Who's Job

By swnorris (****)

Date 03-12-2008 21:24

At our shop it's the supervisors responsibility to teach them. QC monitors for compliance to the WPS, but the supervisor also has to monitor his employees activities.
At another place I worked in the 70's and 80's, we had a burning and welding instructor who was responsible for all that, plus, he was responsible for training anyone who used any kind of cutting torch.

By new tito (***)

Date 03-12-2008 21:31

It "should" be the supervisor's job!!! But all too often the supervisor doesn't even know how to read the things you mentioned. So in situations like this, such as in my case, I try to make the welder a little knowledgeable in the subject. If they show interest and/or ask questions and actually want to learn. I will teach them or explain to them whatever it is they wish to know (within my own knowledge, of course). If they could care less about what is being shown to them, and disregard everything (also, such as in my case previously), then I make certain to watch everything they do and DO NOT cut them any slack!!!

In all actuality, it is the company that is responsible, so I guess technically the company can designate whoever it wants.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-12-2008 21:40

I think Tito makes the best point that can be made.

It's not necessarily who is responsible, but that *somebody* is responsible to engage new hires and make sure they not only know how to interpret instructions but that there is a system in place to guide new and entry level welders.

By eekpod

Date 03-12-2008 22:55

I know at our facility, I took it over a few years ago becuause the shop super wasn't doing it and niether were his foreman. I got fed up with people making mistakes and took over the entire training program for new hires, which also includes "ongoing training" as well.
Yeah, it was alot of work in the beginning, but it paid off big time in long run, especially since I now know exactly what info was given to them, and what they should be expected to know.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 03-13-2008 04:11

At the auto frame plant there were welding instructors, the new hires were not nessesarily welders when hired, they had all differing degrees of experience from none at all on up. This was production MIG welding on an assembly line.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-13-2008 10:02 Edited 03-13-2008 12:07

Strat: I think this is a very valid and interesting post. i would like to impart my two cents

I would say it starts with the floor/work/job supervisor cause more then likely he had something to do with them getting hired in the first place. Most places I have ever been the supervisor has the final say on who gets hired and he is involved in the interviewing process. NOW having said that the supervisor may or may NOT know jack about welding...therefore he delegates authority to whomever is the party responsible for training officially or unofficially in that trades group. Is the supervisor responsible that the new hire does not know jack....absolutely if the supervisor was involved in the hiring process. DOES that mean the supervisor is going to ensure that the new hire is a competent employee?...HELL NO.....in all reality that usually falls on the shoulders of his/her peers in the shop...unless there is a designated trainer...then the designated trainer is their scapegoat for all errors for at least 6 months. Basically if you have hired them out sans experience.... the coworkers have to determine if they are worth hiring in the first place...then they will voluntarily assist in reducing the shortcomings any prospective employee may have by teaching...if they determine he/she is a waste then their shortcomings will get magnified until they are replaced. Whos responsibility is it???? Well unless you have it written in stone somewhere......you got my answer.

Tito had the best response I have to agree....its all to true .....EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!

AS FAR as who's job technically it is to assure those welders do theirs correctly.....Well QA implements the policies, QC ensures the policies are adhered to, CWI shows the other two what they are doing wrong (in regards to welding), shows the welders what they are doing wrong, shows engineering what they missed in school (without embarrassing them too much) and basically cleans up the messes involved with welding. AS far as I can see its none of these folks responsibility to make sure a welder is trained up....however they all might be able to provide positive input to achieve that goal more effectively. BUT I certainly would not include (input on training welders) in their personal job description unless I was running the most innovative, aggressive, metalworking company on the face of the planet.

Just my measily $.02
Tommy

By CWI555

Date 03-13-2008 13:24

Quality is long term safety. Safety is everyones responsibility. You can put a name to the job, but at the end of the day, if welder A see's welder B struggling, or QC A see's welder B struggling, or supervisor, or manager, and on down the line, and they do and say nothing, then all are equally responsible. There is no I in team, scapegoat, nor hero. I've been in shops where the "golden arms" gripe about the less capable welders with comments like "im tired of carrying him" or "they are worthless" or other such comments. Instead of B***ing about it, why don't they go see the guy and help him out, instead of bringing him down even further.

In the day and time of competing with foriegn countries who pay peanuts, and pump out crap, a reputation of quality will stand out, and that is everyones responsibility.

My opinion for what it's worth,
Gerald

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 03-14-2008 23:08

Excellent observation Gerald in which I agree completely with you!!!

Respectfully,
Henry

By Ringo

Date 03-13-2008 14:36

In our facility,the welders are trained by welding OJT instructors,who are seasoned veterans in this industry.Myself,being the only CWI, I train them on visual weld inspection.

By mountainman (***)

Date 03-15-2008 03:35

in my opinion if management does not delegate who is responsible for all facets of all operations it is an open invitation to chaos and disgruntlement, which is a recipe for failure and a bleak outlook for any company. i think it's great when the experienced guys help out the younger fellers, but i have also seen that not happen because the older fellows are afraid of being replaced rather than looking at it like a potential increase in quality work that can be done that benefits any company , and atleast at my shop that extra bottomline increase does make it down to the guys busting their butts out in the shop one way or another.

a little off topic, sorry.
JJ

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-15-2008 05:37

jj
I don't think thats off topic....its a very valid point on why a lot of times the shop just stands there and watches someone drown. AND ill go you one further on that score....Unfortunately a lot of people believe the only way to prove their own worth is to try to point out any and every flaw in their peers.....makes me sick but it is rampant in my shop....thats ok tho...lots of new hires coming in and I know that not all of them will be tainted by this philosophy. In the end driven, teachable folks will overcome that archaic and stupid mantra. I just sit back and laugh when I see those arms folded and here that talk of how critical someone thinks they are to the workflow happening.

regards
Tommy

By aevald

Date 03-15-2008 07:16

Hello mountainman, I'm coming in a little bit late on this one, but what the heck. Some of the best and most "comfortable" shops that I have worked in have also been the most "cross the T's and dot the I's sorts of places". Everyone knows what their responsibilities are and at the same time they are willing to give a hand to anyone else when they see the possibility for helping them out. Companies that promote this sort of work environment and are willing to show their appreciation in meaningful ways are the ones who are generally much more successful and have greater loyalty shown by their employees.
   I have experienced shops where the employees are expected to keep to their specific tasks and are chastised or reprimanded when they venture outside of their specific job duties. In similar cases, the senior employees are as you mentioned, are reluctant to offer help and think that they are insuring their positions when in reality this sort of attitude may be the very reasons why they are shown the door. Many mistakes are made, shortcuts and process streamlining are almost non-existent, moral is in the basement. Other places have a mode of operation that still has specific expectations of their employees, yet they realize that questions can be answered, suggestions can be made, mutual improvements can be made through asking questions and considering alternatives. Helping their fellow worker can be a really positive addition to the shops bottom line and thus the businesses overall success and the livelihood of their employees makes everyone happier and more productive.
   What is unfortunate to me is the lack of consideration for alternative operational models by many business owners, managers and the like. You have likely seen these places, they have a market that could support them and their companies in a very grand style, yet they choose to approach the management and business practices that they do and end up having to settle for less than they would if they would consider making a few minor changes.
   In some cases I have seen large factions of employees from a particular shop split off from a company such as some of the less successful ones that you described and become successful companies based solely on not repeating the short-comings of the company they left. Might be a little off-topic but definitely important items to consider as much as anything else. Best regards, Allan

By CWI555

Date 03-15-2008 11:19

JJ,

"i think it's great when the experienced guys help out the younger fellers, but i have also seen that not happen because the older fellows are afraid of being replaced rather than looking at it like a potential increase in quality work that can be done that benefits any company"

That situation is detrimental to the company. Those older fellows as you call them, should remember that it's that same experience that makes them worth having, but deliberately withholding that experience for being afraid of their jobs is un-acceptable. My opinion is, anyone like that should be shown the door.

Management can delegate all they wish, but if the people on the floor are not peer checking, it's an open invitation to poor quality, and potentially very costly mistakes for the company.

By 803056

Date 03-15-2008 13:08

Everyone that has taken time to respond has seen or worked with shops that have good training and those with poor or no training.

The good shops have a system in place, be it informal as the shop foreman putting a new hire with an experienced welder to learn how that shop "does things" to the shops that have a formal training program where there is a full time instructor or an outside "trainer" that is bought in to provide the training on an "as needed basis".

A formal apprenticeship is more and more difficult to find in shops although the outside unions have excellent apprenticeships that provide both informal education by teaming apprentices with journeymen and mandatory formal classroom training during the evening or on weekends.

I provide formal training for many clients that work on military contracts that mandate formal training to ensure the welders understand what is required to perform the welding. We cover welding symbols, metallurgy, welding processes (as applicable), weld discontinuities, visual inspections, and the specific requirements of the WPSs and applicable military standards. There is also a written test as well as the actual welding test before the welder is allowed to weld any product.

Other clients hire me to provide hands-on training to improve welding skills as well as how to read welding symbols and what ever other subjects the client wants to address. Some of these smaller clients send their people to various seminars that I am involved with. Some seminars are "breakfast seminars" that cover some basic aspect of the building industry for the price of a good breakfast (which is included) or through AWS at the local level (last month I conducted a nine hour seminar on metallurgy for $100 per person) or multi-day seminars offered by AWS or ASME (coming to a city near you!). These programs are cost effective and applicable to welders, inspectors, and engineer.

As a youngster I've worked in shops where no one taught anyone anything and they had employee high turn-over and low moral. I've also worked in larger shops where they placed me with a more experienced welder to learn the ropes. I've also completed a three year apprenticeship that included classroom training and on the job experience. I have to tell you that I enjoyed the apprenticeship program and enjoyed that working environment much more than the others and I, like most people, stayed employed by the craft that I served my apprenticeship with for many years.

My experience is that those employers that provide high quality training have less turn-over, better pay, and the best employment opportunities. They also seem to be successful companies that have "staying power", i.e., they are in business for the long term.

Management that doesn't recognize the need to provide some form of training is destined to fail. Even small shops that place new hires with experienced welders can provide the training needed to ensure the new hire will be productive once certain skills are acquired, but no one is an expert with out training and the experience needed to hone those new learned skills. Training takes time and money. Its a fact of life that isn't going to change. It doesn't matter whether an individual is a welder, inspector, manager, or engineer, no one is born with the knowledge and experience required to "perform" in the workplace.

Who is responsible to train new hires? The employer is and will if they intend to be profitable and in business for the long haul. If the employer has no system in place, look for another job with a different company.

I commend those individuals that take the initiative to "take someone under their wing", but that is not a long term solution for the person with the initiative or the new employee. Such a company does not see the "big picture" and they will experience high turn-over rates that do not bode well for a company's long term survival because they are in competition with the "bottom feeders" (low profit margins) of the industry they serve.

Best regards - Al

By strat

Date 03-15-2008 17:28

The reason I asked this question is for the response and I agree with you all.I was recently hired at a strctural steel shop as their cwi.When I arrived the only wps's that they had were in one book on the back shelf.The welders had not a clue so I took it upon myself to work with these guy's and started classes every week on weld symbols,weld discontinuites and wps's step by step.The welders were and are eager to learn all that they can , they just were never shown.
Their super also sits in on the classes, he not only had a clue either,he did not know what a wps even was.It was pretty much a mess when I arrived,to be honest I don't know how they stayed in business.I was told upon arrival that they
let anything go that was within a 1/4" tolerance.Now they are wps's through out the shop,the welders are better trained and those guys are willing to help and work with each other.I do not meen to come across as a brager but we just did a couple of 500 ton jobs and the erectors were very satisfied and thier response was that everything just fell in place I was very proud and felt like that was an accomplishment not only for me but the shop.

Thanks everyone
strat

By mooseye (**)

Date 03-16-2008 00:26

To me, that last sentence says it all. "the erectors were very satisfied and thier response was that everything just fell in place". I have had erection jobs where it seemed every piece had to have some sort of rework, and I have fabbed jobs myself,outside in the gravel, that you didn't need the plumb bob except on the first columnn, so I know it can be done. It just takes a little pride in your work an attention to drawing and detail.

By mountainman (***)

Date 03-16-2008 02:38

i've gotta say to all of you that this forum is tops on my list to learn from, not only does a person get real life facts but you get to read how others in this industry see things through their eyes, to me it's like when your granpa used to sit you down and explain how it (whatever it may be) works. truly priceless, and if used properly definitely would make anyone a better person. i'm soakin it up.

thanks,
JJ