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Up Topic Welding Industry / Processes / RCSC Snug Tight
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-04-2013 19:08
Why the change in definition of snug tight?
I got dinged in an AISC audit because my shop bolting procedure spells out the old definition of snug tight.

So instead of "the full effort of an ironworker using an ordinary spud wrench"...I have to edit to say "have been tightened sufficiently to prevent removal of nuts without the use of a wrench".

Really? What's the deal?
Parent - - By TAC (*) Date 03-04-2013 19:57
No mention of "firm contact"?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-04-2013 19:59
Sorry...I didn't quote it exactly word for word.

The old definition read:
"A snug tight condition is defined as the tightness that is attained with a few impacts of an impact wrench or the full effort of an ironworker using an ordinary spud wrench to bring the connected plies into firm contact."

New definition:
"Snug tight is the condition that exists when all of the plies in a connection have been pulled into firm contact by the bolts in the joint and all of the bolts in the joint have been tightened sufficiently to prevent the removal of the nuts without the use of a wrench."

Just curious as to why the need for a change in a definition that has stood for ages.
Parent - - By TAC (*) Date 03-04-2013 21:11
I suppose "full effort" could vary from ironworker to ironworker.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 03-05-2013 11:16
John,
I just assumed you knew it changed, sorry I didn't point it out.
I find it odd also, I liked the old one.
Parent - By bellaru (*) Date 05-22-2014 09:32
THAT'S RIDICULOUS I HIGHLY DOUBT THERE'S AN IRON WORKER ON THE PLANET THAT WITH THE USE OF A SPUD WRENCH WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO TIGHTEN THE NUT TIGHT ENOUGH WHERE IT WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO WORK ITSELF LOOSE WITHOUT A WRENCH.... AND IF THERE WERE,, THERE'S NOT A BOLT OF GANG ON THE PLANET THAT WOULD HAVE HIM..
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-22-2014 20:50

>I suppose "full effort" could vary from ironworker to ironworker.


Good point. I used to wring A325 3/4" dia bolts with a spud wrench just playing around with the skidmore and the new guys in the shop who were curious enough to stop and ask why I was testing new bolts right out of the can.
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 05-23-2014 15:17
We currently have a structural job in Corfu, New York that has some HSS with holes on one face at each end.  The drawings show bolts through the holes with the heads being welded to the inside of the HSS and the nuts snug tightened.  I'm concerned that even with a few impacts of an impact wrench, nuts can loosen from the vibration of the trip from Atlanta to New York, and bolts, nuts, and washers end up going through somebody's windshield.  I'd rather be safe than sorry, so we're sending the nuts and washers in separate packages.  I don't know that any nuts would back off, but if just one did, and caused an accident, the liability associated with that could be a major issue.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-23-2014 16:08
Scott,
Is there enough bolt to double nut?
That would serve two purposes, retain the nut while travelling, and protect the exposed threads from damage while loading/unloading.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-31-2014 21:57
Most shops I have been at have a unit that puts a twisted wire in the thread just past the nut so that it can't back off even if it vibrates loose. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-02-2014 01:39
Don't know if this will be of help at this point in time but it will explain my earlier post much better and hopefully help someone to answer the question of how to keep nuts from coming off during shipping.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Attachment: DSCF5442-Copy.JPG (33k)
Attachment: DSCF5443-Copy.JPG (32k)
Attachment: DSCF5444-Copy.JPG (49k)
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-02-2014 05:50
Excellent pictures and I think an excellent way of securing nuts!
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 07-02-2014 11:57
Over the years, if I don't want the nuts to back off on shop bolted items, after snug tightening them, I just take a center punch and foul the last thread or two at the end of the bolt.  One hit with a hammer and they can't back off.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-07-2014 11:10
Scott, We did that ay my previous employer...worked great for years
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 03-07-2013 12:58
jwright650

According to

Specification for Structural Joints Using High-Strength Bolts, December 31, 2009
RESEARCH COUNCIL ON STRUCTURAL CONNECTIONS

The “snug-tight” definition and references have been modified to make this
terminology less subjective in its application.

As Chris said I didn't know you didn't know John. :cool:

I guess they had to look hard to ding ya.

And You know they will try.

Marshall
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-11-2013 17:42
Adding to Marshall's reply, it is easy for them to claim they were properly tightened even though we could grab one and loosen it by hand because they had not gone over them enough and when tightening the last couple of fasteners the rest became loose.  Changing the wording is basically to help the inspector explain why he is not accepting the bolting without major arguments.  While snug tight inspection requirements are rather 'loose' in themselves, this allows for a more clear application.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-26-2014 16:13
The change from spud wrench to wrench makes the definition more generic. The spud wrench is not essential to ensure the nut is "tight" enough. So, why specify a spud wrench when an adjustable wrench will do?

Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-26-2014 16:18
I assumed that spud wrenches were generally all the same length,  so they mentioned it.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-26-2014 16:27
I take it you have never used an "old" Williams' wrench.

They were my first set of spuds. They were so long they beat the hell out of my ankles as I walked the iron.

I've even used some old hand forged spuds on one job in my early years. I swear, you could snap a 3/4 inch diameter square head bolt using those long wrenches!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-26-2014 17:55
.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-26-2014 20:00
That's the type of wrench used by an ironworker wannabe.

Al
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-26-2014 20:12
Hey,

That's a handy little fella
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-26-2014 23:27
AAhhh, a metric fits all spud wrench.  I carry one of those for doing inspections as I don't have to worry about having the right wrench.  But, with the new RCSC statement under inspections that they are tight enough not to come loose by hand we don't need to. 

They still say for installation to tighten to the ability of the ironworker (this little 140 lb guy can get them pretty tight) they now state the inspections portion differently. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-27-2014 10:31
I seem to be drawn into the world of torque verification, a very dark place, of which I have little knowledge,is a 'spud wrench' a podger with a adjustable wrench or spanner in the queens english on the end?
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-02-2014 06:29
Is your verification on specs requiring a certain amount of pressure?  For us something like 300 ft lbs? 

The various methods of installation include differing inspection activities.

I hate using anything other than snug tight.  Too much work... :lol: . 

I'll get a couple more pics to try to explain a couple of things.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-02-2014 16:13
Glyn,

First, I had to look up 'podger' wrenches.  To answer your question, yes, same thing.  Interesting combinations of podgers; adjustable like the one previously shown and included in one of my attachments here as well, sluggers (anvil type end for hitting with a hammer to get the desired torque), open end, box end, ratcheting box ends, etc.  Never knew there were so many styles available of 'spud' wrenches.

Second, took my own pic to make a point.  (Compare both pics to follow this)  Combination wrenches are designed with longer lengths as the applicable size for bolts get larger.  Reason, with the same amount of applied pressure you get the appropriate amount of torque applied to the bolt size requirements at hand.  So also are spud/podger wrenches.  They get longer as the size increases in order for the average iron worker to be able to get the proper amount of torque applied to the bolt specs in use without need of some form of cheater bar. 

So, as I already stated, I use one with an adjustable (commonly here in the states called a crescent wrench though that is a trade name for one of the most common) end so I don't have to carry several with me.  For inspections it is only needed to verify the nut is indeed snugged down sufficiently and if so desired, as John did, to tighten "OCCASIONAL"  loose nuts.  With the change in the wording for the proper inspections all we need do is twist by hand and if it doesn't come loose it is good enough.  This is based upon some research that was previously included in the Commentary of RCSC Bolting Specs and still is about tightness, hole tolerances, and several factors applicable to structural integrity.  I still carry a wrench incase I come upon the stray loose bolt/nut. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Attachment: DSCF5445-Copy.JPG - spud wrenches (40k)
Attachment: DSCF5446-Copy.JPG - combination wrenches (39k)
Attachment: boxpodger.jpg - box end podger/spud (3k)
Attachment: ratchetpodger.jpg - ratchet podger/spud (3k)
Attachment: sluggerpodgers.jpg - slugger podger/spud (4k)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-27-2014 16:57
Speaking of bolt inspections....on a job recently and was checking bolts in a particular sequence of the erection. Erector tells me his crew is finished with that sequence and I can check/verify the bolted condition. Within a few minutes of inspection I ran up on loose bolts. I tell the erection foreman, he tells me to not bother going any further that he will send a guy back over all of the bolts in that sequence and will let me know when it's done. I was there performing UT inspection on moments a few days later when he walks up and tells me that the sequence is ready again. I start back where I left off and within a few minutes I run up on more loose bolts. The erector was watching from the ground and tells me to come back down and not worry about the bolts that he is sending another guy back over those bolts again. Finally, I get back to the bolts and end up finding one bolt, so I tightened the dang thing myself...LOL
I'm going to have a talk with him about teaching his guys about tightening sequences/patterns so that when they get done running up bolts they won't have the first bolt end up being loose in the connection.
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 06-30-2014 18:33
It's those types of basic simple stuff that gets really frustrating.  I've done that myself, just tighten the dam thing so you can move on.
Good for you.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Processes / RCSC Snug Tight

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