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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / getting SHOCKED/Holbart
- - By LongArc (**) Date 05-02-2008 03:10
   I was wedling 2.5" inch sch40 pipe today. It was raining outside, off an on, all day. There was an 8 foot section sticking of my gassline running out of the building. I got shocked when I placed my hand on the pipe, inside, dry with out an arc being struck. I was using an non desiel, gasolene powered HOLBART welder. It happend at the end of the day. The 8 foot pipe was wet the whole time. I almost fell of the ladder when I was shocked, any time I toutched the work I got shocked. The ladder was plasic.  It dosnt add up. Holbart sucks...Has this happend to anyone...
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-02-2008 03:39 Edited 05-02-2008 03:56
LongArc,
  First of all, any welding machine with the brand name of "HOLBART" is most likely not worth the sticker that is on it.

However, HOBART makes some high quality welding machines.

None of this matters in your situation. I can promise you that the "brand" of welding machine you are using has nothing to do with you receiving a jolt.

So in short, it does not add up. There is something that you are missing.

I am very interested in, helping if I can, and for sure, the answer that you end up with.

Many possibilities.

BTW, there is now a "Safety" site and this is something, IMHO, that should be posted there as well as here. I usually would not promote double postings, but in a few situations I have seen it result in twice the valuable information.

Getting zapped has always been high on my list of safety concerns.

John

EDIT: Having said that I must clarify. There may be something wrong with the machine itself, but unless this is brand new out of the box, something is going on that would not be effected by what brand the machine is.IMHO
Parent - - By LongArc (**) Date 05-03-2008 17:31
The only thing I can think of it was raining outside on my pipe I was dry inside, an eight foot section was sticking out in the rain, while I was welding on it.  My Holbart machine was a "champion 16". Its older then dirt, It'll look at home next to one of those rusted out abandoned trackors with the metal seat with holes in it, that you see by a burned downold farm house, the one with the delapated split railed fence with post missing. Holbart sucks. I heard miller makes it. Is that true... If so what does that say about Miller.
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 05-04-2008 02:19
The Champ 16 is a single phase weld output. If you want an "arc", the Trailblazer 275 DC has a three phase arc that is very hard to beat.
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 05-06-2008 23:13
I have never seen a three phase weld output.
Griff
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 05-09-2008 03:32
Three phase weld output would be like that produced by the transformer rectifier machines that are using three phase input/primary power. A more steady or smoother arc is produced than produced by the single phase weld output.
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 05-10-2008 15:00 Edited 05-10-2008 15:02
Three phase input does not mean you have three phase output of the welding machine. That would mean 3 cables to the stinger. Whew!!

The "smoothness and steadiness" of the arc is determined by the design & construction of the machine, not the electrical input.

Griff
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 05-10-2008 19:34
"Crawl" inside a three phase welding machine/machines circuit diagram. Use different colored high lighter markers and trace the three phase ac input/primary coils.  Notice 4 wires going in, 3 "hot" legs and one earth ground. These wires go to the transformer. Coming out past the transformer coils is the secondary side; this is also ac.  The induced voltage from the primary to the secondary is three ac sine waves that are 120 degrees apart. The next step is the main power rectifier; this changes the three phase ac to three phase dc. This is on the two weld output cables. Connect an oscilliscope on the output cables and see the rectified three sine waves 120 degrees apart.
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 05-10-2008 22:55
Three is different from one.  If you had three phases going through the same stinger you would have a bad problem.
Good bye.
Griff
Parent - - By 522029 (***) Date 05-10-2008 22:58
Three is different from one.  If you had three phases going through the same stinger you would have a bad problem.
Two weld output cables??
Since you have crawled in there with your coloring sticks, just stay.

Good bye.
Griff
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-10-2008 23:23 Edited 05-11-2008 00:31
Hello Griff, I don't believe 357 max is trying to indicate that there are 3 different phases of current going through the stinger in the sense that you are understanding. I do believe he is trying to indicate that the way alternator/generators work are different than say DC motor/generators or batteries. DC from a battery is probably the purest form of power that can be realized, it contains no "pulses".
     Because of the configuration of the armature coils and field coils of an alternator and their set-up they will provide power but it will contain "pulses" for lack of better wording, with single phase generation these pulses will be further apart and thus could be considered "choppy", the three-phase generation of DC power will have the peaks of power generation located closer together per rotation of the armature and thus provide smoother power, in theory if nothing else. I am certainly not an electrical engineer so I don't lay claim to being exactly accurate in my description, yet I do believe I am fairly accurate in my interpretation of the smoothness of the arc. Just a few thoughts for consideration.
     EDIT: I need to requalify some of the information that I spoke of here. Motor generators such as SA 200's and the like are producing strictly DC output and can do so very smoothly so I would likely put them into a category all of their own. Many of the newer multi-process machines are generating power with alternators and can thus produce AC or rectified DC outputs. I believe the smoothness in the arc with these units can then be split as to whether this AC output is either single phase, rectified to DC, or three phase rectified to DC, hence my agreement that the three phase powered units are likely smoother. Once you throw inverters into the mix I believe you open up another set of circumstances and many other considerations. Technology and the evolution of it is certainly complicating my perceptions of ideas as I typically understand them or not. 
Best regards, Allan
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 05-11-2008 03:41
I appreciate your trying to help. I never thought all three phases would be going through the stinger, just trying to make a point with 357.
It is impossibe for all three to be in one conductor due to the different potential of each phase.

Thanks
Griff
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-11-2008 05:24
    357, I think using the word "phase" to describe the rectified output is probably not technically corect, and tends to confuse this issue.

    As You point out the ripple from the full wave rectified outputs would be visable on an ociliscope, and the rectified output from the 3 phase alternator will be quite a bit smoother due to the overlaping of the voltage peaks when compaired to the rectified output from a single phase alternator.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 05-04-2008 03:05
    If Your Hobart is old, it was not made by Miller. You need to figure where the power that shocked You is coming from, and fix it. Your machine may be a P*O*S*, but when new it would have been about the same as a  Miller Bobcat or a Lincoln G8, later called a Ranger 8.

     From My point of view, You need to repair Your machine, not ***** about it.
Parent - - By ZCat (***) Date 05-04-2008 03:09
maybe your gloves were wet?
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 05-10-2008 18:07 Edited 05-10-2008 18:13
ZCat - exactly, his gloves were soaking wet. And wait, wait, wait, we are dealing with a person that insists that the name on the side of his welder is holbart..............nuff said.

Yeah, I know, I know - what a smartass......

Had to edit this: Ive got a pre 80's Hobart mega arc 400 that I use for a yard machine. It runs a smoother arc than my over priced Lincoln 300 classic, for sure.

Now, I'm not bashing any company, but neither should this guy, especially over getting shocked cause his hands or body was wet..........am I wrong?

It was raining outside, was he never outside before he went in? Just being my over emotional, controversial, stubborn self - Sourdough
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-11-2008 00:13 Edited 05-11-2008 01:59
SD,
  I think on this one you will have to take the second position in the "Smart A**" line, as I stepped up quickly for the lead position on this one. LOL. Ref. my previous posts. :-)

John

EDIT: After reviewing my first post, I must retract my statement. You take the cake, as well as top dog in this one my friend. I sent a warning shot across the bow, and you smoked him. LOL :-)
Parent - By KSellon (****) Date 05-06-2008 21:44
Hobart Champion 16 w/Onan p216. Last machine made by Hobart Brothers. Miller converted it to the Champion 10,000. Too many variables to list for shock hazard.
Parent - - By mooseye (**) Date 05-09-2008 03:55
My first question would be "where was your ground attached?
If it was on the ground, that may have something to do with the shock!
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 05-10-2008 19:49
A clarification must be made. Ground or grounding as commonly referenced to the weld output is incorrect. That is the work connection completing the weld output circuit. Grounding referencing "earth ground" is taking voltage from the chassis of the weld machine to earth. The machine should have an earth grounding stud to connect a conductor to a driven earth grounding rod (electrode).
Check with the machine off/not running, with an ohms meter if there is continuity/ohms reading from the output studs to the chassis of the welding machine. If there is; check the stud connections to the machine and see that if the insulation is broken or some such thing that the voltage is able to short to the chassis.
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 05-11-2008 15:35
Us that run a mobile rig are never grounded to the earth. The only time I've been shocked bad was when I was wet, thus providing extreme ground to earth.............
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-11-2008 16:43
Hello Sourdough, I would have to agree that most that use portable welding machines will never bother to use ground rods. I know that I never have. I have, like many of you, certainly had my fair share of shocks and wake-up calls from the electrical gremlins. Used to do a lot of mill maintenance work, in the rain/snow, and whatever else mother nature had to throw at us. A lot of the time we would wear latex rubber gloves under our welding gloves and that would minimize the shocks that one would usually experience. Have certainly also put the electrodes under our armpits to hold them while changing out, the only dry spot left to avoid the tingle.
     Most of the newer machines do have ground lugs for hooking up ground rods, I don't know that the older ones ever had this feature. I will also say that if you are using the generation portion of a newer machine that it really is a good call to use them. Just a few additional thoughts to keep in mind. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 05-11-2008 21:19 Edited 05-11-2008 21:37
I suppose this brings up another topic: lightning. When I see that streak across the sky, I am JAMMING up my leads and squawking "see ya later".

Don't know how many of you remember what lightning did to me last year.

Don't know if it is still in the archives of the craigdailypress.com under "flash fire" check it out

it's electrifying.....?!

Thanks for the reply, Allan
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 05-11-2008 22:47
Hello Sourdough, now that you mention it, I do vaguely. Certainly wouldn't want to tempt the lightning gods or give em a chance at a repeat. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 05-11-2008 23:26
If there's lightening I quit indoors as well.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 05-16-2008 00:09
That bolt can get you right thru the sockets. Put in a bagel and you might be the one getting toasted..........
Parent - - By mooseye (**) Date 05-16-2008 03:19
There may be something to this if the machine is old. My portable rigs have a decal on them that says machine is internally grounded. Maybe the old ones weren't.
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 05-16-2008 04:32
Wet leather gloves are far worse than wet bare hands.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / getting SHOCKED/Holbart

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