Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / article about lack of welders
- - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-10-2013 01:13
http://www.jsonline.com/business/welding-job-fair-fails-to-spark-interest-lc9g955-202236561.html

Hell there is a good reason for it.  Wages that are still on par with a 1995 market.   Why do it when there are other ways to invest yourself that have a brighter future and prospect.   There are plenty of other avenues of skilled labor that pay on par or better then avg welder wages, so why deal with being burned, hazards, health risks etc.  Most companies in my area still offer the same kind of pay they did 15 years ago, and yes they all have revolving doors on the front of the building.  You can make a decent career out of it being self employed but slugging away in some factory hoping for advancement....if your good at it that is where they want you to stay.  I know this won't be a popular post but it is freaking true.  Some high end highly skilled specialty skills pay well no doubt, but average everyday wire slinging or other production type work is a joke as far as income.  Welding is a skill and in reality a talent...not everyone will excel at it.   As long as we are in general treated like a dime a dozen labor people will walk away from it.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-10-2013 03:54
Tommy,

First, the wages are worse than that.  Most companies in my area are paying the same wages that I was making over 30 years ago.  And those are not too different from the ones being paid just before the crash when people were 'doing good'.  But look how expenses have gone up.  How do any of these young people survive?  And then we wonder why so many are losing cars and houses.

Then, While I can agree with your overall stand, the biggest problem in the wage wars is truly based upon getting a decent education and developing the skills required to be a true craftsman not just a rod burner.  Way too many people THINK they are welders when they are no where close.  They can strike an arc and that is it.  Sure, you will always have some jobs that pay low because they only need rod burners and there will be those who can't get a true welding position making good money because they need more practice, education, and ultimately...CERTIFICATIONS.  As you said, that will not be a popular statement because there are many here who see that as just a money gimmick of AWS and it's CWI's.  But it is the only way to truly document skill. 

I will be one of the first to agree that there are many good welders out there who have never been certified.  And there are certified welders out there who we wonder how they ever got it.  But, overall it is the only gauge we have. 

If we were to train all of those who want to be welders and get them the added skills to be fitters, ironworkers, boilermakers, and into the skilled specialty positions then the factories would have to pay more as well to get even a modest work force.  Who wants to weld gidgets all day when they can weld space shuttles? 

No, it is not totally the fault of employers.  Blame those who think they can make skilled labor wages right out of high school without any proper training, education, skills, experience, etc.  But they got the high school sweetheart pregnant and have to have money to support a family and can't afford to go to school.  Not my problem.  They need to be taught to get their priorities straight. 

Anyway, thanks for posting and starting a conversation.  Just my two tin pennies worth.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By FixaLinc (****) Date 10-10-2013 05:14
Lots are coming to construction sites & oil field jobs and quitting to do something else because they have to and the pay isn't making ends meet for them.  Everything we buy has doubled, tripled or more in price the profit margin is choked to the limit or a loss.  I'm seeing a turn around last several months with lots of older welder machines & equipment coming on the market again when at first this turn up there was a shortage of equipment.  It's sure not because they are all making so much & buying new equipment now.  The wages & profit are not there anymore is why it's turning around again fast.  The work is there if want to travel like always but the pay is not !
Parent - By Think Positive (*) Date 10-10-2013 13:18
What about the impact of automation?  I know it is an old debate, but with a so-called "shortage" of skilled welders we might expect automation use to increase.
My current worries are focused on the pipeline industry.  In a 35 year welding career, so far, I have not welded any pipe yet.  However, I am well aware of some of the technology available from suppliers like CRC automatic welding systems.  Is automatic welding of pipelines on a large scale basis a real possibility?  Even if they could run flux core I would be worried about winds.  But, I know automatic pipe welders are used on lay barges though.

My experience with automated welding systems is that wages might go up - but more skills besides welding are often required.  An engineering intern once asked me if I knew how to weld.  I said - "Yes, with a robot".  The only manual welding qualification I have ever taken passed was a D1.1 for FVOH on HSLA plate.  But, I have qualified hundreds of procedures for robotic and automated tube welders.

At this point in my life I am considering taking a pipe welding class and cert just so I can throw it in the toolbox.  The schools that offer pipe welding training are prohibitively expensive and do not offer any exposure to automated pipe welding equipment.

And, finally, how do the 790 and Pipeliner's Unions feel about automation?  What is the impact on contractors?  The investment in orbital welding equipment might only be feasible for general contractors - not-sub contractors.  And, remember, I have never seen a pipeline in progress, let alone an orbital pipe welding process in operation.  Maybe there is no practical way to get away from SMAW for the bulk of pipe work.

Now I want to set up some Google alerts so that I can catch up on my reading on this topic.  I will begin with an alert for the Keystone project I suppose.
Parent - - By Think Positive (*) Date 10-10-2013 18:42
I am digging into the tar sands articles today.  Is this stuff about oil sands and oil slate really serious?

If so, what is involved in working cross border?  Can a US national work in Canada?

Keystone would be good if they can ever stop fighting about it and train enough qualified weldors.  But, I think gas and oil will have to remain expensive for it to pay off.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-10-2013 20:09 Edited 10-10-2013 20:47
The "BIG" pipeline will happen. Pieces of it are being laid down now even now as we type. There are political issues with muckety mucks squabbling like the little spoiled brats that politicians are. Rest assured MONEY/OIL will prevail in the end. Canada does not have the deep water (Super Tanker), low tide export shipping capability that the Gulf of Mexico in the US can provide by due process of natural oceanic topography? If they did, Why would they want to build a pipeline across the US when it is much shorter to go to Vancouver, BC.!!!??? No country with any smidgen of financial sense would relinquish all that revenue to someone else!
Last I heard, things got desperate enough up in "The Great White North" that US citizens can get in easier now. As long as you don't have a DUI or some other offense they find offensive. EVEN IF THAT BECOMES AN ISSUE... a few hundred dollars can get you a "Minister's Waiver" for anything short of armed robbery.
Be very careful and have a lawyer review your contract before signing up. TAXES can bite you from both borders if you do not seek professional advice. I've seen a couple of folks get raked over the tax table for not doing their research for Canada and Australia.
My take on going that far north is, if you have that much talent and a rig, you can make it here in the lower 48 without all the immigration hassles...
Just saying... I've done the research for my benefit.
Take it For what it's Worth.
Parent - - By Think Positive (*) Date 10-10-2013 20:17
I don't have a rig, and don't know how to pipe weld (yet).   I am only interested in possibly writing a blog post on this topic.

Thanks for the heads up on the taxes though.

My point is that IF tar sands goes forward, THEN the keystone project may bring many jobs to the US.

I spent the afternoon digging into the oil reserves data, and if the tar sands data is accurate, the 2 trillion barrels of oil should last about 65 years at the present world consumption rate.

But, what about all that strip mining and oily dirt and water it will leave behind?
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-10-2013 21:48
Think Positive
IF tar sands goes forward Have you any idea about the Tar Sands???? This aint NEW!
"But, what about all that strip mining and oily dirt and water it will leave behind?"
Dude, It's been going on for YEARS! Google earth that area around Ft McMurray.
The slimy, highly viscous Bitumen has to be mixed to flow through pipelines. This is a much cheaper alternative than putting in heaters every so many miles to get this from point "A" to point "B". No need to concern yourself with the heavy solids, that is made into coke and burned in power plants.
Another side to this not well known is that refineries are custom built to process certain types of crude.
Houston Texas has the facilities to:
A) Tweak an existing plant to process large quantities of a new product or,
B) build a new one to refine Massive quantities of a new product, and
C) Has the port facilities to ship this to any where the market demands.
D) Texas will get the right of way to let a profitable product into their state. It's what they have done for a hundred years. Texas knows where it's bread gets buttered.
Parent - By Think Positive (*) Date 10-11-2013 13:06
This one is a real brain teaser for me.

I know Canada has their own refineries.  Are they just unable to keep up with demand?  And, our own refineries are already at near full capacity as is.  Just look at what happens to our gas prices whenever just one refinery gets shut down by a hurricane or an accident.

I guess I will let the powers that be decide this one.

And, I will try to not bite the hands that feed me.
Parent - By Northweldor (***) Date 10-12-2013 13:37 Edited 10-12-2013 13:51
I agree that Keystone will happen, since the Canadian govt., like the US Govt., is largely controlled by Big Oil, but don't rely on the job figures provided by TransCanada, since a realistic figure is about 1/10 what they promise in temporary jobs, and an insignificant number of permanent jobs.

It has never been that hard for Americans to come to Canada, since about 11% of the citizens of Calgary are American citizens. Criminal convictions are a barrier, but no country wants to import another countries criminals!

The best way to come in and work as a weldor, is to find a job through a company that will then take the application through the Temporary Foreign Worker, or immigration program. But, other ways are explained here by the
Government.

http://www.workingincanada.gc.ca/content_pieces-eng.do?cid=38

Weldor qualifications and ways of becoming qualified are well explained here, with links to most of what you need to know.

http://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?aspAction=GetHTMLProfile&format=html&occPro_ID=71003108

The difference between temporary work and immigrating is explained here.

http://www.albertacanada.com/immigration/immigrating/coming-temporarily.aspx

Unions in Alberta to contact which might point you to jobs or contractors are below:

Boilermakers Union Local 146
Ironworkers Local 720
Millwrights Local 1460
Operating Engineers Local 955
Pipefitters and Plumbers Union Local 488
Sheet Metal Workers Union Local 8

(Beware of anyone who promises guaranteed jobs for a fee.) Also, if you have the money, you can come in as a visitor and job-hunt for up to 179 days, just as we can in the US.

Finally, pipeline expansions and reversals are already under way to deepwater ports on both coasts, with  Kinder-Morgan (all capacity sold -expansion on current right of way to Vancouver), and TransCanada ( reversal of present pipeline to carry dilbit to New Brunswick).
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-12-2013 23:54
Same issue years ago when I was a mechanic, excuse me, technician. High demand for technicians, crying about not having enough technicians. Pay typically sucked for top guys and if pay was good they raped you over insurance or something else. When I left I had well over $50,000 in tools! Probably pushing above the $60k mark. All for $16.50-17 per hour at my last official job. I've worked with guys that had been in for years and thought they were Einstein and could barely change a light bulb, let alone diagnose it.

Welders, like most have said there are guys who can and guys who can't but like the little train that could, "think they can". Wages, yeap, I've seen some crazy wages out there for welders and have had many calls offering me jobs to be a welder for some company and be offered less than as a mechanic. Must be because I don't have to spend a small fortune on tools. I have fixed many things out there as well for these companies after they hire a "welder" then find out that their $12 an hour didn't get them much. I don't see it changing anytime soon. It's a Chinese market, everything on the cheap. With plenty of non welders out there pulling the wool over their eyes and lots of companies with untrained eyes as to what a good weld actually looks like.

Oh well, nothing I can do about it and groaned, complained in the auto/diesel industry for years and even had an article published exploiting the reasons why young folks were not wanting to get into that industry. All for not in the end. Old enough and wise enough now not to really give a shyte anymore. One day I'll die and the whole world(besides my family) can kiss my wild Irish arse!
- By J.W. (*) Date 10-10-2013 10:09
I have found skilled welders are hard to find even in the deep south but you can find all the rod burners you want. I  have talk with a few QC managers with some of the bigger constrution companies who would love to have some skilled welders. There x-ray repair rates on most jobs is over 10% and there hearing about it from there customers.
The pay in the south louisiana has been pretty good for the last 10 years or so with the $per hr  doubling since I started welding in the late 1990's for combo welders.
I think the reason why most companies are crying is because there not willing to pay for skilled welders. Hire me a helper, teach them to weld (burn rods), don't have to pay them and then cry they can't find welders to keep wages low. Now your market is flooded with rod burners and now its biting them in the you know what!

Just my opinion.
J.W.
- - By lo-hi (**) Date 10-10-2013 11:56
Started in a fab shop in 79 for 8 50 an hour and in 83 passed a test on a paper mill job and went to 14 50 and 40 a day per diem. After 30 years of inflation people will still try to hire at a lesser wage than what I made back then. This seems to the one of the only trades that by the time you gain enough experience and knowledge of your trade, your to old and beat up to give a ****. But I still try to help anybody that wants learn, at least the basic skills will help in some way or another.
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 10-10-2013 13:18
I have always heard you get what you pay for and I believe that it the truth. I also heard that a combination welder is real hard to fine.

                                             M.G.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-10-2013 13:18
lo-hi,
Similar story here. When I moved to Wyoming in 1980, I was making $16.35 an hour with $35/pd or live in the man camp for free and no p/d.
That was 30 years ago when a fully decked out F150 4x4 was less than $10K.
Ffw. to 2010 (the last new construction power plant I was on), craft was making $25/hr with 60/pd.
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 10-10-2013 15:11
We posted for nine pipewelders about a year ago. Gas System owner. Union jobs. 37.80/hr to start. On-call pay. 12 paid holiday's including election day. Two weeks vacation to start. Work schedule = 4 11 hr/day 3 8hr days (double time Sunday) then three off....repeat cycle. New welding rigs provided-no out of pocket. Full bennies with a pension and 401K match. Our welders average more than 115K a year. Guess how many experienced welders applied....ZERO. Average age of the nine we hired was 22 y.o. Some had welding in high school, some at a small shop for 10 bones an hour. Put them through a 420 hr crash course on pipe welding. Careers are what you make of them.
Parent - - By lo-hi (**) Date 10-10-2013 15:52
I'm pretty good at tig and confident in my stick welding, but what would be the chance of showing up on a union job and getting hired if I never worked for a union? I've worked on jobs that were a mix of both union and non union, it wasn't a pleasant time. The area I live in is on the border of union to non union work so it happens from time to time and I wouldn't waste my time testing. I have nothing against union labor except the attitude towards other craftsmen try to make a living.
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 10-10-2013 16:46
I agree with you, especially your last sentence. That came into play on why we convinced the union to hire off the street rather than go through the typical upgrade process - for the first time ever. Trying to give someone who has paid their dues a better opportunity. It didn't quite work as planned unfortunately. On the flip side the new hires have been doing great. No repairs in the last two months on seven miles of high pressure. Eager to learn and hard workers. Great opportunity for these young men. I wish I had that opportunity when I was that age!
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 10-11-2013 13:56
Good to here that someone is helping the young guns get a chance to succeed. I too could have benefited from that type of opportunity when younger. Sometimes when a large project starts up in remote areas, the first challenge is finding skilled help. People in general will try to improve their quality of life if the opportunity is there. Its the training that gets them there. Even when the job is over the community still benefits to some degree.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-10-2013 21:02
Don't make the mistake of believing welding is a skilled trade. According to the US government, welding is a "tool of the trades". It has never been considered to be a skilled trade as per a decision made by the politicians back in the early 1900's.

That decision was by made by the government to ensure the welders could not organize and form their own trade union, demand higher wages, etc.

Al
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 10-11-2013 14:28
Damn well would that be nice to change a bit haha.

Teaching basic welding to students I see two ends to that spectrum. Because it is a junior college we get young and old to come in and practice and expand their skills.  I know jobs I had 10 years ago have only gone up maybe $4 an hour, but again this is california and they are raising the minimum wage to $10/h here soon enough.  The problem I see and again is with students and the younger crowd, is that they think that are worth good money right away.  Now I offered to sweep floors for free to get my foot in the door at more than one shop. I havent seen a soul with that mindset at my school.  I had a student tell me he needs a welding job... OK   and he needs to make $25 an hour... OK   only problem?  He isnt any good.  They think because they can laid welds in the flat position with a mig or do a t joint with SMAW they are welders now and if the welds are clean then heck they deserve that $ haha.  None of them have hit up a 6G pipe test.  Or they think because they have kids they should get paid more. 

I get worried about the lack of welders out there though. I get asked often if I know any welders from people who need them, and honestly its the same answer every time.   Good welders have great jobs, bad welders are at the hall playing cards. I think there needs to be a big push in the industry of the next generation of welders. 

my .02

Jordan
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 10-11-2013 14:49
Hello Jordan, the problem with training welders is that they need to learn humility along with their skills. You are certainly right when you speak of those in welding programs that "feel" good about their skills. They generally don't have a real understanding of what it takes to be referred to as a skilled professional.

For our school it really is a challenge to bring a student to the reality that they are only scraping the top of the trade iceberg, they can lay down some beads fairly proficiently, they have a basic understanding of multiple processes, they have a concept of job safety, they possibly get a bit of real world type job projects, but then they don't know how little they really know about the "real world". No matter how much you preach to them and give them examples, bring in people from the trades to speak to them, many always think that they have an upper hand on all of this and they won't need to go through the growing pains that are almost always a part of starting out.

My partner found an interesting quote the other day, it goes something like this: you can train people on new skills, but changing their personalities, that's another thing altogether. Essentially, my interpretation of this has to do with the work ethics that a lot of folks have now. They don't expect to have to accomodate work schedules(be there on time or not leave early as they please). Refrain from dabbling in drugs or alcohol to the extent that it would infringe on their work performance or get them fired due to drug and alcohol policies and a host of other things. They expect instant gratification for their labors, ie., what you essentially said about the individual who expected to immediately go out and be paid $25+/hr. We have plenty of them as well, they are the same ones who come back in and complain about the lack of work and at the same time tell you about the 3 or 4 jobs that they turned down because they didn't offer a high enough wage to suite them. Well done with the rant for the time being. Have a great day everyone and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-11-2013 14:52
It's back to the 10/80/10 rule. 10% of the population excels at what they do, 80% make a living doing no more than they have to to keep from getting fired, and 10% should find a different occupation.

Al
Parent - By Chris2626 (***) Date 10-11-2013 20:30
I had gotten out of welding for a year to find out I'm not a truck driver i'm a welder and have decided to go back into welding and go union. I have my own personal reasons for this and I won't get into it. I hadn't done a lot of stick welding mostly tig and mig on pipe. I was offered to take a 18 week pipe welding course through the UA it is absolutely FREE and am learning a ton about stick welding pipe, I've got 10 more weeks to go and hopefully i can pass my certs and go to work.

There was a guy who was testing welders for a hospital job at the local there and he was saying they have such a shortage of welders i said NO there is not a shortage of welders you mean there is a shortage and good qualified welders correct and he said YES. I have seen so many guys come in trying to pass these test and there pretty much ALL rod burners as you guys put it and i thank the man up stairs everyday that I decided to take on this 18 week course because i never thought I was a bad welder but never said i was a great one either. I'm learning a ton, the union sure does have great training, i may change my mind in December and i have no problem saying when i am wrong but for right now this was the best thing i ever did. I had tried testing twice to get in through the back door of this union and I just wasn't good enough in stick welding so this is why i decided to take on the 18 week course.

There are guys in my class I'd say we had 9 people total one quit and about four other guys won't be making it in the apprenticeship program there late and are just dead beats. Younger people today they want it yesterday they don't want to work for it.

So yes there is a shortage of certified/qualified welders but not a shortage of rod burners. I don't want to be a rod burner.

Chris
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 10-12-2013 15:16 Edited 10-12-2013 15:18
I see the level of young people who could make good welders with good eye hand coordination, decent math skills, good work ethic, etc. do not want to get into this industry. These same skills can be transferred to work that is less physically demanding, is safer and pay's much better.

Talk about the guys in the welding programs that seem to think they are worth $25 starting out but need 3-5 years to master their skills. The youngsters that have the proper skills can go into other areas and be qualified to land jobs paying that and more.

The welding trade has taken me to places I could never imagined and offered me opportunities. But I did not encourage my children to follow me in this profession. Nor when asked for advice for entering the welding profession, I tell them what I see as the truth.

That is, if you stay under the hood, you will get old fast, the companies you work for will not pay you decent, respect you nor see you have opportunities. Those things will be up to you. Your attitude will have to be "if you want loyalty, get a dog. Show me the money". That may be a bad attitude for someone in the 80%, but that is the attitude you have to have. You will have to make your own luck and someone will give you a break. And when that happens, you better be able to exploit that break as they do not happen often and few get a second opportunity.

Welding is for the 80%. If you are in the upper 10% why put up with all the crap, and if you are in the bottom 10% you are not going to stay in it long anyway.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-12-2013 15:43
It is an unfortunate situation that many managers fail appreciate the skill and knowledge required to be a good welder. It is beyond their comprehension to appreciate the skill required to be a good machinist, tool and die person, etc., but they especially fail to understand or appreciate what it takes to be a good welder/fabricator.

I don't know what the situation is currently, but at UTC, welders would bid on jobs as a forklift driver or wrench turner because those positions paid more than they could earn as a welder. All the while, the same managers were moaning they couldn't find skilled welders. 

As I've said before, education and intelligence do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 10-12-2013 15:52
I was told by a production manager 30 years ago that I was lucky that monkeys are afraid of sparks or we all would be out of a job. Not much has changed. I'm glad there still afraid of fire.
- - By Northweldor (***) Date 10-12-2013 18:50
BTW, if you decide to come to Canada, be prepared to work as hard as these guys, hard at in the early morning on a northern Alberta well-site!
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 10-12-2013 22:48
I would love to have the opportunity to work in Canada, not just for the money but for the adventure, I know that sounds corny but what can I say i like to travel and experience new things good or bad.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-12-2013 23:29
Ahh, it's not corny. I've see a lot of things this year playing, hmmm, well, traveling around living out of bags. Places I would never have thought about seeing or going to. Mississippi, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, East Tennessee, Missouri. Some are pretty cool, each having it's own unique quality and people. I've seen the Mississippi River far enough north where you could literally walk across it. Seen it down in Memphis big and wide. Drove west across the Mississippi river in the morning only to cross it 300 miles north going back east! Missed out on the Buffalo Gap trip as there was no welding but the guys said they could see Mt. Rushmore from their office. Some places though are pretty run of the mill and boring but the cool places make the bad a distant memory!
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 10-13-2013 00:40
I've heard the same you go far enough north you can walk across the Mississippi river.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 10-13-2013 07:18
Chris2626,
Nope not corny at all. One of the reason's I stayed in the welding trade was for the opportunities to travel (the myth of BIG money helped too). Being raised in a career military family I had lived in 3 countries, plus 4 states before the age of 10. I liked it then and to this day still enjoy going to different places, meeting new and different people, smelling the aromas... It IS an adventure, whether you are getting irradiated on a Nuke overhaul in Peru, Nebraska (kinda sux) rolling exchanger tubes in Watervliet, NY (Boring!) or fixing RPG holes on armored cars in Mazar E Shariff, Afghanistan with 122mm rockets zipping overhead (now that's entertainment!). I've raised my hood to watched grey whales migrating thru the Santa Barbara Channel off Point Arguello and skiers zipping down the slopes of Snow King Mtn, Wy.
Back on track to the OP. I do believe there is a shortage of skilled welders overall. But there are also those not willing to go to where the high paying work is, and quite comfortable near home, family and wish to pursue a more conventional lifestyle. AND, I sure would not fault anyone not wanting to freeze their toes off while "Rockin' the Bakken" in NoDak, Wyoming, or Northern Alberta Canada. This line of work and the opportunities it can provide certainly aint for everyone. I have tried to recruit some youngsters into the trade, but most if not already in the business shy away once they find out it is hard, hot, dirty work that will get you burnt on occasion.
I wish I could help to inspire more to enter the field. Sadly it seems many of us were kinda "born in to it" as it were.
My advice is to get out there and find yourself that "corny adventure". I think it's a Hoot!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-23-2013 18:30
Shawn,
'
I sent you a PM a week or so ago

Did you get it?
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-24-2013 00:55
Sorry, yeah I got it just have not had much time to look into everything. Working, working, come back to cabin, cook dinner, shower, talk with family then crashing out! Probably be another week on this job finishing up then getting back to Tennessee!! When I get back I'll research the areas and get with you. Thanks for the information!
- - By SCOTTN (***) Date 10-14-2013 16:35
To elaborate a bit on what Al has mentioned, I've had a lot of guys apply for welding jobs over the years, asking for big bucks, and telling me that they can weld anything. So, while they're filling out an application, I'll go out to the shop and tack two plates together to make a "T".  Then, I'll mess with the settings on the machine, the wire feeder, and the shielding gas, and turn everything off.  When a candidate finishes filling out his application, I'll take him to that machine, ask him to set it according to the WPS, make a 5/16" fillet weld on both sides of the plate, and show me how to check his welds with a fillet gage.  It never ceases to amaze me that of the guys who are telling me they can weld anything, 95% of them can't do much of anything I've asked them to do, which is very basic stuff.  Anyone can run a pass, but just because someone can run a pass does not make him/her a good welder.  To me, a good welder (1) understands and follows the WPS, which is basically a recipe for a good weld, (2) understands the do's and dont's of the applicable welding code, (3) understands the limitations of the process and the limitations of the welding position for which he/she is qualified, and (4) knows how to work safely.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 10-14-2013 22:09
SWORNISS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Howdy to my favorite semi psychotic welding comedian, I still swear you are somehow kin to Steven Wright.  I for one have been missing you around here, this place gets way to serious a lot of the time. 

I appreciate the posts made here, it is a valid and serious subject.  I would rather read the commentery, as most of my commentary would probably be negative in nature or a personal tirade that would not contribute to the real issue.
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 10-15-2013 11:39
You misspelled my user name, but that's ok.  If my user name was Brian and you misspelled it Brain; you'd be giving me a free compliment and I wouldn't even have to be smart to notice it.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-15-2013 14:12
Not everyone is cut out to be a skilled welder. As I've already mentioned, welding is not considered a skilled trade by the US Government. The intention was to prevent welders from unionizing and controlling the US economy.

Most construction trades include welding training as part of their apprenticeship program. The union trades do a pretty good job of providing their signatory contractors with skilled welders. Larger employers that have traditionally used apprenticeship programs to provided skilled workers have cut back in an effort to control expenses. Those money savings may have been good for the short term, but the lost of training programs is manifested as a labor pool that can not longer meet their need for highly skilled worked.

I have to say the majority of people employed as welders learn their skills on the job. Few welders, on the order of 10% to 15%,  have attended any formal welder training program. Many welders that excel at welding have honed their skills by working with multiple employers. The process of jumping from one company to another exposes the welder to different welding processes, different products, different codes, each requiring different levels of skill. This approach to welder training works to the benefit to the employer by keeping wages low. However, those employers that require highly skilled welders are at a disadvantage because the pool of skilled welders is small. Employers seem to be adverse to providing training to their welders for fear of losing them when they jump ship and migrate to employers that are willing to pay better wages. All too often, the jobs that pay higher wages are temporary in nature or far removed from the welder's home. The individual has to make a decision based on hard economics whether a move to a new location is justified by the higher wages. There are times when the lure of higher wages simply does not justify the cost of relocating or the temporary position with higher wages simply doe not make financial sense in the long term when all the costs are considered. One cannot fail to consider the financial impact of benefits such as health insurance, retirement, vacation, sick days, etc. Chasing the jobs with higher wages does not always translate into more money in the bank. 

Market forces will come into play at some point. Employers have to make a decision based on economics to either pay better wages or initiate training programs for their current employees. When economic times are unfavorable, wages and training suffer. When economic times improve and there is a greater demand for skilled workers and training opportunity improve. Employers will always look for the easiest, most cost effective means of filling the skills gaps in their organization. The fly in the ointment from the worker's viewpoint is the H1B program where the employer is allowed to bring in skilled workers from other countries. While I have not seen it, I have heard rumors of a couple of shipyards housing foreign workers on barges to fill the gap for low cost workers.

I have heard the lamentations of several employers regarding the difficulty of locating skilled workers. When I quiry them about the wages they are willing to pay, they are on the low end of the pay scale. When they bemoan the fact that their employee turnover rate is very high, the reason isn't that difficult to see, the wages are simply too low to retain the most desirable employees.

The bottom line is that the employers, both union and nonunion, have to pay a wage that is going to attract workers with the skill required. Those employers that refuse to pay a decent wage are always going to find it difficult to find workers with the skills and work ethic they find desirable. The people are out there if the wages are reasonable. What is a reasonable wage? It isn't what we earned 10, 20, or 30 years ago.

Several years ago I sat on an advisory board for one of the local vocational schools. One of the individuals on the same committee was bemoaning the fact that he could find the welders he needed. I made the comment that he probably was paying the same wages he paid years ago. He looked at me like I had pinched him. "What do you mean? I pay decent wages!"

I said, "I bet your paying your shop foreman the same wages you paid him 10 years ago and you are paying your new hires $10 to $12 an hour."

He said, "Yes, that's about right."

I said, "Most of my clients are paying around $15 to $20 and hour for a new hire and $25 to $28 per hour for a welder with several years of experience and can pass a qualification test."

He said, "I never thought of it, but the wages I am paying were considered to be pretty good when I opened my business. Maybe they are no longer in line with other companies."

There is a fine balance between wages and the supply of skilled workers. There is no easy answer to the ongoing problem of wages paid by the employer and the need to put food on the table faced by the workers. I do find it interesting that the profits of many large employers are at record highs, yet the pay earned by the average worker is stagnated and the number of unionized workers are at a record low. Sooner or later the tide will change. The question is whether the change will be in the near future or the distant future. All I can say is that people involved in outsourcing overseas tell me, "But they are getting better!"

"God bless globalization!" It is the mantra of the industrial conglomerate. Even Henry Ford recognized the need to pay his workers a decent rate so they could afford to buy the cars he was building.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 10-16-2013 02:33
Getting paid has generally not been a problem for me over these many years.  I made up my mind early to get paid top dollar because given a few months I could do just about any job in any office and the reciprocating office workers wouldn't be able to fit and weld pipe if you gave them twenty years.
- - By hvymax (**) Date 10-22-2013 17:29
The problem I see is they are not making it worth coming to work. They are offering $25 for a CWI and $15 for welders about a 100 miles from where I live. By the time I pay for gas and commuting time I am better off working at the local Lowes or something. To really work steady you have to be willing to travel which means uprooting/abandoning your family on a regular basis. I guess it is worth it to some. When I can make the same money and not have to burn the crap out of myself or kill myself on a job why should I?
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 10-22-2013 21:22
Not all jobs are in your backyard.......Traveling to work is part of life........Sucks but thats the way it is....... By the way what isle is the paint brushes in?????????
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 10-23-2013 20:53
I’ve been banned from Lowe's because every time I walk through the door I set off all the stud finders, so I started going to Home Depot.  Here’s a heads up for any of you guys who may be regular Home Depot customers.   Over the last month and a half I became a victim of a pretty clever scam while shopping there.  Don't be naive enough to think it couldn't happen to you or your friends.  Just be on the lookout for a couple of seriously good looking 21 year old girls wandering around in the parking lot.  They will come over to your car as you are unloading your stuff into the trunk and start wiping your windshield with a rag and Windex.  Wearing their extremely skimpy T shirts and Daisy Dukes, it’s impossible not to look.  When you thank them and offer them a tip, they say “No” and instead ask you for a ride to another Home Depot.  If you agree, they both jump in the back seat.  On the way, one of them will climb over into the front seat and start crawling all over you while the other one steals your wallet.  I had my wallet stolen September 4th, 9th, 10th, twice on the 15th,  twice on the 17th, twice on the 20th, & twice on the 24th.  Also, again on October 1st and the 4th, twice on the 5th, twice on the 12th, and twice on the 19th, and I plan on getting it stolen again, multiple times this upcoming weekend.  So please, tell your all friends to be careful.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-23-2013 21:12
LOL....^there^ is the guy whom we have been missing for a while. :smile:
Glad you're back Scott. :grin:
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 10-24-2013 00:02
I think part of the job is showing a company what you can bring to the table. They'll get complacent, of course, and that's why it's important to stop welding after a period (this will depend greatly) and let them know how you would like to continue if they can see fit to compensate you. Again, spelling out clearly what you offer is key. If you can do things right the first time, you need to say it to their face. The guy replacing you can't do it as well as you and that's a fact, right? There's always some knucklehead making you look good and that's even true if you're at home. The idea that their hands are tied is a facade.
Parent - By CWI7611 (**) Date 10-25-2013 19:52
What town do you live in. Soon as I can drive again, I'm coming over.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / article about lack of welders

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill