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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Flare Bevel Weld symbol w/ or w/o contour?
- - By Heidi Boyd Date 05-03-2010 20:35
Can anyone tell me why, when you read thru AWS A2.4, it doesn't clearly tell you if a contour option is available to use with the flare bevel weld symbol?
I am Mechanical Designer, using Pro/Engineer. The cad application supplies a ready made template to create weld symbols. The template is based on AWS A2.4. When I choose
the flare bevel symbol, the contour option is not available.
Sooooooo, I read further...in the www...and in all the examples of contour used, in everything I've read....flare bevel is never shown with a contour.
This has led me to believe that there is some unspoken welders rule, that isn't written anywhere, that prevails!
Can someone *please* enlighten me? (I'm tired of reading stuff on the web!) (We all know you can't believe everything you read on the web anyway!)
Thanks!
Parent - - By ravi theCobra (**) Date 05-04-2010 00:13
What is critical is the outside corner radius.  If you look  the 2002 version of AWS  D 1.1  pg. 79  you end up with the mathematically limiting case  of the weld size being  ' 5/8 T 1' .

Take a look at the new code (don't have it yet  ) -   these  flare bevel welds have been  shall we say  interesting -
and I quote from  2002 AWS   "Effective Weld Size of Flare -Bevel Groove Welded Joints  =- Tests have been performed on cold formed ASTM  A 500 material exhibiting a " c " dimension  as small as  T 1  with a nominal radius  of 2 t .
As the radius increasesthe " c "  dimension also increases. The corner curvature  may notbe a quadrant of a circle tangent to the sides.  The corner dimension , " c " may be less than the radius of the corner.

AS a first approximation I would get a radius gage reading on your particular material  and go  from there  -
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-04-2010 16:30
If you are referring to the final contour of the weld, the supplement contour symbols can be added to any welding symbol. The contour symbol is appropriate if you are concerned with the shape of the final weld contour. The weld can be left in the final "as welded" condition or the face of the weld can be mechanically finished by adding the appropriate letter adjacent to the contour symbol.

If you were to use the concave contour symbol, it may impact the final weld size by reducing the joint penetration (weld size). The limitation on the maximum weld size listed by D1.1 allows the designer to reduce the required weld size provided the minimum weld size (based on the thickness of the members) restrictions are met.

The difference between the weld size permitted if the weld is flush with the surface of the adjacent members and the surface of the weld face is the actual weld size. Assuming the maximum weld size permitted is 3/8 inch (based on the smaller radii) and the surface of the actual concave face of the weld is 1/16 inch below flush, the measured weld size would be 1/4 inch. Assuming 1/4 inch meets the minimum size requirement, based on the thickness of the base metal, and the 1/4 inch weld provides the strength required, it is acceptable per D1.1.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Heidi Boyd Date 05-04-2010 22:09
Thank you for the detail! I soooo appreciate your clarity!
~H~
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-04-2010 16:26
Heidi,
My opinion: since per A2.4 the contour symbol is supplementary to the welding symbol, you can use it wherever it is appropriate.
That would include a flare bevel groove.

I would say the ommission of the contour symbol in that program is an oversight.  Much like Autocad that used to "invent" all sorts of new welding symbols (or was that the detailer simply blaming Autocad?).
Parent - - By Heidi Boyd Date 05-04-2010 22:16
I logged a PTC call (Pro/E's maker) and was told that WildFire 5.0, the welding template issues have been addressed and actually do make the contour option available! The bad news is we are currently using Wildfire 4.0 and they aren't making the welding template backwards compatible...:(

Hey! be nice to the detailers! Ya never know when you'll need them to help you out a lil bit with those very cool looking (and very functional) solid models...;)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-06-2010 02:17
Some of my best friends are detailers.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Heidi Boyd Date 05-06-2010 21:11
Al,
Some of my best friends are welders..:D
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-06-2010 12:09
I was a structural detailer BEFORE I was a CWI....and like Al, many of my good friends are detailers too.
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-06-2010 16:11
My sister almost married a detailer.  Dad convinced her to find someone with a REAL job.  She married a pipe welder. 

(easy now - just kiddin") :)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-06-2010 16:29
LOL....@Chet
Parent - - By supermoto (***) Date 05-06-2010 17:04
I have never done any detailing but we have soooooo many detailer problems from weld symbols that make no sense at all, multiple missing dimensions, or don't clarify what is needed to be done.  I could post really good ones.

I'm sure that just like any other job people miss things or are not experienced enough to know everything.  Sometimes it gets to be quite redundant.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-06-2010 17:35
I can tell some good stories too.....estimating departments love the cheap detailing prices at bid time....uggh.
Parent - - By Heidi Boyd Date 05-06-2010 21:13
There's a joke in there somewhere, but I'm not crossing *that* line!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-06-2010 22:58
Why pick at the scab, let it heal.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By CHGuilford (****) Date 05-07-2010 17:29
Maybe this will help.

We can have a little fun at the detailers' expense but I think we all realize - no job is really as easy as it seems.  Detailers have schedule crunches, they have to weed thru contract specs, send out RFI's, fill in missing information, more than one project at a time, etc. 

The more balls you have in the air, the easier it is to drop one.  Overall, detailers do a pretty good job.

One of the most humbling experiences a person can have - in the fabrication world that is - is to draw a sketch of something you need to have built.  Then you realize you left out basic info- especially as the foreman walks away, muttering "What an idiot".
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-07-2010 17:45
You are absolutely correct Chet.

What is so clear in our mind and what we put on paper may be two different things.

Then there is the question, “Who have we not poked fun at?”

Hopefully we have not left anyone out, lest they feel ignored.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-07-2010 18:15
When I was a trainee in the drawing room, practicing my lettering before anyone would let me anywhere near their drawings, they told me to make it so any 2nd grader could read and understand it. If I did this, then there should be no problems with anyone understanding the scope of what needs to be done. He wasn't knocking the shop, just saying to make it easy and clear to read and understand. This was back when you actually used pencils and taped your paper down to a drawing board.....LOL BTW, no smudges from those HB leads on the paper or you'll have some expaining to do.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-07-2010 19:08
I know what you mean about the smudges! I'm left handed, so the heel of my hand always dragged across the drawing smudging everything, lines, letters, everything! Not only my drawings suffered, but so did every paper I wrote for English class. Points of for smudges!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By swnorris (****) Date 05-11-2010 02:35
I think we should mention architects in this discussion.  In order to understand their way of thinking, we must first look at what they have to go through, just so they can be called an architect.  For example, here's a list of subject matter on their final exam:

1. Design:  God, in the Old Testament, had six days in which to design the world.  They have two hours, and they have to refine, correct, update, and edit this design.

2. History: They have to propose a hypothesis that encompasses the entirety of architectural history, including specific examples to support their thesis. They have ten minutes and cannot use more than one blue book.

3. Technics:  With the materials provided for them (three straws, a package of sugar free gum, twine (3.5 feet), a mango, and 12' of sheet rubber), build a structural model of Notre Dame.

4. Design:  In the space of a 10' square cube, they have to design, including adequate, AIA approved facilities, a day care center, a seminar room, a reception hall, and center for recovering claustrophobics.

5. Biography: They must redesign Le Corbusier.

6. Drafting:  In a 3" square space in their book, they have to draw Chartres Cathedral, including all windows, doors, surface contours, and a small congregation protesting in front of the Western apse.  This drawing must be referential in nature, but must include enough detail so that a scale model could be accurately built from it.

7. Rendering:  They must draw, in four-point perspective (including the time axis), the existance of the Villa Rotunda from 10:00 am on Wednesday, October 21, 1926 to 3:21 pm on Monday, June 5, 1984, including the Villa's location in relation to the rest of the universe.  For extra credit, they can plot the trajectory of the Villa Rotunda through the known universe for the next hundred years, including illustrations of the Villa in three different projections, as seen from Alpha Centauri.  If this plotting ends before the 100 year span with the Villa engulfed in the heart of a star, they must continue to plot the trajectory of the remains.

8. Theory:  Space. They must create it, and be prepared to hand it in with their exam.

9. Studio:  They must chronicle the effects of caffeine upon the nervous system over the course of five days of wakefulness, while graphically illustrating the loss of any body mass as a result of cutting board.

10. Design:  Without reproducing any of their works, or incorporating any of their ideas as precident, the potential architects must design a lunatic asylum for Le Corbusier, Mies van der Rohe, Rietveld, and Frank Lloyd Wright, while keeping in mind that the inmates will likely attempt to kill each other. and provide for this contingency.

For their bonus question, they must define the blue book's role in the spatial refinement and structural development of French Gothic cathedrals.

Once they become architects and get out in the real world, they begin to speak a different language, and common terminology takes on new meaning:   

    * Sense of Entry: The front door is big and far away.
    * Human Scale: less than 400 feet tall.
    * Skewed Grid: The design looked too boring with a regular grid.
    * Contextual: Is surrounded by a lot of other buildings the architect couldn’t tear down.
    * Theoretical: Nobody in their right mind would ever consider building the crazy thing.
    * Signature Building: You can’t afford it.
    * Less Is More: The designer ran out of ideas.
    * International Style: No country will take responsibility for it.
    * Deconstructivist: The backhoe ran into it during construction ­- and they liked it.
    * Jury: Firing squad.
    * Design Review Board: Failed architecture majors.
    * Architecture Student: Egotistical masochist with no money.
    * Contractor - A gambler who never gets to shuffle, cut or deal!
    * Bid Opening - A poker game in which the losing hand wins.
    * Low Bidder - A contractor who is wandering what he/she left out.
    * Engineer's Estimate - The cost of construction in Heaven.
    * Completion Date - The point at which liquidated damages begin.
    * Liquidated Damages - A penalty for failing to achieve the impossible.

Is it any wonder that we have problems with architectural drawings? Especially, when an owner submits his vision in the form of a letter to the architect, such as this one:

Dear Mr Architect,

Please design and build me a house. I am not quite sure of what I need, so you should use your discretion.

My house should have between two and forty-five bedrooms. Just make sure the plans are such that the bedrooms can be easily added or deleted. When you bring the blueprints to me, I will make the final decision of what I want. Also, bring me the cost breakdown for each configuration so that I can arbitrarily pick one.

Keep in mind that the house I ultimately choose must cost less than the one I am currently living in. Make sure, however, that you correct all the deficiencies that exist in my current house (the floor of my kitchen vibrates when I walk across it, and the walls don't have nearly enough insulation in them).

As you design, also keep in mind that I want to keep yearly maintenance costs as low as possible. This should mean the incorporation of extra-cost features like aluminum, vinyl, or composite siding. (If you choose not to specify aluminum, be prepared to explain your decision in detail.)

Please take care that modern design practices and the latest materials are used in construction of the house, as I want it to be a showplace for the most up-to-date ideas and methods. Be alerted, however, that kitchen should be designed to accommodate, among other things, my 1952 Gibson refrigerator.

To insure that you are building the correct house for our entire family, make certain that you contact each of our children, and also our in-laws. My mother-in-law will have very strong feelings about how the house should be designed, since she visits us at least once a year. Make sure that you weigh all of these options carefully and come to the right decision. I, however, retain the right to overrule any choices that you make.

Please don't bother me with small details right now. Your job is to develop the overall plans for the house: get the big picture. At this time, for example, it is not appropriate to be choosing the color of the carpet. However, keep in mind that my wife likes blue.

Also, do not worry at this time about acquiring the resources to build the house itself. Your first priority is to develop detailed plans and specifications. Once I approve these plans, however, I would expect the house to be under roof within 48 hours.

While you are designing this house specifically for me, keep in mind that sooner or later I will have to sell it to someone else. It therefore should have appeal to a wide variety of potential buyers. Please make sure before you finalize the plans that there is a consensus of the population in my area that they like the features this house has.

I advise you to run up and look at my neighbor's house he constructed last year. We like it a great deal. It has many features that we would also like in our new home, particularly the 75-foot swimming pool. With careful engineering, I believe that you can design this into our new house without impacting the final cost.

Please prepare a complete set of blueprints. It is not necessary at this time to do the real design, since they will be used only for construction bids. Be advised, however, that you will be held accountable for any increase of construction costs as a result of later design changes.

You must be thrilled to be working on as an interesting project as this! To be able to use the latest techniques and materials and to be given such freedom in your designs is something that can't happen very often. Contact me as soon as possible with your complete ideas and plans.

PS: My wife has just told me that she disagrees with many of the instructions I've given you in this letter. As architect, it is your responsibility to resolve these differences. I have tried in the past and have been unable to accomplish this. If you can't handle this responsibility, I will have to find another architect.

PPS: Perhaps what I need is not a house at all, but a travel trailer. Please advise me as soon as possible if this is the case.

Yours Truly,

Mr Tom Mindchange
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-11-2010 04:09
Amen!

Best regards - Al ;)
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 05-11-2010 11:16
Thanks Scott, I needed that this morning. :-)

jrw159
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-11-2010 16:13
Only you Scott!!! Only you could come come up with such intricate detail which could convince most into thinking: "Gee Whiz? This guy's really on top of it!!! :) :) :)"

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 05-13-2010 15:51
interestingly enough I somehow took drafting classes for the last 2years they offered manual drafting in our district. The teacher was a retired old school architect and a real stickler about line weights and smudges.  We would get graded real harshly if we had any smudges.

Drafting is sort of a dead art now, but I'm glad i got to at least give it a shot and compared to modern CAD realize how long it would of taken to make one print, never mind talk about drawing changes and the likes. If ever there's a long term power outtage in the united states the entire engineering world will collapse when we realize no one knows how to make a blueprint without computers.

.My first task as an intern was to detail all the weld prints for my company, I would get a stack of about 30 prints today, with errors caught by the welders or clueless engineers who didn't want to do the work themselves. Very good experience becoming well versed with welding symbols and it made the welders happy, because i made no nonsense easy to understand weld prints.
Parent - - By Heidi Boyd Date 05-17-2010 21:54
Al,
I'm surprised that no one has poked fun at the fact that I'm a woman and a designer...and naturally blonde...<it's why I have such a good sense of humor..;) >!

On a more serious note, designers do juggle many things at once. We need to know a little bit about a lot of different things, enough to make things work. Obviously the more we
work in one area, the better we become (hopefully!). Being detail orientated, having excellent conceptualization skills and being intelligent enough to know I don't know it all and ask questions from the right people has gotten me pretty darn far in my career..:)

Thanks everyone for taking time to answer my question!
You guys are all keepers!..:D
~H~
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-18-2010 03:27
How can we poke fun at something so serious as a woman working in a "gulp" man's field?

My beliefs are shattered, and now you tell me you are a blond? When will it end?

There are too many problems in this world that need solutions to worry about who does the number crunching, who presses the keyboard, or who turns the knob, as long as the work benefits the human race in one form or another.

My boss is a woman. She sends me off to work in the morning, tells me to take out the garbage at night, has a warm meal waiting for me when I get home, and is my best friend. What more can I ask?

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-18-2010 16:15
Never met her Al but your wife has my utmost respect. And sympathy.  :)
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-19-2010 03:29
I have to say, she does have a good sense of humor. Lucky for me.

Al ;)
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-18-2010 16:24
Heidi,
"I'm surprised that no one has poked fun at the fact that I'm a woman and a designer...and naturally blonde...<it's why I have such a good sense of humor.. >!"

Nah. Women in these fields are not such an uncommon thing. And its a good thing.
At the risk of sounding cliche'd, some of the most accomplished intelligent, and competent people I know are the professional women I work with.
And some of my best friends are blondes.
But I don't think anybody really likes designers.  :)
Parent - By Heidi Boyd Date 05-18-2010 20:06
js55,

Of course no one really likes designers, it's because everyone loves them!..:)

~H~
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-19-2010 03:28
Men don't count JS!

Al
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 05-13-2010 16:21
Heidi,
"We all know you can't believe everything you read on the web anyway!"

We're reading your post on the web.  :)
Just kiddin. I do not have a ready answer but I'm sure some of the contributors will.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Flare Bevel Weld symbol w/ or w/o contour?

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