D1.5 Welder Qualification

Date 05-19-2009 13:26 Edited 05-19-2009 13:30

D1.5 - 5.21.5.1 says "Cleaning between weld passes shall be limited to hand chipping and hand wire brushing"
It does not say you cannot use dental picks, bandsaw blades or anything like that.

5.21.5.2 says "Root or intermediate weld bead contours shall not be modified by chipping, grinding, cutting, or other means before depositing subsequent weld passes.:
So using a band saw blade, or file, or etc on your test is not outright prohibited by D1.5 (it might be by the contract, or test-giver's rules) However you cannot change the profile, or remove metal to help the next pass lay in better. All you can do is remove slag.

By motgar

Date 05-19-2009 14:13

Chet,

Does it mention anything about cap passes?

Does the start and stop, of a weld, qualify as the weld bead contour?

When you mention by the contract, or test giver's rules: Is it a time issue, or just a way to weed out inferior welders?

I remember this saying from a few years back; " A grinder makes a welder, what he is not."

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 05-19-2009 16:41

First off - I'm not a D1 committee member so this is my understanding from the printed code, and nothing more than that:

5.21.5.1 does say "Upon completion and after visual inspection, the weld may be made flush by power tools as newcessary in order to facilitate testing (see 5.26.1)

But I think what best describes what you can and cannot do is from the commentery C-5.21.5.2 "Personnel are not to be qualified if they cannot consistently make welds of proper profile and free of unacceptable discontinuities. Grinding and the other described actions would allow the correction of poor profile and the repair or removal of discontinuities in the test plate, allowing a welder with poor or unacceptable technique to, perhaps, pass the test."

So I do think cap passes are included in the prohibitions described in 5.21.5.1. You'll note that grinding is allowed only after the test has been accepted visually, and that is to allow for mechanical testing.

Starts and stops on the run-off tabs are not evaluated in the test. If they are within the test groove they are part of the weld contour.

The code has it's rules and the test-giver might add to that. A time limit is one example (Time is not limited by D1.5) . The test-giver is not supposed to allow modification of the weld profile but slag can certainly be removed. However, some may prohibit a file or hand tool that can cut metal because it could be used to modify the profile; while others might be OK with using hand tools and just watch that the weld is not being altered.

Frankly, if a welder screwed up because of some freak occurence beyond his/her control, I'd simply throw out that test plate and start a new one. But if a welder needs to grind the passes, then more practice is needed. Again - grinding is not prohibited on production welds (although there are practical limits and a repair procedure may be required) but a weld test is all about a welder's skills that will be carried into production. Rejected welds cost a lot of time and money.

By motgar

Date 05-19-2009 17:00

I currently do not have a D1.5 code book, so I can not follow along. I am just asking questions for my own knowledge.

Was not considering run off tabs. I had a 6G/GR test on my mind, for some reason.

Thanks for your explanation.

By eekpod

Date 05-19-2009 19:11

What my understanding of 5.21.5.1 is that they are telling you its ok to use power tools to prep the test coupon as necessary in order to facilitate testing. In other words you can grind the cap/ reenforcement off in order to do the bend tests.
It still can't be ground upon during the actual welder test. Only after welding is done, and it is visually accepted, then it can be cut up and ground as needed to get it ready for the bend test.

Also look at the commentray for C5.21.5.2 Root and Fill Pass Cleaning, it tells it all right there. Pg 342.
Chris

By JohnJohn (**)

Date 05-19-2009 19:04

Thanks for the input. I just realized I should have posted under D1.
I've never had to really use a grinder for my D1.1 test but have used a wire wheel to clean out slag. Sometimes on thicker plate coupons you have to adjust your heat as you progress because the plates heat up. This normally makes the slag peel easier, but the first (and most critical passes) the plate is cold and sometimes your heat can be a little off, making the slag a little more tempramental. you only get one chance to get the root pass right. I hate using a chipping hammer too much because it can leave little dents that show up as pinholes on the film. I usually try to scrape instead of hit with the hammer. The bandsaw blade works as a dull file that can help get any slag along the egdes that the brush leaves out. My best bet would be to find out from the company that gives the actual test what their limitations are. I thought since work is slow I could do a little practice, but I prefer to practice perfect by following the parameters allowed on the test. I appreciate everyones input.

By flamin

Date 05-19-2009 20:39

"........D1.5 - 5.21.5.1 says "Cleaning between weld passes shall be limited to hand chipping and hand wire brushing"
It does not say you cannot use dental picks, bandsaw blades or anything like that."........

Doesn't using the word "shall" in the first sentence, pretty much negate any other means of cleaning, other than chipping and wire brush?

Jason

By CHGuilford (****)

Date 05-19-2009 21:23

I'm not sure I understand the tack you're taking here but the key is the word "hand" (along with the rest of the paragraph, and the commentary). You can chip with lots of things.

I don't think the intent is to limit you to a slag hammer and a wire brush but whatever is used must not be powered and the weld passes must not be modified (ie. metal removed or hammered into a new location).

Frankly, if a dental pick is needed to get slag out of a tight corner, then maybe that should be just another practice plate.

By flamin

Date 05-19-2009 23:03

After reading that again, I can see your point.

Jason

By jsdwelder (***)

Date 05-20-2009 01:56

Couldn't agree more. If you need anything other than a chipping hammer and wire brush, my money says you are not likely to pass.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-20-2009 11:07

Another who is in agreement with Chet.....if the slag is that hard to get off, something is way outta whack, and if you have slag trapped in places that you need to dental pick it out, then you likely have slag in places that you can't see until the bend test is bent or RT film is developed.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 05-20-2009 15:03

Personally, any test I ever took seldom required more than the slag hammer. If you had to hit it more than once every couple inches to pop the slag off then things are not right in 'Weldingland'. The root may take a little more sometimes with the slag hammer. And the cap got a good wire brushing. Very little with the brush in between. No major labor effort to make it look like it was sanded to a shiny finish just to add more weld. If you can see it clearly, it is clean enough.

I've seen guys carry little screwdrivers, picks, files, all sorts of 'special' cleaning tools. Should not be needed.

I ran one the other day just to show my son it can be done, have you ever run a vertical groove weld uphill, 1/8" 7018, add new rod fast enough and everthing set right so the slag just curls up behind you as you go? No slag hammer needed. Had a curl going that was about 12" long before it popped from it's own weight.

This just to show, if settings are right, very little is needed to clean the weld. When testing, and on certain code jobs, the welds get cleaned with rod changes and between passes. Let it cool a little before hitting it with the hammer. It will pull itself loose to a degree as it cools. Proper settings and arc manipulation are critical.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By JohnJohn (**)

Date 05-21-2009 02:16 Edited 05-21-2009 03:10

I've made plenty of welds where the slag just falls off. This test is a 1" plate with 60 deg bevel, 3/16 gap, and 3/8 backing. 5/32 rod only. The coupons are RT, guided bend, then further examined at the state office in Austin. The root pass is the only pass that concerns me because it is tight with the 5/32. I'm not taking the test anytime soon but hope to do so this year. I have time to practice. If I'm going to drop close to a grand for this cert then it doesn't hurt to have a "special tool" on hand just in case I wake up on the wrong side of "Weldingland" come test day. The testing company said any hand tool can be used, so it's better to come prepared just in case. Sorry if I seem to have the red a**, just trying to be the best at what I do.

JohnJohn

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 05-21-2009 14:06

John, Your post was not taken negative by me. And I understand, especially when taking a test you have never taken before, you are doing the prudent thing. Find out all you can, have ALL the tools allowed available to you just in case, and as I stated above, because it is a test clean everything and leave nothing to chance.

After you have done it and welded within that code's restrictions for a while, you will be more comfortable and know what YOU are capable of doing and how little you will need to do to still be successful.

Good Luck, Have a Great Day, Brent And Keep Us Informed.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-21-2009 14:15

"just trying to be the best at what I do"---quote

Nothing at all wrong with that, that's why I love to see people ask those types of questions. Best of Luck on test day :-)

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-21-2009 14:19

"the first (and most critical passes) the plate is cold and sometimes your heat can be a little off, making the slag a little more tempramental."--quote

If they have a torch available, add some heat(but don't over do it) to your test plate, this helps clean it and makes the root go in there better.

By 803056

Date 05-21-2009 15:59

Please clarify how "preheating" cleans the plate.

I'm sitting here at my keyboard scratching my head wondering what you mean.

Best regards - Al

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-21-2009 17:06

Al, so that any cutting oils and such can be burned and brushed away...before you place your root.

By 803056

Date 05-21-2009 17:38

OK, but I would have thought those materials would be been removed with a solvent rather than by heating with a torch. It has something to do with using a torch around oily materials, fire, and flames, etc.

Who am I kidding, we all do it, but I guess it doesn't make it right. You would have to heat it to a rather high temperature to volatilize or "burn off" all the contaminants unless you hit it with a stream of high purity oxygen. I guess that the rub.

Best regards - Al

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-21-2009 18:01

Now Al, doesn't it "feel good" to wave the magic blue tipped wand over the material to cook all the stuff out of it and then brush it back down to bright metal?

....LOL

By 803056

Date 05-21-2009 18:11

As I said, "We all do it!" ;)

Best regards -Al

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 05-21-2009 18:24

If nothing else it gives you that good feeling that it's clean enough to eat off of....sanitized by fire....hahahaha

By 803056

Date 05-21-2009 18:27

LMAO

Al