The catholic-islam connection

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-01-2011 15:20

Mohammad was a real man and no invention of the Church...

The church in Rome and the Church in Constantinople were far too busy dealing with one another, for one or the other to cook up a scheme to deal with minor denominations or control of the "unchruched"...

Iraneus pretty much took care of the Gnostics in the 2nd-3rd centuries with his pen. Denominational strains between Christian churches were not really that big an issue.. The various "councils" were pretty effective at working out theological disputes.

What Mohammad did and the Caliphiate who follwed him, was in no way subsidized by the Roman or Eastern church... Certainly not some control scheme gone wildly out of control...

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 10-01-2011 19:20

So you think that the Church had no influence on Moe in his life?

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-01-2011 20:25 Edited 10-01-2011 20:30

The Christian faith had a tremdous influence on Mohammad... He was a Christian heritic; meaning, he was trained up and educated in an environment where Christianity flourished, but Mohammad ultimatly rejected the diety of Jesus, and went in another direction.

The politics of the Church in Rome and the Church in Constantinople had nothing to do at all with the Visions Mohammad had, or his obedience to the commands the "angel" in those visions gave him.

Mike, There are alot of things that can be laid on the doorstep of the Roman church.. Islam is just not one of them, in my opinion.

By 99205

Date 10-01-2011 17:10 Edited 10-01-2011 18:23

Sound like another one of those internet stories, that has no basis in fact. Here's a page with charts showing some interesting info. Surprisingly there's not that much difference between the two religions. It's just that Islam has a bunch of lunatics running the show.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_islam.htm

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-01-2011 19:11

"Surprisingly there's not that much difference between the two religions."

Christian doctrine states that Christ is God

Islam states that Christ was a man.

You can't get much more different than that. :)

By 99205

Date 10-01-2011 21:43

Christology, the study of Who Jesus Really Is, reveals him to be a man who actually lived on this earth.

http://www.whoisjesus.com/manJesus.html

By jbndt

Date 10-01-2011 21:46

Gee Doug,

You type fast ...

Yep, a man ... otherwise, how could he have died?

Cheers,
jb

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-02-2011 00:49

I agree.

Jesus who is God. Was a man who actually lived on earth.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-01-2011 23:53 Edited 10-02-2011 00:03

Actually it's the Son of God Larry. :lol:

Christianity recognizes Jesus as our lord savior... At least that's how us Catholics interpret it as such. :lol:

You know... Us "Trinitarians. :yell:

."

Respectfully,
Henry

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-02-2011 00:48

Henry,

Ask your Roman Catholic Priest exactly this question; Is Jesus God?

If he says "no". Than he disagrees with his pope.

His answer (when he tells you that Jesus is God) in no way is in conflict with trinitarian theology.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-02-2011 04:03 Edited 10-02-2011 04:40

Well then, I guess one could call me a heretic... That's probably why I no longer go to Catholic church and instead, go to my own church to pray, or seek sanctuary from all of these so called "interpreters" of what Jesus wanted us to know about him. :eek:

Quote: The Trinitarian doctrine holds that Jesus pre-existed, that is, lived before Bethlehem, as the eternal Son of God, the second person in the Godhead. But we find no eternally existent Son of God in scripture. Certainly not in what God teaches us in the Old Testament. An Eternal Son and the corresponding eternal generation of the son are phrases coined by Origen. Walter Martin, former head and founder of the Christian Research Institute, stated on the nationally televised John Ankerberg Show that Origen's statements were heretical, even though they are believed by most Trinitarians. Jesus was not in Old Testament times, nor is he now the second person in the Godhead. He is simply God, the God of the Bible, who manifest himself to creation as a man. The word Godhead, "theotokos" in Greek, actually means "the deity." No one can be in the Godhead. There is nothing in scripture to support this. There is everything in scripture to support the truth that God is one, alone in his category. In Trinitarian thinking, and even in Oneness thinking carried over from Trinitarianism, the word godhead is made to seem as a corporate term. The Godhead is thought of as being some sort of a panel, board, or composite of persons. We determine to put God and man in the godhead in a certain way. Only God is the Godhead. Nothing can be in the Godhead and only God is Divine. To say that someone or something is in the Godhead is inappropriate and unscriptural terminology. What scripture does express is the the fullness of the Godhead is in Christ. "All the fullness of the Godhead dwelleth in him bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Jesus was never and is not now the second person in the Godhead. Hebrews 1:3 tells us Jesus Christ is the express image [NIV states "exact representation] of his [God's] person. God is a person, an individual, an identity, a unique being. Scripture does not support the statement that within God's being are three persons. God is one individual, one person who was imaged forth on earth as Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:3 speaks of God and man, a visible image of an invisible God. It does not put forth the idea of a plurality of persons in the Godhead, nor does any other scripture.

When Jesus was born, God became a father and Jesus Christ was the Son (Hebrews 1:5). God was never a Father in a procreative sense before Jesus was born. Malachi 2:10 asks, "have we not one Father?" Yes, we have one Father, God who created us. But God was not a Father in a procreative sense until Jesus Christ was born. Hebrews 1:5 clearly indicates this, "I will be to him a Father, he shall be to me a Son." There was no father-son relationship prior to the Lord's conception and birth. There was not, back in pre-Marian times a relationship between a father and a son, certainly not a divine father and a divine son as eternal persons. The Bible emphatically declares I will be to him a father, he shall be to me a son, a future prediction of a reciprocally exclusive relationship.

Christ possessed two identities, two capacities. Jesus was both God and man. He could act in his capacity as God. He could act in the capacity of man. He could speak as God and he could speak as man. As a man he said, "I thirst." As God he could say to the blind man or to the leper, "I will, be thou clean, " without any reverence to being deity. In him were two genders, divine and human. Gender, as used here, does not refer to sexual differences but to differences of class or category of being. He occupied two classes, the only one who ever did. He was God and man, God manifest in flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

In Trinitarian thinking, and even in Oneness thinking carried over from Trinitarianism, the word godhead is made to seem as a corporate term. The Godhead is thought of as being some sort of a panel, board, or composite of persons. We determine to put God and man in the godhead in a certain way. Only God is the Godhead. Nothing can be in the Godhead and only God is Divine. To say that someone or something is in the Godhead is inappropriate and unscriptural terminology. What scripture does express is the the fullness of the Godhead is in Christ. "All the fullness of the Godhead dwelleth in him bodily" (Colossians 2:9). Jesus was never and is not now the second person in the Godhead. Hebrews 1:3 tells us Jesus Christ is the express image [NIV states "exact representation] of his [God's] person. God is a person, an individual, an identity, a unique being. Scripture does not support the statement that within God's being are three persons. God is one individual, one person who was imaged forth on earth as Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:3 speaks of God and man, a visible image of an invisible God. It does not put forth the idea of a plurality of persons in the Godhead, nor does any other scripture....

I'm so friggin confused!!!!

That's why I personally just use the K.I.S.S method as opposed to rationalizing all of this in the manner that certain scholars have interpreted as what is the truth.

Right! And so there's no longer any mystery that when Jesus was here on Earth, he was a man, yet when he left us, he became God once again...
Sounds plausible but, who was minding the heavens when Jesus was on earth??? Somebody had to be in that truly divine role besides Jesus when he was a man. :eek:

Wait a minute!!! Jesus is God!!! Well then that would explain it...You know - the rationale that Jesus could be both man and God simultaneously... Wow!!!
I am truly humbled and it's no wonder that Mohammed couldn't grasp this sort of theology...

Well then I guess one could initially call all prophets as being heretics at one time or another. :eek:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-02-2011 11:22

Hey Henry.

Pointy headed professors, and fancy robed theologans can be confusing!

I in no way was trying to get you excited or upset.. I'm Sorry.

Sometimes I forget it's a welding forum. I should know better than to respond to religious posts that are intended by their authors to do nothing more than stirr up hate for one group or another.

I like your K.I.S.S. notion, and in my opinion the Gospel of Christ and salvation through HIM is simple enough for a child to understand. Men who want unmerited authority go to great lengths to make things complicated.

I think the best way to know "What Jesus wanted us to know about him." is to read the Gospel of John... But read it with the specific intent of highlighting what Jesus says about himself.

By jbndt

Date 10-02-2011 17:24

Ah, but it’s the “Off-Topic Bar and Grill so all is OK!

God in Heaven and God on Earth at the same time? … No problem!
In Catechism I was taught … Omnipresent – Omnipotent.

You know, kind of like some inspectors we all have had the pleasure of working with. :eek:

Doh!
Did I say that out loud??? :wink:

Cheers,
jb

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-02-2011 20:12 Edited 10-02-2011 20:23

Yes you did!!!

So what! Now Larry, You didn't get me upset at all buddy... We were just expressing different perspectives that's all...
Besides, I enjoyed the conversation Larry. :lol:

Also, remember when Jesus was being crucified and asked his father to forgive the Romans for crucifying him???
Well then, I kind of find it hard to believe that Jesus was actually pleading to himself at that time which to some of us,
would observe that as acting kind of funny or even crazed... Hmmm... I don't. :lol:

Finally, Jesus did not want to be remembered as being omnipotent JB. :wink:

Respectfully,
Henry

By 99205

Date 10-02-2011 23:19 Edited 10-02-2011 23:23

Now you're getting into the area of trying to explain the Trinity. Theologians have been babbling about this for centuries and still haven't been able to explain it in laymen's terms. Are there three gods (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) or does it take three entities to make one god. I did ask this question once, is the Holy Ghost the mother of the Son. The Jesuit Priest, who was teaching the class, told me to sit down because he didn't like where I was going with my question. :lol:

By Pickupman (***)

Date 10-03-2011 00:59

While he was here on Earth Jesus was a human, but that is not how he began. At John 3:13 he himself said he had "descended from heaven". So he had a prehuman existence, but was it as a part of a triune god? Colossians 1:15 calls him the "first born of all creation", so God existed before Jesus, making him a "son of God", not an equal of God or God Himself. Colossians 1:16 goes on to say that "through him God created everything in heaven and on earth". Again this shows that they are not the same person or equal. Time and again while on Earth Jesus showed that he was separate and subordinate to God. In prayer at John 17:3 he said "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of You the only true God, and of him who You sent forth Jesus Christ". At John 20:17 he said "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." Since he had a Father and a God how could he be the same person? Again at John 5:19 he says "the Son cannot do anything on his own but only what he sees the Father doing". At John 7:16 he says "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to Him that sent me". Isn't the sender separate and superior to the one being sent? This is why at John 14:28 Jesus said of himself "The Father is greater than I". The trinity is a lie fabricated to confuse people and to dishonor God and Christ Jesus. It also fulfills the prophecies made in the first century by the Apostle Paul at 2 Timothy 4:3,4 and the Apostle Peter at 2 Peter 2:1, the Apostle John at 1 John 4:1-3, and the disciple Jude at Jude 3,4 that their would be an apostasy from true Christianity after their deaths. Is there a reason why even theologians can't explain the trinity, why when they get stumped they resort to, "well it's a mystery"? Yes there is. It's because it is not a Biblical teaching. If it was it would be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-03-2011 03:47

JW ?

By 99205

Date 10-03-2011 04:00 Edited 10-03-2011 04:06

Since we're quoting scriptures.

Augustine said that anyone who denies the Trinity is in danger of losing his salvation, and anyone who tries to understand it is in danger of losing his mind. It is not fully explained in Scripture.

In fact, the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. But, by the late second century it was being used by the church to describe a biblical concept—literally, tri-unity, or “three in one.”

This does not mean three Gods … though Christians have been accused of being polytheists by other world religions. Instead Christians have a unique view of God, one that comes about because they believe both the Old and New Testaments.

There are six basic biblical steps to understanding the Trinity:

1. There is one God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Deuteronomy 6:4 is one of the most important verses to the Jews, who believe in one God. It is known as the Shema: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”

Here is the Hebrew: Shema Yisrael: Yahweh Elochenu Yahweh Echad. The Hebrew language has two words that are translated “one”—Yachid and Echad. Yachid means an absolute one. Echad refers to a united one. Echad is the word used of God in the Old Testament—God is a united one.

2. The Father is God. (2 Peter 1:17)

3. The Son is God. (John 8:58)

4. The Holy Spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-4)

5. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct individuals. (John 14:26)

6. Therefore, there are three Persons in the one Godhead.

A typical, accurate doctrinal statement is this, Assemblies of God Fundamental Truth no. 2: “WE BELIEVE … There is only One True God—revealed in three persons … Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).” (See ag.org for all 16 Assemblies of God Fundamental Truths.)

Since the Trinity is completely unique, no analogy really fits. The Trinity is not really “like” anything.

But attempts have been made. The best analogies do not look at the Trinity as three parts that make up a whole, like these examples:

• Shamrock: Saint Patrick, who spread the Gospel in Ireland, used a three-leafed clover.
• Egg: Another common one—eggshell, egg white and yolk.
• H2O: The three phases of H2O—water, ice, steam—are better as an analogy but also fall short since any given temperature produces only one of these at a time. That picture leads to a false doctrine that says the Trinity is really only one person who takes on one of three modes at any given time. This belief is problematic for those who hold it: Just what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus was praying to the Father? Was He talking to himself?

The best illustration I have seen comes from C.S. Lewis:

• The three dimensions of space: Length, width and height. All coincide in the same place, yet are distinct.

By Pickupman (***)

Date 10-03-2011 10:25 Edited 10-03-2011 10:31

Yes, Lawrence.

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 10-03-2011 15:56

no intentions wow
With some of the FD up things you all post why do you all always seem to attack me?

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-03-2011 16:51

I dunno... Read your own posts.

The people who responded to your OP were able to respectfully turn the direction of what is obviously something intended to stirr the pot. You say you have "no intentions" Ok... I just don't read it that way.

Heck Mike... I made an observation and a judgement anyhow; Pretty sure I'm still allowed to do that.. Nothing close to an attack. Furthermore; your not the only person I've disagreed with by a long shot.

Maybe you shouldn't start threads if it hurts your feelings when people actually think about your motives.

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 10-03-2011 19:16 Edited 10-03-2011 19:18

no just wanted to know if any1 has ever herd of it Im not gettin pissy.
Ok
I really had no motive ..........honestly

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 10-03-2011 21:57

Well then that's Great... Let's all just let this thread end on a positive note as opposed to leaving it with anyone thinking in the negative with respect to any of us attacking them, or holding any hard feelings towards each other because after all, that's not what Jesus (The True Prince of Peace) would want us to end up being...

What I posted Mike was simply my own personal views, perspective, etc. It was not in any way an attack on you or anyone else for that matter...

In fact, I really enjoyed this conversation/discussion as it helped me look at other perspectives, and to be reminded of the various viewpoints in Christianity regarding the Holy Trinity, and how so many things as such as well as other topics are still not universally accepted to be absolute in our faith which I think is very healthy indeed...

However not once, did I read from any of the responders of your OP any hint of an attack, or critique, or anything else which may remotely hint that someone had taken issue with what you posted...

Finally, I'm in fact glad and commend you in starting this thread, and would only remark that it would have been nice for you to include yourself more into the discussion which did take place as opposed to reacting in such a way that would basically imply that we, or any single one of us were attacking, or criticizing your OP. :confused:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 10-04-2011 03:30

Mike I was thinkin about you this afternoon..

While I was reelin this guy in!

What a wonderful creation we live in.

Sola Dio Gloria!

By Mikeqc1 (****)

Date 10-05-2011 18:57

Yes This world wonderful creation.
Wish i had time to fish maybe when the boys get older.