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- - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-18-2014 01:40
My good friend Tommy King AKA Tommyjoking and another friend Jeff decided to come up from Texas and south Oklahoma up to my shop in North O.K.  To get the basics and techniques of how to pass a 12" Butt  and 12 on 12" Branch test. Which is an average test requirement for pipeline work when the money counts.  Now most of you regulars don't know  I am building a new facility from the ground up and starting an inspection company that test welders for different companies and also starting a pipeline specific school that teaches welders like Jeff and Tommy that are proficient rig welders in uphill work that are looking to break out in the pipeline world.  We spent a day setting up the machines for pipeline work (OVC'S) and working on butt welds.  How it should be prepared, fit up, and downhill technique. Day two was spent on the branch connection laying it out the old school way, fit up, and downhill welding skill.

I don't have any pictures of the first day as I was knee deep under the hood showing them how to carry metal and heat. But I did manage to get the second day working on the branch.   Thanks to Tommy and Jeff for being my guinea pigs.  Enjoy the fun!
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-18-2014 01:47
We finally get to put some faces with the names.

That shed looks like it will be too small there Hillbilly.  Even with some shelves.  Lots of stuff laying around.  Good luck.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-18-2014 02:03 Edited 01-18-2014 02:35
This is my old shop AKA the junk yard new shop is being built as we speak. You can see the footings in the last picture.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-18-2014 02:38
Looks like they got in some good practice there.

So, how much larger is the new shed going to be?

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-18-2014 03:37
50 by 50 for now.  I will be able to test 15 welders at a time. I have the option later to build bigger if I see this is a profitable deal.  But as a 50 by 50 with all the Miller XMT machinery and top of the line hypertherm and bevelers and two stage Quincy air compressor.  It's all paid for in cash. I will see how it goes.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-18-2014 04:35
Keep us updated with pics.  Sounds like an interesting setup.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-18-2014 05:10
Ha  boy I drink too much beer my butt is almost as wide as my machine!!  :grin:

Just like every time Stan and I had a great time and it was a good excuse to come up for a visit.  The whole of the downhand world is a foreign concept to me basically my entire welding career.  I like the way you tailored your advice according to what you saw each of us do, Jeff and Myself have widely differing experience.   Critiquing from you was very straightforward and to the point without being condescending and coming off like an azzhole, unlike many would be mentors I have met....that made focusing on improvements so much easier.  You were professional and did not let being friends with me intervene in what we were there to accomplish.  You also laid to rest about 70% of advice and technique that had been given to me previously on this subject.  What we did worked well and helped me tremendously on something I had been fighting on my own....being hands on with it all was invaluable to me.  I got a lot of confidence from it!   I really liked meeting Jim and I really enjoyed our discussions about fitting and welding in general, that man is a great resource.  I believe firmly yall got a good handle on this idea and I know there are plenty of guys like myself as well as less experienced folks that would enjoy and benefit from the opportunity to do this.  It sure is nice not only having a died in the wool pair of pipeliners teaching you but the addition of input from the inspection side really sheds a lot of light.

In all honesty, I just want to thank you for the opportunity because it really helped me a lot and opened some new doors.

I will come back and take the tour of the new facilities when they are done and if ya need a hand hanging the iron just give me a shout brother!

p.s. if ya just want to go do some fishing we can do that too eh?
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-18-2014 05:47
Tommy

  You have been on my boat last year.   I will take you fishing anytime but next time we go out I am gonna get you on a on a set of skis lol
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-18-2014 11:05
That's pretty cool!! Looks warm there!! Can I come!! LOL!!!

Good luck Tommy!!
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-18-2014 15:23
Shawn

    If your still in Kansas your not that far away. Stop by anytime.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 01-19-2014 12:43
Actually in middle Indiana right now, stones clanking together like two frozen bowling balls!!! Can't figure out their scheduling, north in winter and south in the summer. Think the project managers are confused!! I get out that way I'll be giving you a call though to meet you!
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-20-2014 02:45
NO set OF skis STAN....but if we got a slalom ski handy...you can drag my fat butt up on that.  I know weird but that is the only water ski my tired old knees will put up with for a day of fun.  Yes you may take pics but I shall charge a premium on royalties therof.  LOL
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 01-18-2014 18:50
Good luck on your endeavor ,Stan ........ I know I still have trouble with that "API 1104" test (although once on the job I don't have a problem with the real welding) Been to Lincoln for a few refreshers.....Don't think it's the same, comparing the input/guidance of an instructor compared to a guy that's  "been there, done that" and has a few years under his belt....Plenty of nuances/ details and tricks somebody with time served can pass on to others....... I think this could be a profitable and good service to the trade......Once again good luck Stan.....
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-18-2014 20:55
I just don't or haven't heard of anybody out there that is giving hands on help like this that has been on the firing line or a bead hand for that matter.  Jeff asked me how long does it take me to do one 12"  butt test and I told him including cutting and prep about two hours.  He didn't believe me until I showed him the time saving short cut's I use when I am in the test booth.  You know as well as I do Bob that a 12 on 12 can kick your butt if you never have done one.  Eventually I want to teach even the more complicated tests that some of these gas companies use.  Like how to set up an inservice sleeve test and how to weld temper and non temper beads while water is running through it.  Or the infamous Enbridge inservice test which is the inverted tee putting the bead in with 7018 while water is running through it.  Most guys here have probably never even seen or heard of  that test let alone how to properly pull one off.
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 01-18-2014 21:47
Like I said Stan......You will have a nice niche "market" where there will be a demand for somebody who actually has/ had his boots on the ground.......
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 01-21-2014 00:07
my choice would be lincoln, thermal dynamics and CP air
but nice stuff, and way less cost
so good choice and best wishes
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-21-2014 01:20
I looked at the invertecs and welded with them and I wasn't all that impressed and I love most of Lincoln stuff. (I have many a Lincoln welders)  But those Miller XMT's are pretty good for a wide range of stuff.  I have run the Thermal Dynamics which are very good but none compare the Hypertherm stuff.  Central Penumatics and Ingersolrand  I looked at and neither one offered a two stage compressor in the 2.5k cash range that the can be rebuilt.  I have never used a Quincy but I do see them a lot in the heavy industrial places we will see how it works out.
Parent - - By lo-hi (**) Date 01-20-2014 14:35
I was wondering how cold it gets where your at. My shop looks similar to yours ,just not as organized. Its 30 by 40 and if I clean for an hour my truck just fits. It was a second hand butler building, so just red iron and tin for the first year. I built a big wood stove and thought I could tough it out, but melted all the snow on the outside and it ran inside and froze. We have a second shop in the works and insulation will be a priority. The old bones cant take the cold like they used to. Good luck to you and hope everything works out for the best.
Parent - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-21-2014 00:42
Days like today were in the 60's and it will freeze tonite. We have a wood stove in the old shop but all it can do is knock the chill out and the old shop is uninsulated.  New shop will be insulated and a commercial style heater. I hope that will be the ticket. I can get down to sub zero temps for a day or two here.
Parent - - By Chris2626 (***) Date 01-18-2014 21:04
Thanks for sharing the pictures I have had a chance the last few days at work to do some downhand welding on some stuff that didn't need to be x-rayed and it is different. I find i have to work the rod more to get it to lay down and tie into the side well for the hot/fill pass but this is just trial and error for me. The machine i was using was a Vantage 300 and seemed to weld good.
Parent - - By mcostello (**) Date 01-19-2014 02:15
Sombody's got to ask, so here it is, just how DO You put a tee in with water running through it. What pressure and flow.
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-19-2014 04:45 Edited 01-19-2014 06:39
I am just curious if some one will answer this????? Before I do.
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-19-2014 19:18
The pressure is irrelevant. It is the flow. Even for the test the low flow used carries the heat away from the carrier pipe. You have to know your machine and where it welds with the LH rod. On a line with 12 inch line with 12-14 BBL per minute flow, you need to be in the sphincter pucker range on the machine. As the flow increases, you have to know where to set the machine. That is why the pipeline companies set the max press and flow rate when doing on-line repair welding.
Even on 0.156 wall the flow keeps the pipe cool.
If you are doing the garden hose set up, run some bead then increase the flow and see how much difference the increased flow makes. Another thing for chits and giggles, get the flow going then see how high you have to be on the machine to blow a hole in the pipe. It will surprise you.

Attention: On Soap Box
I have never seen the Enbridge test with a inverted tee but I understand the concept. I do not agree with using it as a way to qualify welders as API 1104 does not address that method of welder testing as a approved welder qualification method. Read 1104 B3.
However the members of 1104 decided to use should instead of shall and right on cue one pipeline company decides to come up with a useless test with the idea to be sure only a small percent of the capable welders can pass it. The API 1104 multiple and the sleeve test in API 1104 B-2 is more than adequate to be sure the welders can deposit sound weld metal. Instead, a company uses the should to come up with this. Hopefully this will not become a standard in the industry. Already the $$$ and time expended for pipeline welder testing is getting absurd. But with it comes to some pipeline companies, you cant fix stupid.
Off Soap Box
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-19-2014 19:41
I agree with you one hundred percent. That Enbridge test is useless IMHO.  Both Keystone and Enbridge are based out of Canada use some funky ways to qualify welders.  I bet I tested 100 or better welders last year for Keystone to get 10.  Not because they weren't seasoned welders either.  But what they wanted the welders to perform on test day.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-25-2014 01:57
Stan,

I need some clarification here based on a couple of things I am reading.

When I say: HOT TAP I think I am meaning something different than some of you are referring to.  Now, they may both apply, but are we looking at two different things?

Example: my work, over 25 years ago, was always on closed systems.  I welded the weld-o-let or sleeve on that had a stub with a flange.  The tapping contractor would attach a valve, his hydraulic powered, sealed, large roto-broach style tool and drill out the coupon.  When he pulled it out most shavings and always the coupon would come out in the bit.  He then closed the valve then removed his drill.  All done with no shutting down of systems and yet I had no gas or water, depending upon the application, to deal with unless the pipe was bad or I just messed up.  We did this on jet fuel line, natural gas, water, wastewater, and a few other applications.

Some of the things you guys are saying sounds different.  Could someone please expand upon what is actually being done for those of us who don't know what you are talking about?  Are you actually penetrating the line first, and then welding a tee in?  With gas there?  That is a big difference from any of the "Hot Taps" I ever did.  I did do some that were shut down for other reasons so we cut the hole in first, but I had no product in those instances.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 01-26-2014 01:40
I have the same question.....hot tap= weldolet/threaded pre machined fitting welded on live line then the hole got punched (mechanically) and then a threaded tie in connection made.   Torching on live lines + welding ....splain this please.
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-26-2014 04:05 Edited 01-26-2014 04:12
Brent,

  You are right and that is the same hot tap and the same thing we do here in the pipepline field. Now what we may do different is a bypass or a hot tie inn.  A bypass we do a hot tap and a valve and a tee upstream and downstream of the inservice line to be cut out. From there we will run line from the upstream tee to the downstream tee so product still flows while we work on the "dead leg" ....   A hot tie inn is a no flow line with volatile  product still in it but no pressure which we put a vacuum on the line and cold cut it and burn off the gas  either at the vacuum or the weld and maybe both.

I looked for some youtube stuff that would explain it better. I know either CRC Evans has one or Williams Pipeline has a good rehab video.
Parent - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-26-2014 05:15 Edited 01-26-2014 05:19
I think maybe I confused you by the inservice tee test? For Enbridge?  That test has nothing to do with hot taps of the such.

I hope that may explain the two
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-26-2014 13:26
Okay, on down the thread  here WeldinFool makes some comments about tie ins that sound rather different or strange compared to what I have described.  What is he referring to?

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 01-26-2014 23:28
A hot tap is made on a operating line. The fittings are welded on the carrier pipe while the line is in operation (hot). A valve is attached to the fitting and a tapping machine is attached to the valve. In tapping I am not referring to putting threads on anything. The machine drills a coupon that is slightly smaller than the fitting pipe. The coupon is retracted and the valve is closed. The carrier pipe now has a hole in it controlled by a valve.
Here is TD Williamson
http://www.tdwilliamson.com/en/Services/HotTapping/Onshore/Pages/home.aspx
Drawing. Your tax dollars at work
http://www.epa.gov/gasstar/documents/ll_hottaps.pdf
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 01-23-2014 14:01
I agree kahuna. It's a solid six or eight hours with layout, cutting, prepping, fitting, and then welding butt and branch tests. It costs about 400 bucks when it's said and done. Whatever happened to the 6g??
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 01-24-2014 18:26
What surprised me WAS this fact about "Flow". Temperature is almost irrelevant. Flowing steam, city water main and 600° crude oil appear to have little effect on the penetration when hot Tapping.
When I tied into the city water main, the line boss asked me "Have you ever done any hot tapping before"... I chortled...
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-26-2014 04:21
John what is your feeling about flow?  What I mean from that is there is a lot of differening opinions of that and the engineers sign off the work before work is performed?
Parent - By swsweld (****) Date 02-15-2014 22:27
Hillbilly delux,
Some of the requirements for In-Service work, Hot Taps, Sleeves, where I currently work are very extensive. Before any hot work is done they perform MT and UT on the entire area to be tapped or sleeved. If it is acceptable (surface and volumetric) we perform a "Heat Loss" operation. We obtain the flow rate and pressure of the line and some other information and we heat (rose bud) the pipe up to approx. 325C then we record how long it takes it to cool from 250C to 100C. If it is over 40 seconds, no other action is required. If under 40 seconds, we take metal shavings for engineering evaluation based on the CE of the metal. If it is under 10 seconds, no welding can take place. We may be required to perform temper beads before the welding can take place or other engineering requirements also. The Flow Rates, pressure and temp. will be checked again on the day of the actual welding along with another "Heat Loss" operation. If everything is acceptable, we can perform the welds, if not, we may request the Operators to lower the flow rates in half. Or, they might be able to adjust the ratio of the medium in the pipes to get the heat loss. If that doesn't work we stop work and go back to engineering for direction.

The reason for all of this is the concern that too much flow will cause rapid cooling and the welds will be susceptible to cracking. There are other requirements concerning pressure and flow rates for the Hot Tap but thats another story.

You are right about the enormous amount of prework info and activities, engineering and otherwise but with good reason, pretty serious stuff we are dealing with.

Good luck with you business venture. Looks like it will be a success to me.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-19-2014 05:42
That question, along with Hillbilly's answer, depends upon a couple of things:  Are we talking about water running through the mainline as would be the case when doing a hot tap?  Or is there actually water pouring out of the area where the T is going because it can't be shut all the way down for some reason? 

Now,  I have repaired leaking pipes with some pretty good sized holes in them while the water was still running.  And I have put different types of sleeves and T's on for hot taps while water was quenching the work on some pretty good sized water lines (not to mention jet fuel lines, gas lines, etc). 

But, I have never actually welded a T on with the hole already cut and a significant volume of water coming out of it.  I was doing re-work in a manufacturing facility where the valves would not totally shut off the water and I had to do a tie in that got rather wet the hole time.  But after bridging the bottom so it would flow across the rest of it was easy to keep dry and weld normally as it didn't have full flow.  We actually bought a loaf of bread and shoved back up the pipe that stopped the water long enough to weld the bottom without much interference.  By the time the water started flowing past the bread I had enough weld there that it didn't bother me while I finished.

Having said that, it sounds like Hillbilly still has a lot of experience on me that many could benefit from in their daily work loads.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-19-2014 07:22
Brent by your statements and your age and your experience please enlighten us. I am sure  your inspection practices of structural work and stuffing loafs of bread up wet hollow holes is a recommended practice for pipeline. By your dry humor I can hardly see your expertise in soaking loafs of bread in water. I am confused?  If I am wrong please provide the supporting documents. 

That being said I am sure hoping for you to announce it on here on how you would properly set  up an inservice test like that?  If your not sure I can tell you that you wont find it anywhere in D1.1 and if your curious you can stop by my junk yard shop and I will show you that it's way different than checking anchor bolts and blue prints. 

When the day comes for you my friend when you don't have to charge a 4hr min. (I get a 10hr min)  Call me.... I "might" be able to use your expertise.

Maybe you can provide a picture or two of this loaf of wet bread work and lose the attitude.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-19-2014 14:33
Hey, Back in the early 80's there was not much available to me for guidance in the form of codes.  Not that there were no codes, but there were no codes available by internet.  We were on a job that wasn't being looked at by any kind of inspector.  It was in the middle of the night and was what was available to us.  It was on a private system supporting their operation.  I believe it was not even on public water service.  It was a tie in to totally reroute the water for the process through a new building.  I was very young in my welding experience and just wanted to stop the water long enough to get weld across the area where it would be wanting to flow and disturb my weld.  There was not enough volume to come up the sides of the pipe, we had left it open at the other end so it would just keep flowing without filling the pipe.  Part of the new system had a new valve in it.  Once the welding was done there we were able to shut it down with the new valve to continue work on up the line.  The bread was easily flushed out once the tie in was complete.  And old white bread would not have been much of a problem anyway.

Lots got done back then that I would not even consider today from experience and knowledge.  Especially code knowledge. 

Now, I think I could learn quite a few things from you.  I am not trying to be defensive of my previous work.  There were many things I did within the first 10 years of my career that I have discovered could have been done far better.  And I'm sure others, such as yourself, have even more experience in those areas now as I have gone to almost completely the structural side and more recently, the inspections. 

But there can be many ways to get a job done that may seem strange to some but bring things into line with welder abilities and still comply to the codes applicable to the situation.  And, yes, once it was all finished it did get testing done.  Bread flushed out, VT, several (but not all) joints RT, and then pressure on the whole system.  And the Id of the pipe was visible, 12" pipe that we could look in and see my tie in.

Still not the way you would do it.  Not the way I would do it today.  But, I am not ashamed of it.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 01-19-2014 22:07
Most of the time when working in older factories none of the valves shut completely off. That is when the worst part of the fit will be on the bottom. It takes some skill to seal up the bottom with boiling hot water leaking on you. If it was real bad I would  weld a thread-o-let upstream, and then just valve it off later. Ether way its just not fun.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-19-2014 22:26
Hillbilly,

Just noticed something: "Maybe you can provide a picture or two of this loaf of wet bread work and lose the attitude."

There was no attitude in my post.  I was simply making a statement.  I was not critical of you or your teaching, facility, experience, none of it.

Now, if I somehow in this feeble context of forum communication exuded some form of attitude, I'm sorry.  It was definitely not intended.  And I no where implied there was code methodology in the weld in question.  At the same time, it accomplished the goal, a satisfactory weld that got the customer what he wanted.  And, this was back in the early 80's.  I doubt if I had any pics and if I did they would be old 135's in a shoe box somewhere. 

Also, I never called your shop a junk yard.  I said it was crowded with lots of unpacking to do.  Then you informed me that that was not the new shop. 

I don't know what went wrong here, I was positive and complimentary all the way through.  I just asked a couple of questions in response to another poster because I wasn't sure what you meant by the post ahead of his with running water and then I stated a personal experience that did include running water. 

The 70's and 80's were very transformational in much of welding.  Technology was changing rapidly.  Research was adding new information to the trade.  Codes were in constant flux and limbo being altered to meet all the new developments.  Then came Northridge.  Things really changed from that point.  Not to mention the computer age and the internet that allows forums like this for the exchange of knowledge. 

Again, not sure what I said to offend you.  That was not intended anywhere.  Honest.  I think I could learn from you.   And, I doubt that you could use any of my expertise because you don't think much of it.  That's fine.  Though I hope this won't prevent me from stopping by on my way through to IN sometime while going to see the grandkids so we can meet and you can show me your operation. 

Oh, in AZ, many of the inspection companies have gone to no minimums or 2 hr minimums.  What a joke.  They almost always charge at least 4 hours.  They also add many things to the bill to make up the difference.  The economy is changing but the recession really hit hard trying to keep busy.  Having the welding shop saved us through it all, but we closed it as our current contracts keep us too busy inspecting so we can't meet the needs of customers for welding jobs.  Lots of small, periodic inspections jobs going on around here, no way would they use someone charging 10 hour minimums.  I understand how guys like you and Al can make those kinds of dollars/hours.  Here, it is different.  At least for the moment I am on another larger job with continuous inspections.  Should last a couple of years.  Don't have to worry about how many hours to charge a dozen different customers.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-20-2014 04:01
Brent, 

It is hard sometimes to read emotion between the text lines and please forgive me if I miss read your many postings on this thread. Just like any of us including me always can learn from others  that's why we come here and I was just showing some willing guys that are hungry to learn a new technique which I was familiar with. (On my own time and theirs ) I figured I would share it here not to be criticized on the way my shop looks or to talk about how big my new shop is but to show how well these guys performed with a couple of days of one on one work. Also to show those other guys here a test that most will never have to take and the ones that are toying with breaking out in the PL world some real world pictures of what it should look like.

If your posts was well intentioned please disregard.

I have been here at the online forum Brent for a long time and If you haven't taken the time my name is Stan Smith.  I know you in an online sense because I follow your post and what you have posted for years and have taken the time to read what you have voluntarily submitted.  We had this same confrontation maybe a year ago about the CPWI deal. That's neither here nor there.  I am just hoping to keep this thread clean and give some advice to guys that want to learn something new.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-20-2014 04:31
Stan,

I know your name, though, often it is easy to forget the names of those who do not use it regularly in their handle or sign off with it in their posts. 

Again, there was nothing inferred by me as negative about the set up, the teaching, etc.  I first said it looked like the shop was going to be small because your pic showed so much stuff in it.  That was not to even suggest it was a junk yard or small, just small for everything you had and you had mentioned teaching and inspecting from it.  It was only a comment and observation based upon bad conjecture on my part.  But not negative.  And I only asked the size of the new shop for personal interest.  When we shut down the shop facility we moved everything to a SMALL shop on my home property.  You talk about small, crowded, and something to laugh at.  Now you would get a kick out of that.  I wanted to know what you were building because we have talked about putting up another building here at home and I was wondering what you had decided on compared to what you already had.

Nothing else stated in my posts was intended to be negative either and I was frankly a little hurt that you took it that way regardless of any past history.  I have learned things about you as well especially in the past year.  We have different niches, but one similar interest...welding and helping others in their development of skills and knowledge in that profession.  We are both old enough to be passing on our learned knowledge before it vanishes and has to be learned by hard knocks instead of gentle teaching.

I have not gone back to review that particular thread, I let it lie.  I do know I have learned a lot recently about that program and think it is very worthwhile for those in that particular venue, such as yourself.  I don't remember what I said or what my thoughts were at the time but would ask you to forgive me if I said something out of place and took a position that was not appropriate.  I have a feeling, as here, it was more of a miscommunication but I honestly don't remember.  I have felt that anything that helps us further ourselves is a good thing.  Well, no need to go on until I take a moment to look it up.  I would hope that any disagreement was rather it was better than the CWI.  Regardless of anything said then, they both have their place in the inspections trade.  Same with the LA City Deputy Inspector Exam I just took.  In some ways worthless, but required by them and definitely different than my AWS/CWI, my ICC Welding and Bolting, or my ASNT VT Level II.  They all have their place.  And taking the actual tests always ends up better than doing any available reciprocity.  They are enough different that you need to go the whole procedure in my opinion.  Same with the CPWI.  One needs to learn their whole procedure to apply it where it is needed.  That does not lower any of them.  It is one of those things that you can't really compare one to the other.  There is a reason they exist and have their own niche.

Then I went on anyway.  I'll end for now.  As to this particular issue, even though I think it was a total misunderstanding of my intentions, I still ask your forgiveness for having led you to believe I was being critical in any way.  It was not my intention.  You asked, I do forgive you.  I enjoyed the pics, both sets (here and on John's thread). 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-20-2014 04:39
PS,

I usually call most of the guys by their handle unless they use their name a lot signing off.  Many don't even have it listed when they signed up so you can't find it when trying to get more personal.  And we do have a lot of members on this forum.  Hard to remember everyone.  It is not a negative intention.  But, thank you for introducing yourself.  Even though I had seen others use your name, I feel more free to use it since you introduced yourself with it.

Hope to meet face to face sometime.  As I do JT and so many others here.  Just because we have differences doesn't mean we can't enjoy some small talk and exchange ideas.  We all have many things in common, one of the worst is our passion about the area of welding we are surrounded with.  It makes us defensive when it shouldn't. 

Have a Great Day Stan,  Brent
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 01-21-2014 00:11
Stan,
I agree
had a run in or two with Brent
such is life and life online:wink:
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 01-19-2014 23:55
Wow!
Parent - - By WeldinFool (**) Date 01-20-2014 19:42
Wow, does that bring back memories!
Back in 2004 I was working in a pipe fabrication shop with my dad, fabbing spools for a compressor station to be added to an existing natural gas pipeline here in Utah. The contractor that was installing the compressor station approached the owners of the fab shop and asked if we had any welders that could possibly come out to the jobsite and help with installation. We said sure, we can handle that! The customer, Questar Gas, sent their welding inspector to our shop to administer their version of the welding test, and it was exactly what you guys are doing in these pictures. We had to cut a 12" on 12" saddle, fit it up and weld it out downhill, using no grinders, and with a time limit of 2 hours. He then performed root and face bends, and then for good measure he performed 2 nick breaks. Of the five guys in our shop that tested, I was the only one that passed. In my younger days I had been lucky enough to work for a few years with an old timer pipeline hand, and he had shown me all the "tricks of the trade". You guys are exactly right, the best uphill pipe or structural welder in the land will have a hard time with downhill welding unless he is shown how to do it.
Rest of the story, I hit the jobsite just in time to get put on the crew that was doing the tie-in welds on the existing, live, natural gas pipeline. I thought those guys were nuts when they explained what we were about to do! I actually got to pop the first hole into the line. My reflexes almost wouldn't let me squeeze the torch to cut into it, every ounce of common sense I own was screaming "you fool, that's a live gas line you're about to cut into with a torch!!" I then team welded the tie-in pieces, blue fire coming out of the gap as we sowed it up, it was something I will never forget.
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-23-2014 05:12
Bradley,

  I am not sure I would have had the nerve if you hot punched the hole and I am most sure you cold drilled it and yes if you have never done it.   It will make your donkey hole pucker.   Blue or yellow fire is a good thing and No Fire is the time to run out of the hole if you haven't sowed it up.  I am just curious is to why we send welders out there that have no official training on some of this stuff. Hot tie inns and welding on 600 psi .125 wall inservice sleeves or to cut inservice  gas lines needs a  class in my opinion.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 01-23-2014 05:49
"I am just curious is to why we send welders out there that have no official training on some of this stuff."

Amen.  It would not be that difficult to set up.  Maybe you should add that to your classes.  Seriously Stan.  Putting people out there with that kind of background.  Some of these foremen are nuts to do on the job training of newbies when there is that much at stake. 

Your insurance company may not like you though.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-23-2014 06:36
Brent,

Amen and that is eventually where I will be heading there with that. I have to get my business started first. But I am already thinking of starting a simulation of a bell hole dug in the ground and a simulated live gas line  in the ground and to give classes of how to properly make a hot tap or a cut out  or a sleeve or a hot tie inn.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 01-23-2014 12:30

>I am already thinking of starting a simulation of a bell hole dug in the ground and a simulated live gas line  in the ground and to give classes of how to properly make a hot tap or a cut out  or a sleeve or a hot tie inn.


Stan that would be an awsome experience for someone starting out. I can imagine having the hole dug with the pipe in ground giving the welder the same obstacles he/she would run into out in the field doing that work. Don't forget to fill the bottom of the hole with water and stir up the mud really good so they need a pallet or something to lay on to get underneath that pipe...LOL

Keep thinking outside of the box buddy..it's good for our trades. :wink:
Parent - - By hillbilly delux (***) Date 01-23-2014 20:48
LOL  and maybe a bellhole where you have to stand on top of your head while in mud and water all while trying to a make a sound weld.
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