Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Advertisers
1 2 Previous Next  
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-05-2014 05:00
Well, it has happened. The money grubbers have gotten their way and now we have advertisers, starting with ESAB, placing a banner on the Forum. It starts with a banner and then what?

Time to go elsewhere I guess. I just get sick of being bombarded with advertisers everyplace I go on the web. The Forum is now nothing more than another opportunity to sell something. That's not why I spend my time here. ESAB, congratulations - the Forum is all yours. The banner: counter productive - I'll start looking to other suppliers for my needs.

AWS - collect your pennies for each viewers, but not from me. Now the Forum is just another business site like the multitude of others.

Signing off.

Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-05-2014 05:51
Problems:
1) where do we go?
2) how long will they last?
3) How many advertisers can this put site put up without being nothing but a page of ads with no room for the forum?
4) I guess Miami cares more about $$$ than about us and our opinions.

I'm going to stop posting and checking in until someone contacts me with an apology and says it won't be that way.

Only way to make a point seems to be by abandoning something we like because it is being handled in a way we don't. 

May have to stop some other activities as well.  Have to see what other decisions have been made we don't know about.

Have a Great .....
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 03-05-2014 12:27
Al,Brent before you go some where else let me know before you do.

     M.G.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-05-2014 13:02
I am as sensitive to ads in our faces as anybody. I think a better approach would be to continue protest, and to use the ad as a reminder, to ourselves and to others, to find alternative products and continue to remind readers of such so that the ad becomes a negative factor.
I do not advocate abandoning the site since this smacks of cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think continually emphasizing the negative aspects is better.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 03-12-2014 17:16
Well guys, I hope you will call in today @ 3:00 Eastern and take the time to invest in the forum here and voice your concerns and or opinions on all of this. I've been a part of the forum for awhile now and take a vested interest in all of you guys/gals who participate here...hoping you will try to make the conference call. If I'm in the office at that time, I will try to call in myself and listen to the discussion/conversations.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-12-2014 20:28
We had a productive teleconference with about six forum users, coming up with some good options that AWS staff is exploring. I will report back in a few days with a status. Thanks to those who called in.

Ross
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-12-2014 22:55
Sorry I couldn't make it, had a hospital appointment!
Parent - - By swsweld (****) Date 03-13-2014 04:13
Hope everything is OK.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-13-2014 05:27
yeah no prob, just a blood pressure thing!
Parent - By ross (***) Date 03-13-2014 12:21
That can be serious!

Ross
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 04-14-2014 12:34
ross are you and others still working on the advertising on the forum it has been a few weeks and we haven't heard anything.

                                      M.G.
Parent - By Jssec (**) Date 03-12-2014 18:37
Has anyone actually ever be persuaded to make a purchase from an advertiser on any site?
In all my years I have never viewed an Ad then made the purchase in a day, week, month or ever.
If anything I just go to another site much like changing channels or now just turning TV off.
Parent - By Sourdough (****) Date 03-23-2014 15:38
Heh heh heh heh heh....hmm hmm hmm hmm.....HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA...hack hack hack....HAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aws is not about money........
- - By ross (***) Date 03-05-2014 14:53
Your comments are being heard and discussed. Maybe we don't talk enough about what happens when we get financial support from a company or anyone else, whether it is at the show or when they advertise or whatever. Times have been good the last few years, so we started a matching scholarship program, for instance, resulting in $1.8 million in new money for kids to get a welding education. Are you opposed to our mission or just the way it is funded? Because companies are wanting to be a part of the growth of the welding profession --- and when they support it, you are probably going to see evidence of it.

Ross
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-05-2014 15:22
Ross,

It may be old fashioned; but many of us have enjoyed the pure technical environment provided by this forum for over a decade.

This forum was 100% unique, and some of us feel strongly about keeping it that way.

Now, lets for a moment think about the people who are objecting.  

They are deeply involved in the AWS, via section leadership, committee work, test proctors, and technical and scientific article authors.

People who have freely given of their time, thousands of hours.... Think about that... Consultants who charge hundreds of dollars an hour for their expertise, give voluntary time to the AWS... AND THIS FORUM.   They see wisdom in keeping advertisements off this forum.

What they want to see is one "tiny" island of pure technical conversation, hosted by the AWS, where they can continue to freely give.

Mission?   The posters who are objecting to the advertising are volunteers who embody the "Mission" of the AWS in a way that advertising or money simply cannot.  They at no cost, share expertise in every aspect of materials joining, welding, code compliance, manufacturing, research and development, and most importantly mentoring.

Knowing AWS is a non-profit, I would still prefer that for the above mentioned reasons, the only money changing hands related to this forum would be for it's upkeep.. And even credit for that should not be flown as a banner here.

Thanks for listening Ross.
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 03-05-2014 16:10
Lawrence
perfect
agreed
thank you your time and consideration
hope this helps
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 03-11-2014 02:24
I AGREE with Lawrence 100%
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 03-05-2014 15:37
Ross ~ As the topic name of this post "Advertisers" have a forum topic "Advertisers". If the companies supporting AWS want to advertise with the forum; provide them a forum topic, or, provide "Links" to advertisers.  That ESAB banner at the top of the forum is  "SPAM"!!!  Forum Members can then on their own volution access that information. And if AWS (headquarters or volunteers) need more to do; police the topic and weed out the marketing hysteria. Force the "Advertisers" to prove their claims and disclose what is the advantage or disadvantage of XYZ product, process or what they are providing. If the companies are wanting to be part of the welding profession and not to solely profit from it have them prove it.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-05-2014 16:41
Ross,
"Opposed to our mission"?
Naked sanctimoniousness is not the best way to defend your point of view.
You don't get the moral high ground here.
And somehow I suspect the noble mission will not be so noble in its end when AWS uses it as its own marketing ploy.

Also, being in the industry what I see as a bigger problem is not lack of money, but a lack of interest in todays youth in such trades. That is unless we can turn welding into a video game. The company I work for has started its own FREE training program for young welders and we can't even fill up the available work stations.
As for education opportunities I also see a great deal of waste. The industry is filled with educated hacks mired in lazy mediocrity. And in my opinion for two reasons. A college education was expected by parents and the accomplishment of it is lessened because mom and dad made it too easy.

In other words, maybe throwing money at it isn't the solution to the problem, unless the problem is of course more PR for AWS.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-05-2014 16:52
Thanks. Generally people say the scholarships are a good thing, but I hear your perspective.

Ross
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-05-2014 17:53
Ross,
I appreciate your graciousness. Overall I am not convinced they are. It seems a slam dunk but in my opinion its not. In a few select targeted cases perhaps it can be argued. I am sure there are poster children for the concept. But as a general concept no. I see little evidence in society as whole that widespread scholarships are that effective. On the contrary, I contend that those who would take most advantage of them, the diligent, hard working young people, would have made successes of themselves anyway. This country became the greatest on the planet long before the idea of scholarships was implemented. And I am always suspect of the motivations of the foundations and organizations that award these scholarships.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-05-2014 18:44
I have met many of the recipients of AWS scholarships, including people who ultimately became very successful in the industry and even some who became Section leaders and AWS Board of Directors members. Hearing their stories, I am honestly convinced that we are doing good by helping young people with opportunities they would not otherwise have. It is a big part of the mission of AWS. Individuals continue to contribute significant sums to AWS for this purpose. The ads help us double the impact of those heartfelt contributions.

I beg everyone to moderate their tone and some of the extremely hurtful words that have been used about AWS on this thread.

Ross
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-05-2014 20:08
Ross,
There is no intent to hurt feelings on my part. But you offered to substantiate your argument for cheap tasteless advertising, that at least by the current posts a majority of contributors oppose, by bringing in the idea of scholarship money. I simply stated that I do not believe it makes that big a difference in society. And I do not hold to the idea of being GIVEN opportunities. You MAKE opportunities.
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 03-08-2014 03:59 Edited 03-08-2014 04:23
Ross
everyone who posted here never put the aws down
matter fact I gave this forum all the props I could
they only told how they feel about ads here
and to tell the truth I do not notice them
hope this helps
sincerely,
Kent
btw js said free pizza with the ads
can we get free beer also??????????:evil::wink:
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 03-05-2014 17:54 Edited 03-05-2014 17:58
Ross,

As final post,  I’ll offer a possible solution, rather than an objection.

If ESAB or any other player would like to contribute to the AWS mission by absorbing the costs of this unique forum, I would be happy to compose an article of thanks and gratitude that could be published in the Welding Journal, Inspection Trends and The Fabricator, that would be so genuine and complementary it would make their mothers cry.  It would also oblige their aspiration for recognition of their participation, whilst at the same time promote the Forum itself in a powerful way.
Parent - By cddolan74 (**) Date 03-05-2014 18:28
I think making a big stink will help better than exclusion from the forum.  definitely concerned how its starts with a banner and will lead to other invasive advertisement. I hope ESAB will hear somehow my disapproval of advertising in this forum
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 03-05-2014 18:59
Hello Ross, this might be slightly off-topic, but I see scholarships in this manner. I have been in education for 20+ years, the toughest thing about educating people is weeding through the ones who are truly wanting an education and those who are riding the free-money trail or the "I've been forced to go to school by my parents" track. A "scholarship" in the hands of a dedicated and hungry student is an amazing thing, for others it is simply another way to pay for a good time with no real consequences, at least not at the time that they are squandering it. I don't have the exact statistics, but I would say that when I was in school there was a very high percentage of students who were paying for their educations out of their own pockets, or with the help of parents and relatives and they fell into the hungry or driven track. They were also well in tune to possessing work ethics and a "drug free" attitude. There are still a "few" of these sorts of students, but the majority are on the financial aid/student loans programs and of these folks a large number don't have a true perspective on what the future holds for them or the consequences that half-assing an education will bring. We usually see these people returning in 5 to 10 years and having to jump through hoops and have re-payments and other challenges to deal with before they can get down to business and really "learn" something, pursue a career, and become a valuable contributor to their families and society as a whole. Sorry for the side-track. As to the ads issue here, yes I would be among those who would prefer to have a Topic Section dedicated to ads as opposed to have them incorporated into the general forum layout. Thank you and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-05-2014 19:22
You're telling me my whole life has been a pointless ruse. Like if you found out that everything you have ever welded was re-glued together in the shipping department just before going out.

I don't believe it. I have met too many success stories.

Ross
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 03-05-2014 20:56
Ross, I don't know if your reply was intended for me. If so, I believe that I didn't come across in the intended manner. Have I seen success stories that hinged on application and use of scholarships? Most certainly! Have I seen an equal or greater number that were just another manner of financial squandering? Yes I have seen that also. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there are no crystal balls to tip me or anyone else off to tell the difference very readily. Those sorts of results develop over time and just add to the frustration that many of us in education experience.

Another way to put this might go along this line, I am expected as an educator to provide stellar results with the people that I interact with regardless of their own intentions. For many people, they make a positive result easy, for others it wouldn't matter if I could open up their thick heads and pour all of the skill/information into them, they wouldn't care and wouldn't apply any of it anyway. They're just along for the "ride" or the "experience". The sad part is that while I'm expending effort on the ones that really don't care I am taking away from the ones that do. That is a balancing act that is often hard to quantify and explain to folks looking in from the outside and determining the worth of educational endeavors. Sorry for the rant. Have a great day, Allan
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-05-2014 21:10
Do you know on the first day of class who will and won't be a success? Don't the schools themselves benefit from increased attendance from kids who have financial aid, even if they don't all immediately succeed as individuals?

Ross
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 03-05-2014 22:05
Ross, I am one of the first ones to be thrilled with the new faces that we see in our classes. I am also one of the ones that doesn't tend to promote all of the placement testing and pre-college assessment that is required of all new students. I believe in "dangling the carrot" in front of new students to gain their interest and educate them on the importance of academic as well as technical skills and how they relate to the trades, yet I would rather see them gain interest first and also confidence, as many are not recent high school grads. Then I will work them over and attempt to bring them to see the value of subjects that they otherwise have no interest in as they only want to "weld".

To answer your first question: Not on a bet or by any means. As I said, I don't have a crystal ball. To comment on your other comments/questions: our school certainly benefits from increased enrollment numbers, our program does not necessarily, I know that this statement doesn't make any sense, yet, the explanation could take up a couple of pages and I might not effectively relay the information anyway. If all of our students had noble intentions then scholarships, financial aid, and any other sort of help would be a moot point. Unfortunately, the weeding process and the personal enlightenment of students is a huge variable, as I believe that you stated, immediate results/success aren't always there or readily apparent. Gotta run for now Ross. I am not attempting to argue the value of aid for those in need I am simply saying that this is a tricky thing to do with the wide variety of students and their intentions. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By Blaster (***) Date 03-06-2014 15:24
I have seen lots of very good students, mostly adult students, benefit greatly from scholarships.  Our tuition is about 1,800 per quarter, plus books, plus about 1,500 in tools and personal protective gear, plus a couple hundred per quarter for lenses, gloves, wire wheels, abrasives, and so-forth.  Pretty spendy for a community college.

In my experience, most of the slackers are too lazy to apply for scholarships, particularly if they require any sort of essay.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-05-2014 21:32
I don't know about the adds. I saw the Esab one the other day when I came here but have pretty much ignored it since. I will most likely ignore any other adds that are here. The adds do not attract my cash flow or sway my opinion of a product. I'm a hard head and once I find something I really like I'm pretty much there unless they screw with the product and it suddenly goes to pot. I've tried things over the years because I came here and talked with folks like Lawrence, Al, John, Henry, Ted, Tommy, Stan and others who have helped me in situations, critiqued me, criticized me all in an effort to help me better understand this industry. I must admit however, coming to a place where I don't have adds popping up at me, some little worm or whatever tailoring the adds because they are tracking my every movement is very nice.

I have noticed over the last few months that the forum seems to have had a dwindling crowd. Perhaps its because everyone is busy(I hope so) but reading thru this thread and it seems as though lots of the guys I respect will be riding off into the sunset because of this advertisement situation. Guess I need to get some email addresses and phone numbers from them, if they are not here then I most likely will not be here. The ad's I can ignore, quite easily as a matter of fact but the lack of stimulating conversation(reading) from the likes of users listed above and then it's just another forum.

As far as the scholarships. I've been to college, several as a matter of fact, ok, trade schools and a little actual real college. I know for a fact from being at the welding school and I have seen first hand that it's about a 50/50 deal. 50% seem to really have the drive to learn, interested in the program, spend the money they receive wisely. Others however were just waiting around for another grant check, doing whatever they needed to(least amount possible) in order to keep that free money coming in. They stood around talking, smoking, or would just flat out disappear for most of the class. The ones sent over from the career center were the worst! Just there to collect a check, that was provided by my hard earned tax dollars.

Ad's on the AWS forum, eh, I could do without but as stated earlier I can ignore them. It's not really the place for it when we come here for the most part to learn and have technical discussions. Yes, it can be argued that we have our "Off Topic Bar and Grill", a place to kick your feet up and laugh a bit but still can't see the ad's really belonging here. I think somebody said something about a section for advertisers. If they want their banner posted it could be done on this that forum page, they could post threads, Esab thread or Lincoln, whoever, maybe explain products, showcase some new stuff but not emblazoned everywhere.

Just my two cents I guess.

Shawn
Parent - - By JLWelding (***) Date 03-06-2014 02:59
After about a year I just started coming back around and I think Al is right. I'am outa here.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-06-2014 08:57
I'm not sure what the fuss is about. I am against adverts on this site as much as many seem to be, however I have anti advert stuff n my browser (chrome)
and can't see this ESAB banner! Easy fix!
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-06-2014 11:17
My daughter said Google Chrome was "awesome" and the best browser, reading your comment I might have to check into it!
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-06-2014 18:15
Well I was desperate to have a look at this ESAB logo, so I fired up Internet Explorer 11 and it seems that the logo is classed as not secure content.......? This means that most computer users will be able to make the advertising logos disappear just by a mild tweaking of their settings.

Here is a brief how to:

To Disable/Enable/Prompt the “Only secure content is displayed” message:
1.Start Internet Explorer.
2.On the Tool menu, click Internet Options.
3.Click the Security tab, and then click Custom level.
4.In the Settings box, scroll down to the Miscellaneous section, and under Display mixed content choose from the following options:

Disable, will not display non-secure items.
Enable, will always display non-secure items without asking
Prompt, will prompt you when a webpage is using non-secure content

Note: Internet Explorer blocks non-secure content to keep your information safe and is set to Prompt by default. When this setting is set to Enable, Internet Explorer does not prompt you with the "Only secure content is displayed" message even if the webpage is using non-secure elements.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 03-06-2014 15:15
I see it on my work computer but not on my Ipad... which I think uses Bing.
Parent - - By 357max (***) Date 03-06-2014 15:28
Have a Forum Topic - A name could be "Marketplace"  this would eliminate the paper stuffing with the Welding Journal. Go Green Paperless. The "Contributors" would have a place to showcase their wares and the forum wouldn't need to be "decorated" with corporate logos and banners.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 03-06-2014 21:08
Baby steps. What ever those with authority want is accomplished by baby steps.
And so what's next?
Flashy things, moving things, to catch our eye?
A prompt telling us to click on this for a free Papa Johns pizza?
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-07-2014 02:19
I hear Sonic are ready with their ad's already!
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 03-07-2014 15:48
free pizza?????????????????
these ads could be good:twisted::evil:
maybe free beer also:twisted::evil::cool:
sincerely,
Kent
ps I vote for free pizza and beer:evil::cool:
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 03-07-2014 03:56
Ross
thank you
the AWS has done a good thing here
many rouge nations came here for information for there nuclear enrichment plants
now the AWS has ran the best and the brightest off here
thank you for the help
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 03-07-2014 06:45 Edited 03-07-2014 06:50
Here we go again!

Ross, please listen to our suggestions, recommendations because the suggestions posted so far do make sense and would satisfy most if not all of us who oppose this - well, to put it bluntly - a very insulting maneuver on your or the AWS's part by going forth with this change without so much as even a heads up, even though there was a thread last year with posted replies, and started by somebody else I might add that alluded to the possibility, and only a possibility of implementing this advertising move that is again very insulting to suddenly start in the manner in which we have experienced at the present time...

I mean, it's good to see you posting again but, don't you think out of respect towards the long standing participants that you could have given us a heads up, and ask us if we could come up with alternatives that would satisfy everybody? I say this because most, if not all of us feel that we have a personal stake in this forum, and we feel that we should be shown more courtesy by including us in how we would go about making such a change...

The way I look at it is that there was no compromise to seek beforehand on the AWS's part when the decision was made to implement this change, and that in itself speaks at the very heart as to why we are for the most part upset about this sudden move... I can remember when there was an issue about whether or not it was wise to get rid of the body of knowledge that was built up over the years, and instead of just going forward and implementing that move, you instead discussed it with us beforehand and we came to a compromise that was satisfactory to most if not all of us - remember that? If you do? then why can't we do the same with this change???

I think the idea of having a marketing section of the forum where the advertisers can display whatever they choose, and even giving some of them the opportunity to have a Lincoln, an ESAB, or a Miller section - well maybe not Miller because they have their own forum but then again, if they want one also and are willing to pay for it then go that route but please don't advertise in the existing sections and ruin the integrity and purity of the sections and pissing off the majority of the most active participants and major contributors to this wonderful repository of knowledge that took so long to build up only to have it poisoned with advertisement in the already existing sections!!! And some of the sections have very little activity like the regional AWS sections and advertising may do them some good along with some more localized advertisement offerings to the AWS sections also... I mean the bottom line is this Ross, there are so many other alternatives to use without affecting the integrity of the existing sections where the majority of the threads are posted and where the knowledge is in...

And 46.00 does have a point to use an adblocker for the present time in order to prevent the ad from being seen currently yet some of the folks that post in here aren't "Puter" savvy as 46,00 or myself yet, it would be so much better to isolate the ads to be posted in a marketing section or one of their own sections while simultaneously keeping the integrity and purity of the existing sections intact.. I think you should take advantage of those recommendations in order to alleviate some of the bad vibes this move has already generated Ross...

Now I don't object to starting a marketing section or any of the companies interested in buying into their own sections but, please leave the rest of our forum alone friend! Okay?
C'mon Ross! I know that you have it in you to find a compromise to this problem because you did it before - remember? C'mon Ross! You can do it!!!:yell::eek::twisted::wink:

Btw, it's good to see you post again Ross! I was wondering what happened to your frequent visits here and started thinking that the AWS must have promoted you to some big shot position that didn't afford you the time to converse with us members in the forum.:grin::smile::lol::wink::cool: Please reconsider hombre.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 03-07-2014 13:09
Perhaps we need to keep in mind that it is because so many of us value so greatly what AWS is doing here that we are so vehement when we think it is going the wrong way. Nobody gets pizzed over things they don't care about.
Parent - - By FarmCode (*) Date 03-07-2014 13:27 Edited 03-07-2014 13:31
Ross,

You purposfully directed the conversation toward schollarships !

This post was about advertising...  

That's pretty low.  And obviously manipulative

Delete your sniveling or repost it in the Education section.

That old Bear Al finally makes one good post after spouting all that code nonsence for the last 12 years on the forum and you go into full distraction mode.

U a lawyer/liar for your day job?
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-07-2014 13:51
There's probably a nicer way to make your point, Lawrence.

Ross
Parent - - By FarmCode (*) Date 03-07-2014 14:04 Edited 03-07-2014 14:06
Nice is ignored.

The only effort you have put into this thread are your Non sequitur attempts to take the converstion away from it's important direction.

My motives are clear enough.. So were Al's

Can you say the same?
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 03-07-2014 14:12
I think it's easy to take things the wrong way in these brief messages and jump to conclusions. Who would like to participate in a conference call on this issue?

Ross
Parent - - By FarmCode (*) Date 03-07-2014 14:24
You have been presented in the stretch of two days with a number of viable alternatives... All of these, you have neglected to respond to; only bothering with talk about scholarships.

What would be the agenda of such a conference call?

Justifications for ignoring the will of the participants ?

I'm still pretty toasted about your questioning people's understanding about the "Mission" of the AWS....   You are the only person in the room who gets a monthly check by them.

Trying with phonetalk to to convince people that Advertisements are a great idea is not going to have much effect on the objectors.

If you are brainstorming to come up with ideas to go forward without advertizing on every page... Set up the call.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Advertisers
1 2 Previous Next  

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill