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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / surface porosity and surface slag inclusion
- - By Richman (**) Date 04-14-2008 12:29
On B31.3 table 341.3.2 the above subject on note 5 allowed to evaluate for thickness of less than or equal to 5mm (3/16 in.)W.T., since it is not specifically states on the acceptance criteria of 5mm above W.T. of pipe, can we apply or not the internal porosity chart stated in ASME section VIII for visual inspections of welds?
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-14-2008 12:49
I'd probably look carefully at the Criterion Evaluation notes (numeric notes) following the table.
Parent - By Richman (**) Date 04-14-2008 13:23
Actually it has been proposed to us by our sub contractor to use the ASME section VIII appendix IV (surface porosity /exposed slag inclusion) in visual examinations, I try to look all the notes I have but I cannot find any proof in ASME to support their proposals. Is there a possibility that we accept or use these proposals?
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 04-14-2008 21:36
The owner engineer can accept whatever they wish. As for finding proof, B31.3 has it's own acceptance criteria. Trying to apply a different segment of ASME code is asking for trouble. Put another way, internal and external flaws are not one and the same in regards to how critical they are. Surface connecting or surface flaws will usually be held to a tighter standard than internal ones. I'll look up some specific reference later this evening and get back to you, but just off the top of my head I'd be leary of applying internal criteria to an external/surface breaking indication any day of the week.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By RANDER (***) Date 04-15-2008 02:19
I agree with Gerald.

If I understand correctly you have some piping with a wall thickness under 3/16" (.187) that contains surface porosity.  The note you quote from B31.3 doesn't require evaluation for welds under this thickness.  Give it to the engineer or for god sake grind it out and make a good weld.  Happens all the time
Parent - - By jmdugan10 (*) Date 04-17-2008 14:44 Edited 04-17-2008 14:54
Can't disagree there.  My thought is, B31.3 is process piping, Sec VIII is pressure vessels.  You've got apples and oranges here.  You can't compare the two.

On top of that appedendix 4 is a radiographic acceptance criteria.

I would saythe two are NOT interchangable.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-18-2008 08:12
Hello guys,
Am I missing something here. Note 5 is quoted but I cannot find any mention of Note 5 other than in the notes on page 79. I can find mention of notes 1,2,3,4,6,7,8 & 9 but no note 5.
Regardless, Surface porosity or exposed slag inclusion for all classes of piping is an A ( which is zero imperfection) so they can use whatever code/s they like but if they have exposed porosity or slag inclusion then it does not comply with B31.3. End of story.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-18-2008 11:24 Edited 04-18-2008 11:40
Table 341.3.2 Acceptance Criteria for Welds and Examination Methods for Evaluating Weld Imperfections (Cont'd)

NOTES:

(1) Criteria given are for required examination. More stringent criteria may be specified in the engineering design. See also paras. 341.5 and 341.5.3.

(2) Longitudinal groove weld includes straight and spiral seam. Criteria are not intended to apply to welds made in
accordance with a standard listed in Table A-1 or Table 326.1. Alternative Leak Test requires examination of these welds; see para. 345.9.

(3) Fillet weld includes socket and seal welds, and attachment welds for slip-on flanges, branch reinforcement, and
supports.

(4) Branch connection weld includes pressure containing welds in branches and fabricated laps.

(5) These imperfections are evaluated only for welds less than, or equal to; 5 mm (3/16 in.) in nominal thickness.

(6) Where two limiting values are separated by "and," the lesser of the values determines acceptance. Where two sets of values are separated by "or," the larger value is acceptable. Tw is the nominal wall thickness of the thinner of two components joined by a butt weld.

(7) Tightly butted unfused root faces are unacceptable.

(8) For groove welds, height is the lesser of the measurements made from the surfaces of the adjacent components; both reinforcement and internal protrusion are permitted in a weld. For fillet welds, height is measured from the theoretical throat, Fig. 328.5.2A; internal protrusion does not apply.

(9) For welds in aluminum alloy only, internal protrusion shall not exceed the following values:
(a) for thickness less than, or equal to; 2 mm (5/64 in.): 1.5 mm (1/16 in.);
(b) for thickness > 2 mm and less than, or equal to; 6 mm (1/4 in.): 2.5 mm (3/32 in.).
For external reinforcement and for greater thicknesses, see the tabulation for Symbol L.

I'll happily explain, but this runs along the same lines as trying to apply visual acceptance criteria to internal weld surfaces when using a borescope or similar... the Code is being wrongly applied in these cases.  There ya go, black and white! 

My EDIT was to correct the symbols as best I could.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-18-2008 13:04
Hi Jon,
I only have the 2002 edition of B31.3 but I cannot see what Note 5 is applicable to. Each note is applicable to a specific section in the acceptance criteria.
It states "These imperfections......" but I cannot find Note 5 anywhere, whereas Notes 1 through 9 are all noted in various areas on pages 77 or 78.
Am I going blind ????
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-19-2008 00:47 Edited 04-19-2008 00:54
I dont have access to 2002 Edition Shane, could only speculate perhaps a typo?  I'm pretty sure that note has been there before 2002?  Note 5 is placed on that acceptance table, adjacent to the slag / porosity mentioned in the post.
Parent - - By john baxter (*) Date 04-19-2008 01:51
Shane 2002 edition had a mistake referencing note 6 in the table. This has been corrected in the 2006 edition which now references note 5.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-19-2008 03:19
As suspected!  Thanks John!
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-19-2008 05:41
What am I doing with out of date codes.?
Will have to have a chat with my Welding Engineer boss !!!
Hope everyone has a great weekend.
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 04-19-2008 08:19
Shane you can find note 5 in column for welding imperfections  in Table 341.3.2 in Chapter VI for Inspection, examination and testing of B31.3 -2002 0r in 2004 edition.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 04-19-2008 10:02
Hi Richman,
That is where I got in trouble, Note 5 is not in the 2002 edition. As John Baxter has kindly informed me it was a typo and it is Note 6 in the 2002 edition and Note 5 in the 2006 edition.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - By Richman (**) Date 04-19-2008 13:25
yes shane your right it's note 6 in 2002 edition probably it's typo error, sorry to say I overlook that but in my 2004 and 2006  edition it's note 5.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / surface porosity and surface slag inclusion

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