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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Welding Distortions
- - By Richman (**) Date 04-21-2008 06:52
During visual inspections we find frequent circumferential weld distortion of >3mm for fabricated stainless steel piping's for thickness up to 12.7mm and below on welded areas of branch outlet fittings connections. Probable cause is wrong sequence of welding and welded with greater heat input applied during welding by SMAW process. Project specifications didn't mention any acceptance criteria for this subject. Are there any specific maximum requirements on any Codes with regards to this subject? How can we convince our contractor that this kind of defect of more than 3mm is not acceptable?
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-21-2008 14:45
First of all its not a defect. Its an inherent phenomena when welding stainless steel. You can't stop it no matter what you do with sequence and heat control. You can minimize it to a certain extent, but 3mm seems like not even worth worrying about if you ask me, unless it is causing some specific problem for service.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-21-2008 14:48
One other thing, if its you're contractor you don't convince them of anything. You give them a specification if you dont like something. Spec it with a restriction. But don't be surprised if the price goes up.
Its not fair to have not done your own due diligence before hand, failed to have written a proper spec, and then come back on your contractor with more restrictive criteria.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 01:02
I agree with js55.  3mm is not even worth thinking about (at least in my opinion) and should have no affect on process.  Hoop shrinkage as we sometimes refer to it is inevitable and as js55 explains, it can be minimized but usually not prevented.
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 04-22-2008 04:22
Also to be considered is the possibility of cracks if you over-restrain the weld. Stainless molecules shrink when cooling and there's not a force on earth that can stop it, although if you're thick enough that vibration technology has some promise. Thin gauges are unaffected, however.
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 04-22-2008 04:44
During inspections on average we find weld distortion of more than ±5mm, I just say on my first post more than (>) 3mm. In case it's more than 3mm or 5mm or more  does it cause effect on the header pipe (core pipe) or in the base metal it self or not? For my understanding on this issue why this happens is the welders didn't follow the requirements of WPS for heat input. In that case if the heat input exceed too much during welding it will change the intergranular structure of the metal and it may cause effect on the hardness and it may cause cracking on the weld toe area or in the area where distortion occurs in the future if not after welding. Kindly correct me if I'm wrong with this statement. Thanks
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 08:00
Richman, stainless is going to move, and move a lot when compared with other steel alloys.  In some cases, there may be methods to reduce movement.  From my own experience, what you see on the external surfaces usually has no "direct," i.e., 1:1 correlation to the internal surfaces, which is what you REALLY care about. 

Please don't take the following statement derogatorily, as it may seem I'm "talking down to you" I am not, there are many people in the Forum who have very little experience with these issues so I'm trying to respond in lay terms.

In the simplest of terms, fill an ice tray full of water, take a measurement from the top of the tray.  After the water has completely frozen, take another measurement... you will find that the volume has seemingly reduced, or at least thats what your measurements will tell you.  Is there less water than before?  Perhaps, but it wouldn't be a measurable difference.  It's simply a matter of the water molecules shrinking as they freeze... heat expands, cold reduces... similarly, when weld metal and the interfacing base metal solidifies it has no choice but to shrink... this is what you are seeing. 

You can try sequencing operations to reduce the visible effects but this is entirely up to you and your organization.  Without knowing all of the parameters, I wouldn't attempt to guess whether heat inputs are excessive but can assure you that some shrinkage will occur no matter what you do.  Has any of the inspectors within your organization monitored the welding to verify whether or not they're in compliance with WPS?  That would be the simplest, easiest answer to verify whether or not there are welding concerns.

I apologize again if I seem to talk downward to you, it is surely not intentional but feel like you might be reading things into a situation that are not real.
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 04-22-2008 10:19
I understand what you say, no worry. I just want to know some things not clear to me with respect to EXCESSIVE Weld Distortion or detrimental stresses AFTER welding on piping.  In addition if the piping materials have excessive distortion on it and is subject to creep under thermal conditions what effects on it may cause in the base metal since it cannot be avoided at site and are there specific requirements for this on the Codes or nothing? 
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 10:41
As I'm sure you're aware, there are residual stresses in ALL welds after welding (yes, even the so called stress relieved ones).  In order to determine the level of stresses that are allowable, or permitted for your project, you would have to speak with a design engineer as there are literally hundreds of factors to consider.  As you mention creep, I am just going to "assume" you may be involved in nuclear work?  I guess the safest thing to say is you really should be asking someone within your organization to evaluate these conditions for you.  I spent 20+ years working in nuclear construction and fabrication and while I'll certainly admit creep is a definate factor in the nuclear world, I don't believe it can be adequately addressed in this Forum.  I guess my observations may be what one considers excessive, as I'm sure if you asked 20 people you'd get 20 variations of similar answers.  Sorry, I'm unable to really help in this matter.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 13:43
Richman,
If your welders violated the WPS you have a ligitimate beef. But IMO not in the manner you seem to be assuming. I have never experienced a situation where excessive heat input, given a viable weldment, in SS has resulted in delayed cracking, which is most often associated with either hydrogen, of which SS is not near as susceptible as ferritcs, or low alloys, or fatigue, which would result in my opinion more from notches, re-entry angle issues, exteme thickness transitions etc.
Also, you mentioned SS but I don't reecall which alloy. Those SS's that solidify ferritically are actually quite resistant to hot cracking, while those that solidify austenitically are more sensitive. But it is hot cracking nonetheless and will take place immediately.
The biggest problem with high heat input is hot cracking, and segregation. Segregation has more effect in corrosion issues than mechanical, and is more problematic with Mo (316) than with Cr/Ni.
Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 04-23-2008 02:47 Edited 04-23-2008 02:53
There seem to be some common mis-conceptions in some of your reasoning.  I'll try to explain and hope I don't get everything confused:

1. I don't see that you mention what grade of stainless steel (or diameter) that you are welding, so for the moment I am assuming that you are welding ordinary austenitic stainless steel (not of the low carbon variety since you mention creep), so if it is something else, all of what is said below may need to go out the window.

2. If the welders don't follow the heat input requirements of the WPS, this is a voilation that needs corrected, and possible remedial action taken in the form of possible testing if there are CVN requirements and heat input is limited.

3. That being said, high heat input (within reason- and unless you have wide weave passes with SMAW, it is probably within reason) on normal non-L grade austenitic stainless steel does not necessarily cause problems in itself unless you are worried about corrosion resistance (and you may be) since slow cooling rates can cause sensetization of the HAZ.  However, even that depends on factors such as the thickness, interpass temperature, and stainless steel composition (such as whether the sst has Ti or Nb).  I don't want to sound like I am supporting the practice of welding with high heat input on stainless steels, but just want to caution the use of the idea that it automatically causes problems.

4. High heat input does not result in more distortion than low heat input.  Actually it is the other way around.  The mis-conception is based on the fact that high heat input commonly results in over-welding, which does increase distortion.  If you have the exact same sized weld, the one with more passes (lower heat input) will result in more distortion.

5. The result of excessive heat input on austenitic stainless does not generally change the hardness since austenitic stainless is not hardenable.  So as mentioned hydrogen cracking from high hardness values are not a concern (there are other cracking concerns with some stainless steels, but not enough information is available to address them for your situtation)

5. All of the above must be tempered with the realization that each situation (and resultant service environment) can be different, and have different needs, so general ideas such as those above have to be evaluated in light of the specific use and expected performance of the stainless steel.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 13:29
jon,
You back in Kazahk?
Is it warming up there yet?
Parent - By Richman (**) Date 04-22-2008 13:48
Thanks for that John. I remember on AWS-WHB chapter-7 regarding "Residual stresses and Distortion" but I didn't completely read the content of that chapter, is there somebody from this forum read that? Does this chapter states any criteria of acceptance for the above subject or not?

Thanks.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 16:03
js55, I am back in Kazakhstan and it's beginning to be very nice, even nicer than at home, in Michigan!  I've not yet spent a Summer here (yet) but the temperatures reach 45C on a routine basis although a dry heat.  I roll out on leave again on May 7th.  We'll be going to 28 days on, 28 days off within the next few months... that will be nice!

I agree completely with your far better explanation than mine... in my opinion, in order for there to be any "real" metallurgical damage, the heat input would have to be so excessive that it might likely even leave visible indications on the parent metal.  Generally speaking, most of us try to keep our interpass down to 350F or lower (for the austenitics) but from my experience, the damage doesnt really get started until one has somewhere around 800F and even at that, for relatively lengthy periods of time.

Richman, for what it's worth, js55 is, in my personal opinion, one of the foremost experts in metallurgy... the original draft of the now published AWS D10.18 "Guide to Welding of Ferritic / Austenitic Duplex Stainless Steel Piping and Tubing" was written almost entirely by js55.

In irony, my contractors frentically called me to the stainless fab shop this afternoon where they are fabbing some 30," Sch. 10 pipe (Type 316L).  They had somewhere around 3/16" hoop shrinkage and the Inspector wanted to run another bead all the way around to lessen the "visible effect" and, as he said, try to offset the density differences when doing RT.  I got a fairly good laugh from it but in the end told them to leave as is, everything would be okay!  By the way, that 3/16" external hoop shrinkage was nearly un-noticable on the ID.
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 16:08
P/S:  Richman, you're doing the right thing asking questions, but I seem to think you might be barking at shadows, maybe you could post some photo's?
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 16:56
jon,
I appreciate your words jon. A lot of work by a lot of very good people. I also see your name on the committee.

LMAO!!!  Well, if the one pass didn't do it they could always run another.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 21:27
Yeah, that's exactly what I explained to the Inspector, they could be chasing that Mule for days!!  I was fortunate enough to become part of that Committee at the end stages js55, so I take no credit for all the hard work done by yourself and the others!
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-23-2008 15:09
Richman,
Greg said it about as good as it gets.
I would agree with high heat input not necessarily causing problems.
And, I would agree that this is not an advocacy of welding SS with high heat input and not worrying. Fact is, I've been involved in tons and tons of SS welding without heat input controls and neary a problem. But you have to be aware of the intended service and engineer it.
Parent - - By Richman (**) Date 04-24-2008 09:52
In that case for example the core pipe materials is SS 304 sch 20 and the service class is Cryogenic process, with a distortion of about ±5mm we don't have any worry or problem with that, right? Thanks for the advice.
Parent - By GRoberts (***) Date 04-24-2008 13:45
Cryogenic service seems to be at odds with your earlier concern about creep.  If you have low temperature CVN testing, then heat input is an essentail variable, and if the welders are violating it, that is a cause for concern.  However, the distortion you are experiencing is not an indication that heat input was excessive.  Only measurements of volts/amps/travel speed, or bead size can determine heat input (or heat input relavive to bead size qualified).  Did you mention the pipe size?  If you are talking about 1" pipe, it would be a lot different than if you are talking about 120" pipe.  I would assume though, that your pipe size is not very small.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-24-2008 13:46
Richman,
The distortion I do not see as causing any problems in Cryo. As for the heat input that generated it, it depends. Cryo relies on impact toughness which is reduced when grains are enlarged, and grains are enlarged through high heat input welding regimes.
On the other hand, you are talking about schedule 20 thickness material. Well within what is called the plane stress region. Meaning that the material is thin enough that any stresses will tend to be biaxial as opposed to triaxial which are indicative of the plane strain region in thicker materials. The plane stress region demonstrates more ductile type fractures, not to mention the fact that SS does not demonstrate a precipitous ductile to brittle transition. This plane stress/plane strain biaxial/triaxial phenomena is the basis of the thickness limits in ASME Section IX, and the thickness related CVN testing regimes of the tables in ASME Section VIII, and B31.3.
There's no escaping the engineering. To be safe, run a coupon with your estimated heat input and do CVN's at your service temp. Make sure the temp is cryo though or you may not even get a fracture. SS is tough stuff. This way you will have proven it to yourself and will have supporting data as well.
When heat inputs get high I have more concerns about corrosion with SS than I do mechanicals.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-24-2008 15:37
Really, really hate saying this, but this seems more and more like a fishing trip with each post.  Some great advice and some great engineering analysis here.  Consultants are available, but this seems like really easy stuff to sort out in the shop?  Take a test piece, have the contractor run it with someone from your organization verifying the same parameters normally used and disect it.  This is what all of us do when we run into unknowns.
Parent - By Richman (**) Date 04-25-2008 04:15
Guys,
Certainly I'll carry out all you're advice and the information you share to me on this forum where ever I go in our future projects. Thanks.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Welding Distortions

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