschlotz (***) Date 04-18-2008 11:40
Mark,
I have welded a lot of cast iron over the years and have had success without preheat.  Ni has always worked. Short narrow passes with peening as soon as the red to orange color leaves. I drill holes at the ends of cracks and die grind a groove 75 % of thickness on those projects that have only one side accessible. I keep my pass width 1 1/2 times the rod dia. I never weld over 2" without stopping to peen the weld.

I think that the 309L is an interesting way to go. I'm going to try it.

Different strokes for different folks.

Dennis
Parent - - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 04-18-2008 12:09
Thanks Dennis.  It's interesting that you have done this type of repair without preheat.  I always thought that was the most important part of cast work to control expansion/ contraction.  On this particular part I was welding 3-4" passes, only penning every 2 passes.  I did not drill, but did grind out past the cracked sections.  None of the post weld cracking followed previous crack lines, it always seemed to form new cracks in different areas.  It just stinks that it seemed to weld so good but the end result was complete failure.  I really think that the mild steel that was mixed in might have caused the problems but I thought that I had is all ground out before I started welding.  I'm grasping as straws here, but I need to blame it on something other than me... :)
Parent - - By Ringo (***) Date 04-18-2008 17:30
I've always had the best success with NI55,both SMAW and GTAW.Sometimes I would have to grind the first couple of passes if I got some porosity,and then wrapping the part in heat blanket and stepping down the cooling.It seems as if you are pretty experienced yourself.I have never used E390L as some of the other guys suggested,but I will definatly try it in the future.It sucks you couldn't get it squared away.
Parent - By arrowside (**) Date 04-18-2008 22:22
Esab 4-60T. Don't leave home without it. When it comes to cast iron, this stuff has never let me down.
Parent - By Catmechanic Date 04-20-2008 13:12
Mark,

I tried fixing a pair of boat manifolds once with the same problem (notice I said TRIED).  I took them to a friend who magnafluxed them, hairline cracks everywhere, looked like a spiderweb.  The ice pretty much shattered the cast.  The owner and I cut one open, there were also cracks from the water jacket into the exhaust ports where we wouldn't have been able to access anyway.  He's very careful about draining everything now when the weather starts turning cold!

Jim S
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 04-21-2008 17:42 Edited 04-21-2008 18:03
ive done a bunch of cast repairs,
preheat is to at least 800 and around 1100 is better. to effectuate the repair i used  oxy fuel with a neutral flame and cast iron rods with ton and tons of solar flux.
the action is kinda a stirring motion with the flame and the rod. lotsa flux.
have a large amount of floor dry available and when the part is done being welded then place in the floor dry. if its real critical preheat the floor dry in a container. keep stirring to make sure it gets heated all the way through. then put the item in the floor dry and cover it with as much floor dry as you have. let it cool until it is ambient, may take a few days for that to happen.
takes alot of fuel and at least two guys. using a regular old kitchen oven to get the part up to 500 is the easiest way if it will fit into one.
i learned this from a great guy and good educator bob adams.
i did this on a 53 corvette exhaust manifold, worth more than my truck at the time, also a 150 year old heat exchanger for a water/wood fired heating system, both had huge amounts of contaminants and had undergone significant thermal cycles and both were repaired successfully. these are just some of the cast ive done and very rarely do i have any cracks to rework. that heat exchanger i had to do three times but in the end it was a success.
my biggest advice is to do it on a cost plus basis and tell them up front its gonna be expensive plus.
dont know if you want to go this route but i thought id put in my 2 bits.

also brazed a bunch but thats for non thermal application

welded with nickel over and over grinding out the last weld until the cast is stable works sometimes as well.

predrilling the crack up ahead and behind the crack is a good idea as well.

with exhaust manifolds or anything exposed to contaminants it doesnt hurt to take the whole thing up to dull cherry to clean out the metal.

on the other side of things i brazed up a proprietary flange bearing mount for an antique tractor and it fell into the water under the cutting table just as i picked it up to put it in the floor dry and by the time i got it out it had stopped bubbling, and to our amazement it held and went into service and has never been back
good luck
darren

http://www.castironrepair.com/    if these guys dont know then no one does

http://www.afrox.co.za/products_services/subsubsubcategory.cfm?CategoryID=668

http://www.twi.co.uk/j32k/protected/band_3/jk25.html

http://www.aluminumrepair.com/hts528.asp  this last one i cant speak to it just came up when i did the search.
Parent - - By Kix (****) Date 04-21-2008 18:12
Hey Darren, do you have a tig welder or stick welder?  You could probably make more cash if you used one of those and charged the same as you are now.  I know old habbits die hard, but your making it sound like you have an expensive operation going on over there.;-)
Parent - - By darren (***) Date 04-21-2008 22:14
i only do it as a last resort, i try stick first and then move up the difficulty scale and yes i/we have wire stick tig oxy fuel and whatever we need.
the old way i described here is for the has to be done type of project. 53 corvette manifold was irreplaceable and the heat exchanger was on a heritage museum building and the alternative was to have a new piece cast and machined and that was in the few thousand dollar plus range.
when it comes to these type of projects they are always cost plus or in some cases free for a friend.
i definitely enjoy the challenge though.
darren
Parent - By MDG Custom Weld (***) Date 04-23-2008 12:25
Thanks for the info and links Darren, good stuff.
And your last comment hit the nail on the head...it was a pro-bono friend job, or should I say it was a pro-bone since I burned up the high dollar rod.  I have done a lot of work on cast, but it seems I have been sticking to the process that has worked.  With some of the feedback from you and Kix, I'm going to try other methods that are not at the top of my wheelhouse.  That's what's great about this forum, you can never have all the info yourself!
Thanks for the help guys.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Cast Iron Trouble

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