wannaweld,
Schooling is good, but imo, only to a point. You need to learn the processes and the basic concept. Once you have the feel of welding in a set up environment, then it is time to move to the real world. The time frame for this will obviously vary from one person to the next. Now as far as "patience" never relax! beat the streets, work the internet, call call call. Make them make a decision. Don't be scared of being turned down, it will happen. Just don't get discouraged, it will come. Again, schooling is good, but it will not get you the job, that is all you.
jrw
Hello Robert, and others. Individual situations will always dictate which route of training will work best for an individual who has aspirations to make it in any trade. The union apprenticeship route: a great way to learn a craft AND get paid for this learning while you are earning. Would be great if this were available to everyone, unfortunately, as most folks know, it isn't. As I said though, if you are fortunate to have made the right connection or been in the right area at a time when applications were being accepted into an apprenticeship program it can definitely be a terrific way to go. I have many students who have completed various levels of training in our program and then have received advanced placement with apprenticeships AND they do have a definite leg up over those who simply apply off of the street. Here again, the individual will many times have more to do with their success than anything else.
Schooling will NEVER take the place of applying skills on a job. It may, however, provide a better understanding of what is taking place on those jobs and provide the individual with the abilities to advance more quickly as a result of those understandings. Definitely, the school that has provided the instruction can have as much to do with perception of schooling as the result of schooling itself. By that I am referring to the quality of the instruction and the level of interaction and understanding by the student with regard to their training on both a skills and academic level.
I said that an individuals situation will many times be the determining factor for approaching a start in a trade. If the unions aren't accepting apprentices, the companies aren't willing to hire and train a helper who can then advance, a person doesn't have the luxury of putting their life on hold to approach an education full-time or have the funding to do so, then sometimes one has to look to part-time education and also continually and relentlessly approach all of these areas until something breaks and starts the process rolling.
I have worked with plenty of individuals who have learned on the job and never set foot in a school or training facility. I have also seen plenty of these folks remain in a somewhat stagnant situation because they were never given the proper advancements because ironically, they didn't have a realization that they could. There are many companies who love these types of individuals, they train them very well to do exactly the things that their companies require and then they capitalize on their skills and never properly reward them. I have worked with countless individuals who possess unbelievable welding and fabrications skills, some school graduates at a point in their lives, others completely having learned and picked it up along the way during their involvement in the trades. I have also seen many folks who go to work for companies and learn everything on the job except for how to keep themselves out of harm's way, these are the ones who die and are maimed for life because they didn't have a good understanding of the do's and don'ts of safety. Something they may have gotten in school, instead of being naturally expected to know.
Sorry for the rant folks, yes I am ONE of those educators, also a veteran of the welding trade for 30 years plus, and still an active welder, fabricator, and shade-tree engineer, and I am very aware of the many different avenues that an individual wanting to break into the welding trade may need to pursue to realize their dream. I will leave my final comment to sum it up this way: the individual and his/her situation will be a large part of the options that may need to be pursued to have a career in the many different areas of the welding trades. Paramount to my first statement, the level of energy and gusto that is used to follow and attain this will have a tremendous amount to do with the success that can be realized. So if you are an individual who has the desire to work in the welding trades you may have to explore any number of different avenues to make this happen. These may include schooling, apprenticeships, starting out on the bottom rung of the ladder as a helper/shop clean-up person, or any combination of other methods and tactics, but when it's all said and done, your personal zeal will likely have the most to do with your success. Best regards everyone, Allan
Allan,
You never cease to amaze me. Well said as always.
John
Thank you all for your responces. I think I will continue trying to contact people untill I get a chance to start as a helper. Thank you all for your time to respond.
-Robert Gray
Your situation sounds to Me like You really need an income, so that should be Your 1st. priority. If You can find a good welding course that You can attend in addition to a job it would probably be to Your benifit. Real world experience plus trade theory is what You need, while an apprenticeship incorporates both, You can end up with a similar end result by working and taking courses.
Robert,
I was just wondering if you have any welding equipment at your dispossal? for instance, a small stick welder or small portable MIG unit you can practice with?
I only ask because, I started FCAW-S,(only because it was cost prohibitive for me to purchase a shielding gas cylinder for my MIG unit), welding in my own garage before I decided to go to school for the wider range of welding processes. I bought some welding mauals, learned about the safety aspects and then got to welding...of course after visiting my local scrap yard and buying approx 1000 lb of srap to cut up and weld on. Also, what is your current level of experience in any process of welding? Have you had any exposure to actual welding?
Respectfully, jeffrey S. Grady
Oilfield work in Houston is booming.
I bet you could get a helper's job down there, today, and for good money.
My opinion is that it is better to get paid while you learn.
Keep in mind though that all work places are not equal.
Some places are real cess pools who don't care at all about helpers or their safety cause they consider them dime a dozen.
Do some research before taking the first job to come along.
Good Luck!
Tim
nice little write up Allan I deffinitly got some stuff outta that. Thanks and what you say
""There are many companies who love these types of individuals, they train them very well to do exactly the things that their companies require and then they capitalize on their skills and never properly reward them""
That is kinda how I feel at my job I have now they want to keep me Dumb so I will never leave I see that alot from some of the other guys there they like brain wash them LOL not me though I hope to be leaving soon I want more.
Very nice write up.
Thanks
Chris
Hello Chris, a whole bunch of years ago I was working in Portland, Ore. While I was there, work was slowing down and I was fearful that I might be laid off so I was trying to keep my eyes and ears open for other work opportunities in case mine dried up. I noticed an ad in the paper for Tig welders experienced with SS and some of the exotics, they also listed a certification that they would be requiring. I figured that I could likely pass their test and already had a bit of experience with some of the other things that they had listed in the ad so I called them up. After hearing the usual things that were said, I inquired about the wages, $8 to $12/hr depending on experience, I finished the call and didn't pursue any further action on it. Even at that time, in that geographical location, a certified Tig welder would have likely been commanding $18 to $22/hr without so much as a blink. I use this example because this company obviously had people that were coming to work for them even at this low wage. It also verified for me why they had the job listing as they likely had a high turnover rate. As well, there are companies everywhere who operate on a similar type of regimen. Due to circumstances that people are in they often times feel they have no choice but to take these jobs and be "satisfied". In many instances these opportunities resemble the company stores of ages that are hopefully gone by, folks have families, mortgages, and other commitments and get locked into a particular situation and feel they can't make a change. Personal choice is the biggest determining factor for almost anyone when you consider where they end up or where they go. Personal satisfaction is also key to the comfort that a career or job brings, many folks are perfectly content doing a particular job and so long as their bills get paid, their family has a roof over it's head, and full tummies, they are completely content. Others might go to the other extreme, they are never satisfied and continually strive to do better, make more, have more, and experience more from life. Personal choice, sums it up for me. If you strive to experience more and do more, go for it, generally there will be a pay-off and you will be a much happier individual when it's all said and done. Best regards, Allan
Thanks Allan yes I am ashamed to say where I work is like the company you are talking about. I was fresh outta school they wanted to pay me 11 an hour to start basically tig welding structural I ended up starting off at 12 and i said ok I realize I am outta school I have to start under the barrel so I did I've been there close to a year and now at 14.50 an hour only because someone put a heck of a good word in for me if not I'd be at 13 an hour. I realize I won't really go anywhere with this company I have learned a ton and am pipe welding stainless but I know I want to do better I want to become a great welder if there is a such thing. I know there will always be someone better then me but I want to still strive to become a great welder. I'm actually looking into a place down the road from me which I know pays more probally around 16-21 or so an hour so that is my next place I know. The place I'm at now seems to want to pay you less but make you work more hours which I have no problem working the hours it just sucks if you ask for a raise they rather not give it to ya but just make you work more. I could probally stay and learn a little more but it is deffinitly time to move on. The other place welds on copper nickel titanium and stainless which I feel I could really advance in a place like that. So who knows hopefully soon I'm about finished with this place.
Thanks alot Allan it's just really funny everything you described I feel like is about me haha
Thanks
Chris
Never be afraid to leave a job for a better opportunity!
Never!
You have developed the skill set and you get paid what you are worth. IF the company is paying you 14.5 and there is someone wiling to pay you 18-20 for the same skill set and the benefits are the same or better, GO. I would not drag for 1-2 per but a 4 dollar raise is 9K more a year. The days of being loyal to a company and them being loyal back to you are over. If a company will train you for a better position but then not give you the opportunity for it, or not compensate you for the knowledge, then bid them good by. If they wont train you, save up and get it yourself and them tell them good by.
But when you walk, dont look back.
BABRT's
AMEN BROTHER!!! And I will say it again AMEN.
John
Hello again Chris, if this is your first job you really haven't done bad for yourself at all. The first job for anyone is always the hardest, many times it also has some of the best possibilities for learning potential. I say it that way because since you didn't have any "experience" you were less likely to be expected not to make mistakes, you may also have been given learning opportunities and help from others in the shop because they knew you are starting out and didn't feel you should already have known a number of things.
Another thing about progressing from a starting position in any shop(non-union) is the fact that no matter how great your improvement or contribution to their bottom line they will not reward you as you possibly feel you deserve. Two basic things typically have a lot to do with this: the first, most any employer will try to keep you working for the least amount of money they can, within certain bounds. Second, if the employer actually does bump you to a wage that you feel is correct for your skills and contributions this can possibly start a wage war within the company as others will always figure out your wage. Most employers aren't willing to risk this or be willing to cough up wage increases for the others that would feel as if they had been passed-over. Hence, you will always make your best wage increases when you change from one company to another, or possibly return to a company after a period of time from your first employment with them. I included the last bit based upon a realization of some companies of what they let go the first time by not stepping up to the wage bar. The second time around some are more willing to make it worth your wile.
Currently you may feel cheated, or possibly believe that you have wasted a lot of time, don't feel that way completely. I believe you already said that you have learned a lot, likely more than you even realize. So when you decide the time is right and the opportunity comes around get to it and pursue it. You will have way more confidence than you did on your first job and you will also be able to bargain on your work experience as a result. Best of luck to you and regards, Allan
Thanks Allan and thanks BABRT's I don't feel that my time is wasted no and well I do feel like I am worth a little more. I want to leave not just because of the money but to learn more and later that will help more with more money. I know this company probally will offer me more money when I put my 2 weeks in I don't know how much more if it is a dollar or what but I will most likely still leave because I want something different. I'm working on a resume today just gotta fine tune it some and hopefully can go drop it off Thursday.
Thanks guys for answering all my questions and giving me a little support.
Thanks
Chris
Ask for a raise to what you think your skills are worth. If they tell you not now then look at leaving. If they offer you money to stay after you give notice, then they KNOW what you are worth, they are just to cheap to pay it. And at that point I would look at burning a bridge just to let them know you know what cheap bastages they are. Some companies can only pay what they can pay and your skills may be worth too much to them. These companies usually bid you good luck and you keep a good reference. The cheap companies, dont count on them giving any more than , "yes he worked for us", "yes he gave notice" and "no, we would not hire him back".That is all they leagaly have to tell.
BABRT's
I'm beyond asking for a raise I'm just ready to leave it's my time I know of others who ask for a raise and that got like 50 cents. I was told before I started there from a friend that you only want to stay a year or so and then leave and he was absolutly right. There's a place down the road I think that tops out at around 20 or so so I'm shooting for them. I've heard good and bad things about the place but I want to give it a try who knows it maybe the place for me.
Chris
In my region of the country... Union Apprenticeships are plentiful, but they are also competitive... Candidates with a certification or a tech shool diploma move ahead on the list past those without... So even in the "earn while you learn" model an education puts you ahead.
Furthermore:
1..The National Association of Manufacturers says that 60% of manufacturers reject half of all applicants as unqualified because of the lack of basic skills. Experienced baby boomers are retiring by the boatload... Employers want people who have a depth of understanding to replace them.. Most are not looking for "trigger men" with only the ability to make a weld.
2. According to the National Tooling and Machining Association, 40% of member companies are turning away business due to lack of skilled welders. Skilled being the key again... The work is there... The pay is there. Getting the best slice of the pie is going to be driven by how you advance... and if you have no understanding of process control, materials behavior, multiple processes and alloys... communication and welding procedures in a code environment you are not likely to advance.
3. According to the Hobart institute of Technology "25,000 students will begin their welding careers in 2006 while 50,000 experienced welders are expected to retire. This disparity is going to leave many job openings... Some of those 25,000 jobs left unaccounted for will be filled by folks with no experience or technical training, they will likely be taught one thing and one thing only. If that job dries up they may be very hard pressed to find employment because they only know one thing.
4. My own opinion as an educator is driven by my advisory committee and local employers... These local players demand that graduates or any entry level welder have the following, in order of importence.
a. Communication skills... (be able to listen and follow verbal and written instructions)
b. A proven track record of accountability.. (my students punch a clock) and finishing a college program demonstrates a little something too.
c. Drug Free....
d. Multi-Process training that includes the ability to set up and control each process from a power supply torn down to parade rest
e. The ability to pass a written exam on theory
f. The ability to pass a practical welding test. (yep this is last on the list)
Employers requiring 2-5 years experience will often allow a tech school graduate to test for a position even if they lack the requisite experience.
My advisors and the players in our region want an employee they can get a maximum harvest for their later training investments... They understand we can't teach them everything in a one year program, so they insist we teach them process and technique.. With this foundation they can grow these entry level welders into fabricators, lead men and superviosrs who are quickly able after being hired to make decisions when necessary.
So skills are important no denying that... and plenty of motivated folks can learn theory, process and all the rest without going to school. Lot's of the welders I know who are way better than I am have never been formally trained.. But it is much less likely and much more difficult to get to the top that way. I see it as the harder road, where more folks are more likely to become disillusioned and ultimately fail both themselves and their employers.
Hello Lawrence, as usual you have included and expanded on many important points raised by this thread. I was wondering if you were lurking, glad to see you chime in with other issues and those ever-so-important statistics that I typically lack.
I am glad to hear that the unions are hungry in your area, information such as that just reinforces the need for tradespeople and likely increases the bottom line of wages. I can't quite say the same for my area, we have seen opportunities open up with the unions, but not to the degree that I would expect. Thanks and best regards, Allan
Well now I don't know what I should do. Some have said that I need the income, well yes I do. I just don't know what to do about the wages around here for apprentices. They start out at 12.28 for the pipefitters union and like 17.5 for the boilermakers union 400 miles away. We would be willing to move to make things happen just don't know how fast we could sell our house. Or where would be the best place to go(schools for the kids, available work, cost of living, etc.). If any of you have any ideas let me know. I feel kinda bad cause I told my wife that joining the union as a welder/helper would be a very good thing for us, now she is like you said they have work why don't they ever call you back. Any way anyone know of a good apprenticship program accepting application let me know. Thank you all for your responces and time.
-Robert Gray
rgafi@msn.com
I know in the paper for New Orleans Louisiana there is a Local 60 union that had a ad in the paper needing people to join for welders and pipefitters I think the journeyman pay is like 24.27 and hour and the aprenticeship is way lower not sure what it is but trust me I don't know if you want to move to Louisiana the pay seems to s*ck here and the school system really S*CKS unless you lived north of lake ponchatrain and lived in Mandeville the school system is supposely great houseing would be expensive you may find something cheap. The local 60 has a website I think it is local60.com or local60union.com you should be able to find it in Google if you were interested in it.
Chris
Hello Robert, I have a slightly different tact for you to consider at this point. If you have a trade/technical school(s) in your fairly close proximity you may want to go and speak with their personnel about not only their programs but more specifically about the companies that they supply welders to. Try to use this method to get an idea of wages at specific employers, types of work, union and non-union shops, in general, a picture of what's available locally and possibly some projections for future work. This may help you to determine if you should consider traveling or relocating. If you come to the conclusion that you may need to relocate, I don't believe I would uproot the family until you had gotten yourself on some firm footing regarding a job and work. As much as it can be hard on families to be separated, it may be smarter to do your long-distance job hunting without immediately moving the family. Give this train of thought a bit of consideration and check with these sources for job leads. Best regards, Allan
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