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Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / 6013 Reverse Polarity ???
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- - By jimmyjeep Date 03-01-2008 03:55
I saw a post somewhere here on the board where a tip was given to run an uphill verticle 6013 pass. It was said that switching the polarity on that rod would allow a better bead. Just crank up the amps because you lose heat switching polarity. I took the tip to school and put a smile on the instructors face. Now he'd like to see the post if I can find it. Can any pro welder verify this or know where this post exists? Thanks gang.
Parent - By texasrigwelder (**) Date 03-02-2008 20:21
u always run reverse polarity , wat u saw was some won saying run straiat polarity
Parent - By welderdude (**) Date 03-02-2008 22:58
that might have been a post on running a 7018 root pass.  I think somebody mentioned something about 6013 there. 
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 03-03-2008 16:00
"A good test is worth a thousand opinions". Therefore, set the E6013 for electrode positive at a given heat input; ie... amperage, voltage and travel speed. Weld with that setting; then change just the polarity. Now cut and etch the two weld deposits. What are the results? Which is a "better bead"? Respectfully question your instructor's "why" and test it.
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 04-20-2008 14:34
im not sure if it was me who mentioned dc/en on 6013 but that is the way i tend to use them.i know from experience that e/p is a little harder to use. some rods do give a smother cap burned e/p vodex for example, but as i say it can be hard work. perhaps this is what puts most against using them.i know most of you boys arn,t allowed to use them anyhow, but in my world they are used for root filler and cap on a regular basis.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 04-21-2008 03:01
  According to some [older] literature I have, some 6013 rods are recomended to be run on either polarity, while other 6013 from the same manufacturer are recommended for DC-EN only.
Parent - By spgtti (**) Date 04-23-2008 17:05
  I have never seen 6013 used in piping fabrication but if that picture represents it, all I can say is WOW. Was this run in straight polarity? Who, what, when, and where was this fabbed for. That is a nice looking weld even with a roll-out.
Parent - - By cdd (**) Date 05-01-2008 14:11
Is that uphill or down?
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-01-2008 17:19
its uphill cdd, so is this
Parent - By cdd (**) Date 05-01-2008 18:08
Dont you love that site when you lift the hood!!!!!
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 04-21-2008 17:15
I've run that 6013 EN and EP.  Both ways will give a decent bead.  EN is better where thinner base metals are used, and for vertical down.  I don't think I'd run it EN for pressure work, though, not the root anyway.
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 04-21-2008 23:31
hi dave, boz, boz could you explain your comment, is it that en is weaker, or perhaps it dosn,t penetrate as well as e/p ? i wouldn,t be familiar with any of this. perhaps you meant that you wouldn,t use 6013 for root at all. anyhow i would like to know your views, im here to learn also. respectfully f/j
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 04-22-2008 13:45
Note my original post and cut and acid etch the weld deposit. Then measure the depth of penetration Electrode Negative versus Electrode Positive. If complete fusion (disregard depth of penetration) has occured Negative should be as strong as Positive. Again heat input would be the same; the variable change would be polarity of electrode.
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 04-22-2008 17:02
EN is less penetrating than EP.  If I had to run a root with 6013 I would likely run it EP, requirements of the WPS and the manufacturer's recommendation notwithstanding.  What 357 says is true: if you test it, you gain firsthand experience and that may help you decide what type of application the electrode is best suited to.  This is also why we have a WPS, to give us these variables in advance.  All WPS are not created equal: therefore, you might want to have a basic understanding of what all those little zoomies are doing inside that arc and how the electricity interacts with your base metal and filler metal to make the "perfect" weld.  This is also why current and polarity are listed as essential variables on a WPS.  Now, if you're just in your back yard fooling around, then you can pretty much do whatever you want.  However, as one starts adding stress to a welded joint, it becomes a little more important to ensure that the weld is sound.  Now I can grab a stinger and sling just about any stick you give me and make a "good" looking bead.  However, a good looking bead isn't enough.  You have to make sure that it actually joins the two parts of your weldment, that it will hold...this is now called a sound weld.  There are two elements to making a sound weld: a procedure and a technique.  The procedure is easy.  The technique can take years or tens of years to perfect.  The most important and most difficult variable in the welding process is the welder.

I'm glad you want to learn, dude.  What is that flange in the photo for?  It looks really thin on the pipe side.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-22-2008 17:51
Curt,
I'm not sure what this means.
"This is also why current and polarity are listed as essential variables on a WPS."
Parent - - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 04-23-2008 16:46
I'm locked into my little world, I apologize.  Most of what I work with is aluminum and GMAW.  Somehow I translated the requirement to SMAW.  I'm such a dummy lol.
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 04-23-2008 18:10
well as for e/p having more pen i didn,t know that, as i say i have never tried open root this polarity. its just become second nature for me now and i think changing approach would only offset any technique i have developed over the years. the pipe in question was a sch 40 reducer, these particular spools were not x/ray they were for an incinerator plant low pressure stuff, best to do them right though. thanks for your time lads. f/j
Parent - By flange jockey (*) Date 04-26-2008 23:00
jimmy this is again 6013 electrode neg, as i say its a personal thing but there is a marked difference in how they perform. f/j
Parent - - By texasrigwelder (**) Date 04-29-2008 00:27
best to do them right lol , u got an arc burn way out there man
Parent - - By lonestarwelder7 (**) Date 04-29-2008 03:57
[deleted]
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 04-29-2008 17:26 Edited 04-29-2008 17:29
meeow a warm welcome indeed f/j
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-01-2008 14:18
Whats under the saw blade?
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-01-2008 18:04
an 8inch tee, it really is a pleasure to see that the old values , manners ,tact etc are alive and well, at least in texas.i would like to dedicate this pic to my two new best pals, lonestar and tex respect dudes, and dont take it all too seriously and start feeling insecure.f/j
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-01-2008 18:44
F/J,
  LOL, I am just giving you a hard time, in a light hearted manner.

Let me be more specific with my question.

What is underneath the saw blade on the 8inch tee? :-)

From the looks of the previous pictures, one might think to move the blade while doing an inspection on that very nice looking (from the seat behind my desk) weld, to see if there might POSSIBLY be another arc strike.

But the others have ribbed you enough on that so I will leave it alone. :-)

Again, this is all in fun from where I sit right now, so do not take it personal.

John
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-01-2008 19:02
well now john,if i won an argument on the net it wouldn,t be one of my greater achievements. i have worked with welders all my days so i think you must appreciate i have a thick skin. john point taken, i don,t want to say too much just yet, but you have given me an excuse to post again . f/j
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-01-2008 19:03
Very cool my friend.

John
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-01-2008 21:16
we could do this all night lol
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-01-2008 21:17
Not me, I gotta get my beauty sleep. :-)
Parent - By Jeffrey Grady (***) Date 05-02-2008 05:28
Nice welds F/J! I have never welded pipe, But I sure love the heck out of 6013 rod. If I get the chance to weld pipe and I'm approved (per WPS) to run 6013, Man no doubt I'll Have plenty of fun with that!
Respectfully, Jeffrey Grady
Parent - - By lonestarwelder7 (**) Date 05-01-2008 22:54 Edited 05-01-2008 23:01
long ass arc strike..................................? under the blade? No Way.....and the bead looks good!!!!!!!!!!!And it's allways a good to have more friends in Texas, right f/j?
Parent - - By texasrigwelder (**) Date 05-02-2008 01:21 Edited 05-02-2008 01:29
man u aint gotta try to look cool downin me, caps look slick man but ur rollin em out right ive done a fare share of 36inch chromoly pipe uphill
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-02-2008 12:35
I HATE 6013 which I have nicknamed (junk rod) but nonwithstanding....you can weld either polarity (depends on manufacturer).

Dude hard as I could I could not beat those beads...you laid them all with 6013...that is some sweet (very sweet) welding.  be proud one helluva weave job!!!   Lets just call you snakebelly!!

Tommy
Parent - By bozaktwo1 (***) Date 05-02-2008 17:04
IMO 6013 is cake compared to 6011.  Barf.
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-02-2008 16:56 Edited 05-02-2008 17:09
heck tex im not here to down you, i didn,t know you till you replied to my post.i really have a lot of pics ,so ask yourself why did he post the one with an obvious flaw,think about it, take your time. its nice to be nice. when i read you were 21 i knew it was going to be easy. your pal f/j
Parent - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-03-2008 20:53
all these beads are 6013  dc/en, im sorry if i have come across as a bit bullish,not the best of approaches i know. thanks for your interest lads, as this thread involved a topic i know i can comment on i posted. i cant comment on the rights or wrongs of my approach,just to say i earn a living doing it.this is a tig root 3inch butt, root gap 1/8  2mm land, amps 90 on the root 2.5 filler. there was a 110 amp filler pass then  2.5 stick cap 75 amps. f/j
Parent - - By texasrigwelder (**) Date 05-04-2008 17:58
ya im 21 but ive been around pipeline welding  since a baby, im a 3rd genaration 798 pipeline welder, i just thought it was funny you were saying to do it right then u had an arc burn , there aint no welder that hasnt ever had an arc burn, it just happens some time , but as i have learned and been told is that any won u says hes so good isnt as good as he really is , if u really wanna work come out and gett on a big firing line with me on some 30inch then well see how slick u caps are
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-04-2008 19:38
ill bet you could tell some stories tex. the approach on this one was same as last amps, tig root , and fill ,just hot water but best do them right. f/j.
Parent - - By texasrigwelder (**) Date 05-04-2008 21:35
LOL IM DONE IVE SEEN GUYS LIKE U BEFORE
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-05-2008 13:40
with respect tex you havn,t, your not out of school long enough. this is the bottom of a 5g, this was 2.5 root opening, land 1,  2mm  amps 90 on the bottom, then down to 75 the rest. one filler run 3.25  90 amps. the cap is run on the same amps but you can benefit from  10 extra amps top and bottom. again  dc/en right through. f/j
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-06-2008 19:07
lads, the root i mentioned above is stick, i personally clean out completely and then fill 3.25 90 amps is a good starter, this pipe is light continental grade so 1 filler is enough. my approach is up fuse left and right, i think you call it christmas tree just keep the two lines. f/j
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-07-2008 16:56
this again is a filler run, the pipe here was heavier sch so there is a hot pass after the root. f/j
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-09-2008 16:25 Edited 05-09-2008 16:51
a quicker method of filling out,if your using a good set of rollers, roll the pipe away from yourself and lay your bead on the flat position.this means you can use a heavier rod and higher amps say 5/32  4mm and have good control. or if you are set for tig root, then tig filler ,if i can roll the pipe i would usually do these around the  10 oclock position up towards twelve
Parent - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-09-2008 23:03
well jimmy that may give you something to show your teacher, just that some guys burn 6013  dc/en. heres a couple of roots to finish f/j thanks for your time lads. f/j
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 05-09-2008 23:40
42 posts on 6013 rod? In '73 while in trade school the instructors handed us a couple of 6013's each and said run these so you can say you have. "You'll probably never see these again unless it's in your Grandfather's barn". Danged if they weren't right! 15 years ago I saw some for the second and last time laying around, in a barn no less, that we had leased to pre-fab some WaterTreatment plant piping. I ran a couple more just for nostalgia sake.
If memory serves me correctly, 6013 was not a radiographic quality electrode back in '73, and I rather doubt it has been upgraded since. Not 100% on this, correct me if I'm wrong.
My question is.... what code would support a proceedure written to qualify 6013??? On pressure piping?? Especially one that warrants GTAW roots.
Granted, those are some dam fine looking weave beads posted in this thread, especially if made in position. To get a continuous piece of slag through starts and stops certainly requires great skill.

Just curious about 6013 and it's application in industry today.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-10-2008 04:37
I can't say about today, but a metal stamping shop I worked in in the early '80s had built all of it's coil feed equipment and a lot of other stuff in house. They had 6011 & 6013 rods in 3/32 & 1/8 and an AC buz box. What more could a person need? We had a torch & brazing rod as well.
Parent - - By flange jockey (*) Date 05-10-2008 12:06
superflux, if your question is aimed at me im sorry but i can,t answer,i really am a numb nuts round all this jargon. i realise you are curious about the use of these rods, perhaps a little more reading. thanks for your interest. i don,t want you to take this wrong but had you dropped the phrase, correct me if im wrong, your post would not have made you sound quite so pompus. f/j
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-10-2008 15:18 Edited 05-10-2008 15:21
Superflux

E6013 can run clean Xrays... why not?

No cracks, no porosity, no slag inclusions, no lack of fusion, no underfill at the root, no undercut... It shoots clean. 

X-rays do not measure strength or hydrogen pickup eh?

Now restarts over slag are often a cause of porosity and lack of fusion at weld terminations... And I can't imagine getting pretty slags to stick to one another so they can roll off such a very artistic manner as posted above so many times without making a restart right on top of the slag, or backing right over it on restarts..

We use 6013 right off the bat in our school to teach the welders to strike an arc and run beads... It's the easiest rod in the world to run so it builds confidence right from the start (note FJ's wonderful confidence).. Slag is easy to remove and the welds are very easy to inspect and critique visually.

FJ... What kind of inspection methods are used on your welds when you finish them?  Just visual? or do they see X-rays?

PS.  That grinder appears to be missing a wheel guard and a handle.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-10-2008 15:35
Lawrence,
  Good eye on the handle, but I think I see the guard.

John
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-10-2008 16:36
He must have put it on real quick  :)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-10-2008 17:58
Maybe he saw you coming. LOL :-)
Up Topic Welding Industry / Welding Fundamentals / 6013 Reverse Polarity ???
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