E70T / E71T Qualification

Date 06-11-2012 14:10

"The manufacturers spec sheet also does not show it to be used in the 2G position."-quote

Can you tell us what the mfg of this wire is? Personally, I've not seen a E70T that could not be used in Horizontal positions. All of E70Ts that I've seen could be used in Flat or Horizontal.

BTW, what code are the welder supposed to be qualified to?...I didn't answer that question because the code may make a difference in the answer.

By torcoxb9 (*)

Date 06-11-2012 14:58

D1.1 and CSA 47.1-09 in the future.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-11-2012 15:22

"Can both the wires be put on the same WPS using prequalified joints or must they be kept seperate."-quote

I place both sizes on my pre-qualified D1.1 WPSs. Actually we use 1/16" and 3/32". The WPS forms we use are directly copied from the Annex and nothing really changes except that the wire sizes are listed on seperate lines and all of the pertinent info(parameters) for each wire size is spelled out on each line. Joint type, positions, base materials...etc..etc...are all the same for both. If there are different gasses, and mixes, and flow rates...or alot of other stuff that is different, then I would suggest writing seperate WPSs. You want to make it easy to read and understand so the welder can follow on his own.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-11-2012 15:28 Edited 06-11-2012 15:38

"If a welder is tested with a 5/64" E70T wire can he weld with a .045 E71T wire or must he be tested seperatly ?"-quote

If the welder tested on either size wire he/she is qualified to weld with the other. Electrode diameter is not an essential variable that requires the welder to retest.(see D1.1:2010 Table 4.12) Keep in mind that item (4) is talking about material diameter and thicknesses...not wire sizes.

edited spelling and referenced the year of the D1.1

By torcoxb9 (*)

Date 06-11-2012 16:28

We have seperate WPS's for E70T and E71T wire. My only concern is that we use the E70T for doing 2G welds which isn't reccommended. The reasoning is that the smaller wire isn't as productive. Should I have a seperate PQR and WPS for using E70T in the 2G position or can I leave it as is which has been the case for quite some time ? The E71T(or SMAW 7018) is only used when the weldment is out of position or for thinner materials.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-11-2012 16:47

If those wires will be used for different positions, then I would write seperate WPSs just to keep the confusion to a minimum.

I'm still wondering which wire that you have that shows E70T not being recommended for Horizontal welding. We've used ESAB, Hobart, and Lincoln FCAW E70T wires and all of them were Flat 1F,1G and Horizontal 2F, 2G. I regularly test our welders 2G unlimited with a E70T and rarely do I have any failures. We weld full-pen outriggers on columns and beams with that wire and that is all done in the 2G position. Full-pen stiffeners are all done in 2G...so that is why I'm wondering what wire mfg won't recommend their E70T in a 2G. We can turn/position all of our welding so that it is either Flat or Horz, so I don't even bother testing for anything else.
SAW wires tend to say Flat only, but that is due to the high currents and travel speeds of that process. Can you share what E70T, Flat only wire this is that you are using?

By torcoxb9 (*)

Date 06-11-2012 17:09

The wire is national standard.

By torcoxb9 (*)

Date 06-11-2012 17:23

I should clarify. It is NS E70T for 1G,1F and 2F.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-11-2012 18:02

Is this the same wire? They only listed one Fluxcore E70T wire on there. I couldn't find anything at all on their site about this wire other than MSDSheets and this Con of Conf...no technical info, showing welding paramters or anything.

http://www.heicowiregroup.com/files/1050110505FC%2070T%20C%20of%20C.pdf

By torcoxb9 (*)

Date 06-11-2012 21:32

Yes. There isn't much on their site, correct.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-12-2012 11:59 Edited 06-12-2012 12:02

What are the recommended parameters for that wire? Amps/Volts/Travel Speed/recommended sheilding Gas and flow rate...etc?

I never could find any of that info on their site...which is kind of lame.

Maybe they have you running the amps and volts so high that it is too fluid to run in 2G? or it is a dual purpose wire to also be used in SAW applications?

edit:
Well...according to the Cert of Conform, they didn't run all that excessive with the parameters...443a/30v w/ 100%CO2...that is on the upper end of my WPS for our 3/32" wire but it's not excessive for running a 2G unlimited plate test.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 07-01-2012 11:39

Sure

Use the easy E71T-X wire to qualify your welders and show the customer and those pesky inspectors that you can do the job.

Then when it comes to actually doing the job, use the crappy E70T-X large diameter wire that you have been spending the better part of the month telling us shouldn't be run in 2G and your operators can't handle.

Brilliant.

Easy stuff (when they are looking)

Stuff you can't do (when nobody is looking)

One day you will be a captian of industry.

By Dualie

Date 07-02-2012 00:01

sadly he just might be.

By torcoxb9 (*)

Date 07-02-2012 16:01

I am trying to get legitimate answers to my questions please. I'm at a new company and some of the things they been doing in the past do not make sense to me. As a QA/QC manager , CWI and a CWB level 2 welding inspector my intention is to do things correctly.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 07-02-2012 18:15

Ok

My legitimate response would be; As the QA/QC manager you should be motivated to make your welder performance qualification testing mirror production welding as closely as possible. With your experience I don't think you need a detailed account of what that means.

Are you also doing fillet break testing? Most production welds are fillets anyhow.

It really depends on the scope of your work... Dong things "correctly" can mean a few different things eh?

I don't see the things you have suggested to be non-compliant.... For welder performance qualifications under D1.1 a E70T-1 qualification will satisfy work using E71T-1 electrodes as far as essensial variables are conserned.

There is value in getting the most qualification for the least amount of testing.... But there is also value in devising testing that resembles production work........ Some people try to strike a balence, others go out of their way to make sure maximum training and testing is accomplished and still others just want to be compliant and not to spend a single penny above what that takes.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-02-2012 19:56

There is also the possibility that SOMEONE in the past didn't know all the production differences in the various electrodes available and just took what they thought was best or maybe what the shop was using at the time because someone liked it or got a good buy on a pallet load of it.

At any rate, sounds to me like you should really try to replace the old tests with ones that would be more current with your present usage and best available electrodes. Your people may not need to be re-certified but at least replace the WPS's and any PQR's that are out of date.

I added this under your post Lawrence because I felt it added to your comments. As he is new to this job and looking for advice on how to procede and make sure everything is in proper compliance there is probably some resistance from management in spending money they don't NEED to just because the new inspector says things aren't as correct as they SHOULD be. Having said that, I do agree with Lawrence overall, don't let them mislead customers from shear laziness and greed. It may not be BROKE, but it could use some preventative maintenence before it totally breaks and you end up with a job shutdown that could have gotten fixed right now while you are looking at it and have the ability to slowly change things to make them more compliant than they are. (Hope that run on sentence made sense)

Have a Great Day, Brent