disgust with general trade rates

By JeremyW83 (***)

Date 02-26-2014 00:01

I know a company that has shop hands only making 23 top dollar welding all of those and more.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 02-28-2014 22:18

Jeremy not to say whether those guys are over or underpaid (under). But there is a pretty wide gap between going home every night and working some job in BFE in the field and living out of a hotel or trailer...I doubt any of those shop hands would be willing to throw it in the wind for another 6-7 an hour.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 02-28-2014 22:55

And while I in no way am saying I approve of those rates, I think good quality journeyman with quals in multiple processes in this current economy are worth much more...$23/hr is not bad compared to the multitudes that are making $10-15/hr. The latter class is the ones that are killing all of us.

I have said it before, I made that kind of money, $20 ish, back in the early 80's. And we expect people to raise a family, pay higher cost of living across the board (insurances, cars, fuel, clothes, medical, housing, utilities, etc) on minimum wage up to $15/hr. Not even if both spouses work will it work out good for them. Even $23 is not good, but it is considerably better than lower numbers.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 02-26-2014 02:28

TommyJ ........In the same boat.......No jobs in my shop, had to lay EVERYBODY off........Looking for a job to run my rig on personally(pipe).......and at the same time look for/ bid jobs to get my shop back on line........The guys that I had working for me are calling/ texting me about their job searches.......They are telling me the same thing, to get what they were making they have to be top hands at doing EVERYTHING ........ Not just misc./ structural steel , aluminum, stainless welding , but pipe welding out of position and exotics, etc........I've started looking at single hand jobs also.....saw a job in Panama City , FL. welding structural for $10.50 hr......WTF......sad, very sad......

By Tyrone

Date 02-27-2014 12:07

Hey Tommy,
It's not only general trades. With the global market, everyones trying to undercut each other in all aspects of manufactured products. It doesn't look to get any better in the future...
Tyrone

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-02-2014 01:13

So true...sad but true.

Another aspect, whatever I agree to be recompensed for my time at labor for an employer, he deserves my best for that pay. It does not matter what I may 'think' I am worth. It I agreed to work for $15 per hour, it is not for me to say 'I am not being paid to do that'. Yes, I am, the employer hired me with all my skills, talents, experience, knowledge, and is to be given my all.

That can change if you have an actual job/work contract with a job description. If so, then it is your choice to do more and see if it will get you anywhere financially and security wise.

I know that will fly in the face of many, but if you think you are worth so much more for your abilities, find the employer who will pay it. Otherwise, buck up and show them that you are worth it. If they don't agree within a reasonable amount of time, look for something else. But, as I recently told Shawn, don't leave with bitterness, prove you are worth it for attitude and reputation as well. The fewer bridges you burn, the more opportunity you may have later.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-02-2014 02:00 Edited 03-02-2014 02:10

"Yes, I am, the employer hired me with all my skills, talents, experience, knowledge, and is to be given my all." wow Brent that is in a nutshell how I operate or have forever....I have also figured out that dependent on the honesty of the employer you shall lose with that philosophy. I reckon the simplistic way to say it, especially at the smaller shop level is if someone can take advantage of you they will 7 out of 10. Morality in general has went off the rails in the last 30 years and an honest days pay for an honest days work is a rare exception instead of a norm. Course this is a two way street....the majority of employees hire on to do as little as possible for as much as they can make.....employers are trying to keep their costs down and have a meager field of low skill/low ambitions to pick from....so you end up with this weird stalemate of here is nothing.... prove to me otherwise wages. That is fine as long as both parties are honest. For folks like myself those low ball endeavors are just a calculated risk. I certainly most of the time understand the unwillingness to spend on a skilled chance. I have entered into lowball agreements on a hand shake and have been running thier whole shop in a month or two...at the same time I have had them fishcrawling around telling me how they did not have the cash to live up to their agreement in a month or two as well. Nothing has changed since I started except the breadth of the lies from both sides.

Nowadays I know what I am worth in amount of work done, skill set, what I can do for their bottom line on a given project. My trust of thier side is nonexistent....I clearly state what I will and can do and ask for compensation to what I am willing to accept. I could care less if they hold up their end of the bargain in a verbal way....x amount per hour or per project is what it takes to get me to do it. My conditions are clear, my compensation is clear. I have found I am much happier in that type of relationship because the unknowns are minimized if not eliminated.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-02-2014 02:44

It is such a sad day when we can't depend on anyone's word. You would have to know me, my family and my religious convictions in order to fully grasp this: I TRUST EVERYONE.

I trust them to be human and fail me. They are looking out for themselves. I know, what a low view of my fellow man. Simply, we are all sinners. We all have our weaknesses. We have, are and will continue to fail ourselves, our families, our fellow man, and our God. Even those who regularly go to church. The salvation of the Bible did not totally remove sin and this world's influences from this sphere and my life.

We all have certain standards. I know that all I expect in this life comes from God, not my employer or anyone else. Expecting others to act and react the way we would, or like to think we would, is erroneous. It will lead to bitterness and depression.

It is in God's hands to give and to take, to give power to get (talents, skills, resources) and to remove that power. He puts up one and takes down another.

Bottom line: it is all me, my attitude, my spirit, to live life the best I can and not put too much on others. Pray for them and their success. Work for them like all that they have has been committed to your trust. Ultimately, if they fail, we have no job at all. And definitely no raise. Yeah, I've been lied to about the profits and ability to reward me for my work. But I have also seen it from the employer's perspective and seen what taxes, insurance, rent, utilities and so much more can do to what we thought was going to be a profitable year.

Tommy, I know (I think anyway that I do) what you mean. I have been let down by many more than I have been rewarded by. And in this current economy it isn't looking good at all. Try living in a right to work state. Talk about hard to make a living and pay good wages to your help.

Anyway, I have to live with how I work and be the example that the Lord would have me to be. I'm a long way from perfect as some of my posts would prove. I fail. I try to keep short accounts. And you can't always please everyone. About the time you think you are getting somewhere making things right, they want more. I have believed that I owed apologies even if I was only 1% in the wrong (and sometimes that is simple misunderstanding). But I don't always do it. And even when one does, the other doesn't accept it or doesn't understand it. Especially in print over the internet where communications are so fragile. Words are critical. Definitions must be common to both. And more.

Anyway, that is the way I believe I need to work. Part of why we changed things and went back to just family and do inspections. Easier to take care of things without being responsible for other peoples financial security.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 03-02-2014 16:18

I like to think I understand the human condition. While I want to believe people are basically good, past experience has proved otherwise.
I have learned some things over the years. Things change. People lie And some believe if things change then they have been lied to.
Also what you don't know is not the worst thing. What you think you do know that just aint so is the worst thing to believe.
I have given up on depending on others to make me happy and satisfied. If I agree to do a job for $X and the customer agrees, I expect them to pay me. If they can't I am not going to pi$$ and whine about it. I am gone. Just give me my last check and no hard feelings. But if I decide to stay, then all the grief is on me!
I have seen rig welders who take a single hand job bemoaning the fact they can do the cedar fence post broken heart crack of dawn thing and they are not appreciated because they have to take the single hand wages. But most single hand work does not require the skill level most rig welders have. Is it the contractors fault you have a skill set worth $50 per but the contractor has a skill need of $26? If you are willing to take $26 that does not make your skill set worth less.
Be looking for a job paying your perceived worth. And when that job becomes available, take it.
That day.
Companies have never has issue with immediate discharge of employees. Why do workers have issue with immediate discharge of employers?
But give up on that idea that in the "Old Days" workers were taken better care of and appreciated more. Like today there were some who did, but in general the employee/employer relationship has not changed since the dawn of the industrial revolution. While all employers will tout employees are their greatest asset, in reality, an employee is a liability.
Always.
A company has one responsibility. Make money.
It is not their responsibility to make you happy, well fed nor satisfied with your career.
A company has to provide a safe place to work, the equipment necessary to do that job, pay their bills, and operate legally.
That's it.
Give up on the idea it is somebody else's responsibility to make one happy or satisfied. It takes a mind change that YOU are responsible for where you are today. Not your employer, your family, the president or the congress.
It is you.
Treat others well, love your family and appreciate every day you get up in the morning, brush your teeth and wipe your own butt without assistance.

By 803056

Date 03-02-2014 02:43 Edited 03-02-2014 02:48

If you buy something at the flea market for $5.00, it’s a trinket. If you pay $5000 for the same item at a gallery, it becomes a treasured piece of art.

It is no different in the world of employment. Work for $10.00 an hour and you are unskilled labor. If one does the same work for a fixed price that is ten times higher, he becomes an artisan.

A good friend of mine once said, "It is just as easy to say $50 as it is to say $5 and the buyer will appreciate the work more if he pays the higher price."

In school, they told us that if your bids are fetching more than 50% of the work, your bids are too low.

It is an age-old battle where the new businessperson figures bidding low will get him more work. In many cases, he's right, but working 80 hours a week at $10.00/hour takes more effort than working 20 hours at $40/hour. The chances are, the business charging the higher price will still be in business two years from now, whereas the bottom feeder will be long gone.

Everyone that has tried to go into business for themselves knows it is a balancing act to find the price point the market will bear. The way around it is to separate your business from the herd by finding a specialty that may have a high cost of entry, but that keeps the competition at bay. Businesses that have a low cost of entry tend to be highly competitive. That lowers the profit of the owner and the wages paid to the workers.

Skilled trades that require license, a cost barrier in the form of education, experience, and some form of examination, typically pay better wages than an occupation that does not require a license or certification.

Companies that seek certification to some recognized standard are setting themselves apart from other competitors. However, the cost of certification or registration only makes sense if the credential is recognized and required by customers that are willing to pay a price differential.

Life is a balancing act.

Best regards - Al