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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / All the way around symbol
- - By pataterchip (**) Date 05-20-2008 19:58
The part is small machined "T" beams come to gether at different angles. On what I would discribe as the flange side or the flat part on top of the "T"  there are 1/4" thick triangular gussets covering the intersection of the beams. The symbol shows a arrow side fillet weld with the all around symbol. The question... does the all around symbol negate the arrow side other side disignation. I other words after welding the gusset every where possible to the flat Flange it is laying on is the contractor required to also weld the other side of the plate to the edge of the flange and wrap the corners.

First post and in a hurry...
Attachment: gussetsketch.pdf (12k)
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-20-2008 20:12
pataterchip,
First of all, let me welcome you to this forum.
I see you are in a hurry. Is there any way you can scan and attach the view in question? This would sure help expedite an answer. If you can get it to an electronic format, go to your original post and hit "attach" find your file and hit download, and it will attach to your post. If you need any assistance with this send me a private message and I will help where and if I can.

jrw
Parent - - By pataterchip (**) Date 05-20-2008 20:24
My question is does the symbol require welding where the hidden lines on item 16 and 17 are shown?
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-20-2008 20:51
pataterchip,
  IMHO, no. Fillet weld on arrow side only all around the two pieces. I have indicated on the attachment where this is called out to be welded.

John
Attachment: img-520155255.pdf (9k)
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 05-20-2008 21:13
would aws a2.4 (07) figure 9 apply
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-20-2008 21:15
hogan,
  If my interpretation of EOR intent is correct, then yes AWS A2.4 figure 9 would be the better way to call it out. IMO :-)

John
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 05-20-2008 21:27
a weld all around both sides of the plate
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-20-2008 21:36
hogan,
  I am sorry, I jumped the gun with my answer. You have referanced AWS A2.4 figure 9. Please call out a letter referance as figure 9 has A thru E. :-)

John
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-20-2008 21:44
It is probably (b) that is being referred to. It does indicate continuation of the weld. However there may be some issues for clarification if D1.1 is in effect.
Parent - - By hogan (****) Date 05-20-2008 22:14
as pipewelder has said b or i think c would also cover it.
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-21-2008 12:23
hogan,
  When presented with this view and interpretation, I would have to say, RFI to the EOR to clarify the true intent of the symbol in question, as it appears, IMHO, that it could be interpreted both ways.

jrw159
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 03:42
Hi John!

There still is a problem with the PM service because, when I attempted to reply to your PM, the same message appears in red saying:

"User doesn't exist."

'If you think this is a real error, you can inform the administrator. Please include the exact error message and the time of occurrence."

Now, I have already contacted Ross regarding these glitches, and he says that they're working on it so, I guess we'll just have to wait until they find a solution to the problem which usually is being caused by upgrading software that isn't thoroughly debugged because of the rush to push the software into the market without taking the time to thoroughly work out the bugs or potential conflicts that usually occur when one upgrades their software packages or service packs. ;)

Case in point: remember how Microsoft touted windows Vista as being the greatest improvement since windows 95??? Then, look at how many folks switched back to windows XP because they decided that they would rather wait until microsoft came out with a service pack which btw, still doesn't solve most of the issues with the original versions of vista...

Then to add insult to injury, microsoft announces shortly after their release of what looks like the first of many service packs for windows vista, they decide to cordially inform their dedicated users that they will discontinue support for windows XP in - I forgot what month but, in 2009!!! To heck with them!!! I'm going to become dedicated to linux instead!!!

Anyhow, My health is steadily improving, and I'm working more with less and less pain that used to make it unbearable to do so on a steady basis so, thanks for asking!!! ;)

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 10:23
Morning Henry,
That message seems to come and go for me when using the PM system.....I haven't been able to put my finger on it exactly, but it is frustrating to try to use the PM system and end up getting that message.

Here is a "trick" if you will, that seems to help me get around this....find the user that you need to PM by looking up a post by this user....then click on the name and send a PM from there.....try this and let me know if you can get it to work.

I've tried going through the menus in the PM system and I get that same error message you do.
Parent - By ross (***) Date 05-24-2008 16:26
PM reply problem is fixed.

Ross
AWS
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 11:44
Henry,
  I HATE VISTA!! We got the shaft on that one from Microsoft, IMHO. :-)

Take care,
John
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 05-23-2008 13:07
Just some background...

There are a few reported bugs with the upgrade.

1. One person reported that they can't find a particular old post. We haven't been able to reproduce that; all the old posts are intact and the improved search function appears to be working fine.

2. Two people are having problems with message notifications disappearing. We have not been able to reproduce that. Message notifications do disappear from the main forum page once you read them, so that may be what people are experiencing. Looking for more reports to confirm a possible bug.

3. The personal message reply function is temporarily broken. This is not due to a bug in the software itself, but due to a user database customization we did so that AWS members can use their AWS login info on the forums without having to set up a separate account.  This is being worked on. The temporary workaround is to click on the poster's name and send a PM via their profile.

We don't rush upgrades just for the sake of upgrading. We feel it is important to stay consistent with the current stable version of the forum software for security reasons -- to stay one step ahead of hackers.

Ross
AWS Marketing

P.S. Henry, if you are thinking about Linux, try the free downloadable Ubuntu version and you will never go back to Micro$oft again. It also includes free open-source Office programs that are totally compatible with Word, Excel, etc.  Good health to you!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 13:38
Ross,
  Thank you for the update. In regards to #2. Did it not used to be that you could click on the reply notification and be taken to the reply, and still have the notification there until you hit the "remove notification" option? Now the notifications are removed automaticaly after you click on them. I may have not communicated this correctly when I first inquired about it.

Thanks also for the information about Ubuntu version, i will look into it as well.

John
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 13:48
Yes, the notices now disappear after viewing, whereas you used to have to hit the remove notification button.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 05-23-2008 13:58
If that's the case, it's not a bug but a feature change. (But I thought it always worked that way.) Sorry if the new way is inconvenient. The PM message notifications are preserved under "Messages" on the top menu, by the way, until you delete them. (But not the post reply notifications.)

If we have a lot of people change to Linux, we can start a forum thread on it.

Ross
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 14:41
Ross,
  No it is not an inconveniance, it just caught me off guard when the feature changed.

Thank you for your time and patience.

John
Parent - - By pataterchip (**) Date 06-05-2008 22:54
I just got my A2.4 book and figure 9 along with 5.10.1 answers my question. Yes we will be required to weld everywhere the plate comes in to contact. I was not satisfied with the answer the Engineer gave me so I bought the book (really should of had it before anyway) and man am I glad I spent a little money to CMA. I would have really burned a bridge with our customers QC guys and the engineer.

Lesson learned: Buy the books and do your own research before questioning people that might know what there talking about.  
I appreciate all your help.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 06-06-2008 00:23
Thanks for keeping us posted.

Glad everything worked out well.

jrw159
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 05-20-2008 21:41
One thing to keep in mind or maybe address with the EOR is the fact that AWS D1.1 prohibits continuation of a weld around opposing planes. This is oft overlooked on design and detail drawings.

2.8.3.5 Opposite Sides of a Common Plane. Fillet
welds on the opposite sides of a common plane shall
be interrupted at the corner common to both welds (see
Figure 2.8).
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 05-21-2008 14:12
Does the all around symbol negate the arrow side other side disignation? In my experience it does.  The detail has to show that the joint is to be a .25 fillet weld, and the arrow has to point to something in order to reference the member that is to be welded.  The all around symbol is added after that, and at that point the arrow side and opposite side are negated by the all around symbol, which tells me that anywhere that member comes in contact with another member, it is to be welded.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be "all the way around".  The only thing I'd address the engineer with is the issue Gerald brings up, but I guess if you're addressing that, you may as well ask for an interpretation of the all around intention.  After all, You've got nothing to lose by asking.
Parent - - By pataterchip (**) Date 05-21-2008 19:54
In figure 3.1 of standard welding symbols it shows a single bevel on both sides of the reference line with the all around symbol if there is no side significance then why is there a symbol on both side of the reference line.
Attachment: allaroundsymbol.doc (24k)
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 05-21-2008 20:19
I don't know why.  A symbol on either side of the reference line would be sufficient.  My field is structural steel, and I can't think of any instance where the same symbol is on both sides of the reference line and both have any significance, unless it would have something to do with the location of the bevel on the opposite sides. 
Parent - - By pataterchip (**) Date 05-21-2008 20:38
Say for example you had a 12"x12" plate with a 8" by 8" plate flat on top you could weld al around your 8" plate but if you over hange the 8" plate you would now need two symbols as the third side would be in an opposing plan correct?
you would not weld 3 side then flip the part and weld the third you would have to tie the 4 sides together to acheive the "all around.
Parent - By flamin (**) Date 05-22-2008 01:27
In my experience, though I mostly deal with machining drawings, any dimension or feature callouts in a particular view, pertain to that view unless otherwise noted. Which means that if a weld was intended for the back side, the weld symbol would have arrowside/otherside or there would be a backside view, also with an arrowside symbol. So I would interpret the drawing the same as jrw159 has. But on the other hand, It would seem more logical (to me)to have welds on both sides to maintain balanced symmetry. I would IMHO ask for clarification as well.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 03:16
What's missing in this query is the set of drawings in which this detail is being taken from because without having access to the reference drawings of this detail drawing, no one in here can make a logical call on this... For instance if the supporting drawings are not included along with the general notes that may or may not have a reference as to any rationale being used to use certain welding symbols in specific manner for the detail drawings. then, the only individual that can offer some clarification to the query is the EOR! That person's stamp will usually be found on the main set of drawings if he's the structural engineer who approved the drawings with the details in the first place, or somewhere in the title block.

So as others have mentioned before, get an RFI because, if you choose to assume that you're almost positive that the welding symbol is to be interpreted in one manner or another, then you're just setting yourself for re-work and aq very intense "arse" chewing if you're so lucky to get off that easy!!!Always remember that almost is just that, and nothing more!!! The other thing to remember is that when you assume something??? Well, you're only making an "arse" out of yourself and the other person involved, which in this case would be your immediate supervisor or whoever it is that's responsible for your decisions and actions!!! So, ALWAYS CYA!!! ;) Btw, please do get back with us when you do get clarification from the EOR, and all the best to you!!!

Respectfully,
Henry 
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 20:16 Edited 05-23-2008 20:28
I'm with you on this one Henry.

Too many people don't keep up to speed with the most recent revisions of the welding and NDT symbols and the others make up their own when they don't see a symbol that fits exactly what they are trying to do.

I had one project where the engineer drew a 3/4 circle at the apex of the leader and reference line. When I called him to get his definition of what the symbol meant his reply was, "Any idiot would know that it means almost all the way around!"

I admit to being an idiot, so we back charged him thousands of dollars for incorrect welding symbols since the contract specifically referenced AWS A2.4 and it stated that detailed sketches must be used where standard welding symbols are not adequate to describe the required weld.

That particular project was one for the "Book of Disasters". I nicknamed that engineer the "Kalvin Kline of welding symbols" because he created so many new welding symbols, it was almost a game trying to figure out what he really wanted. I should add them to the FC2002 update.

The attached sketch shows two KK symbols that I liked. The text are his explanations of what the symbols meant.

Best regards - Al
Attachment: KalvinKlineSymbols.dwg (21k)
Attachment: KalvinKlineSymbols.wmf (4k)
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-23-2008 20:18
"I had one project where the engineer drew a 3/4 circle at the apex of the leader and reference line. When I called him to get his definition of what the symbol meant his reply was, "Any idiot would know that it means almost all the way around!" "

BWAAHAHAHA!! That is definatly one for FC2002 Standard Symbols. :-)
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 06-06-2008 02:17
A symbol like you showed is used to show a double bevel (both sides beveled). It can control warpage among other things.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 06-06-2008 01:42
I agree with swnorris. "all the way around "  means just that, it's been my practice to start a weld and have the weld continue until the end connects the beginning.
also, when doing offshore work, would'nt you want welds( even opposing planes) sealed to prevent salt water from getting into cracks and having corrosive issues where you cant readily inspect it?
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 06-06-2008 15:52
I'm staring at D1.6 and 2.4.4.3 says
opposite sides of a common plane should be interrupted at the corners

I would say this is a poor detail. I always thought you couldn't apply an all around symbol if the part is not getting joined on all around it's profile when viewed from the front on.  when I detail joints that's how I specify it. If you looked at the view front on (even if the part is not on a flat plane) in order to be welded all around you would have to be able to weld the same joint configurating all around the parts silhouette. In this case if you did call weld on both sides of the gusset, besides potentially violating 2.4.4.3 (2.4.7.2 in D1.1?) you'll now be welding a fillet weld on the vertical section with a different profile and hence a different weld.

that's my 2c, but I think I'm more judicious in my detailing,  I'd just put on multiple leaders with breaks pointing to the 3 welded sides
Parent - By Bob Garner (***) Date 06-10-2008 22:58
I agree with Metarinka.

Bob Garner
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / All the way around symbol

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