Hello, I am a quality manager for a construction company that specializes in fabrication of new and used offshore platforms. Recently the fabrication manager came up with the idea to measure welder productivity by weighing rolls of FCAW wire before welder begins, and at the end of work day. His deposition rate was calculated using approximately mid point of welding parameters. It was determined that Welders should have an arc time of approx 25% of a 10 hour day, and Welders should be depositing an avg of 25 lbs/week. I can understand using this method when welding continuously such as in a fillet weld on a fab table or station where other factors such as access, gouging, and welding equipment relocation to make a new weld. But this seems to me impossible to use across the board and be able to make a confident and just decision regarding a Welders productivity. Has anyone ever encountered this before, and can someone give me their opinion as to why this is a good or bed method to determine welding productivity?
Length of weld per hour/day/month.
Size of welds required.
Arc on time. Or operating factor.
Those are the essentials that you must have to evaluate.
Depending on how accurate you want to be, you may use these to pinpoint waste and calculate productivity.
Google search Jack Barckhoff... His book Total Weld Management is the best full treatment of welder productivity.
Also the Lincoln Weld Procedure Manual dedicates chapter 12 to weld cost and provides all the tools and formulae you need.
I don't understand how you are getting only 25 lbs of weld per week from a welder if he has an arc on for 25% of a 10 hour day... That makes no sense.
But if you are on an off shore rig and your FCAW operator has a real Arc On Time of 25% (meaning 2.5 hours out of 10 actually welding) That is a pretty good sign... Most manufacturing manual FCAW shops would be lucky to see that kind of operating factor
Really bad idea, you will start finding wads of wire in the most peculiar places.
All this will do is piss the welders off.
Years ago worked in a weld out yard, they tried to figure how much production.
At the start of the day, they would open up a box of rods for you then see how many you had burned by the end of the day.
So, burn one, throw one over the fence. Then they wanted to see the stubs.
Guys going to porta potty were looking all over for a stub. Cleanest weld out yard you've ever seen.
They tried to mow the yard next door and couldn't because of all the rod stubs.
Sounds like a "Rookie" manager.
Not at all good sir
If you watch filler metal weight and ALSO understand how many pounds of filler per foot of weld is required in your work... Wasted electrode floats to the top and is very visable... No matter where Johnny wants to try to hide it.
Understand weld size and volume is key.
Making a 1/4" fillet weld when a 3/16 fillet is called out is a 78% waste in both filler metal and arc on time....
IF you can take the time to know what you do...
Lawrence, that is an average (Avg.) of 25 lbs a week, not a total. We have a few fabrication shops that support welding, and also do a lot of welding on site which may require scaffold access, manlifts, more position welds than in a typical shop, etc. To me these are all major factors that need to be included when calculating productivity which are not being taken into consideration. I think I saw a post in regards to wire being thrown away.. well this is not necessarily the case. Instead they are using it in the form of overwelding a majority of the welds in the yard. This was implemented by the yard due to excessive manhours on welding side of projects, but in my opinion is a waste of money in more ways than one. More wire usage, more gas usage, more manhours per weld. But the wire weight per welder is good(in some cases). I will check out the book, thanks for the input.
So using this theory, if I turn my setting way high, keep a long stick out, re route the wire to my FCAW gun three times and hour put down 10 foot of rough rejectable weld deposit with a weeks worth of spatter at the side of it (wasted weld metal?) I suddenly become the top welder in the shop?
Crap idea.
Slagline, 46, I agree with what your saying, more wire cost, more gas cost, more manhours per weld, and before long a shop full of welders crafty enough to be able to get rid of wire without getting caught. Thanks for your input.
None of this matters, in a statistical way, unless you've formed production related numbers prior to the change.
Operating factor is a very site/manpower specific number. It can also be a very telling number.
Your site specific conditions have such a major influence on operating factor numbers that using the stopwatch is your only accurate take. Some workforces are lazy and smart adaptive-lazy. Hard to get good numbers there. Some are producion related active, you'll get solid numbers here. Guess which is higher paid?
So without pre change hard numbers, the change is only an exercise in fantasy deposition rates. You only get, in hard money terms, what YOUR workforce will put out with any particular process.
When you have production willing welders, you can get high numbers with a more efficient process. When you have average slugs, do as little as possible welders, you'll only get what you get regardless of process.
It's a complicated equasion, in my opinion. Better welders can beat production numbers with a lessor process' and slugs can kill you with the best process. It's a teetering edge for the employer. Find the right place and all is profitable, for welder and the Co.
Your on site conditions will tell the tale if you use the stopwatch wisely.
J
JTM, it seems to me that you may work on the quality, or management side of the field. You seem to have a good analytical perspective to this matter. I also think that this would be possible, but the only way it would be worth using would be to do a real time study on the majority of different situations a welder can and will be put in. Seems like a very very long list.
Well kind of. I own a Small little business but I've been teaching myself to quote since an apprentice in the mid 80's. I use the watch cause it won't lie..
The list isn't that long and it isn't that time consuming, if it becomes a regular part of the routine.
How can you hard money quote if you don't have in house numbers????
It doesn't require thousands of $$$ to do time/motion studies, just an interested party with a watch. But I'm small small.
Big multi billion outfits I worked for years ago, I did the same (for practice) with just a watch and a piece of paper.
Today it would be easier I'd think. But arc time is arc time, depo LB/hr is Depo/Lb/hr.
Observance opens the gate. In my opinion.
Knowledge of YOUR workforce is key.
J
The best welder on the job site is likely stuck with the most difficult welds with the most difficult access, and with doing repairs on the welds other welders were not able to pass.
The least skilled probably are doing the easiest work.
Do you think comparing deposition under those circumstances would make sense?
All you need in order to tell if the welders are doing what they are supposed to be doing productively is employ a competent foreman and then ask him.
I agree Blaster, I feel that that the problem with the welding department leadership, and not the welders. I think this idea is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of, I'm thinking the next step is going to be to measure the amount of gas in our volume tanks each week.
If your a QC Manager, you really need to stamp some authority on that fabrication manager, he/she has some wild idea's!
Just an idea: you might want to talk with the welders themselves to find out what might increase production. As often as not, when a corporation gets large enough to mandate multiple layers of management not directly involved in production, those layers of management can be at the mercy of statistical abstractions that do not relate to actual conditions. It's likely the welders will already think they are putting out enough production and it will also be likely that viewpoint will be directly related to the rate they are being paid, however it might also be possible they are frustrated at not being able to be more productive because of any number of restraints being placed on them by management.
The best welders and workers want recognition not just for the quality of their work but for their production capacity as well. Top Dog kind of thing. Find out who that dog is and ask a few questions.
There is an international lift equipment manufacturer locally many of the graduating Voc. Tech students get started at. Not one of them with any spit stays very long. They are hog tied by bad managerial decisions that limit their potential to do their best. The best move on quickly.
mgibson,
Welcome to the forum.
" 7 Habits of Highly Effective People"
Habit #2-Begin with the end in mind.
I'm not criticizing the Fab. Manager at all but it seems that the data/info that he will accumulate won't be very useful or accurate. So that leads me to ask, what is he trying to achieve with these numbers?
Just a 'ballpark' average to set a benchmark for future comparisons or is it curiosity? Or accurate deposition rates?
As other replies suggest, it will take a more hands on approach to get accurate data.
There are simply too many variables to just weigh the spools at the beginning of the shift and then again at the end of the shift. In my opinion, a good supervisor has an understanding of the processes. A good supervisor makes sure that the welders under his/her supervision are working efficiently and holds them accountable if he/she sees otherwise. A good supervisor has the knowledge and experience to know how long it typically takes to produce any type of weld, and holds the welder accountable if he/she sees otherwise. Obviously, the more arc time, the more weld metal is deposited, which equates to higher productivity. Keep it plain and simple. We have a saying to “take care of your customers needs”. That not only includes external customers, but internal customers as well. The welder is someone’s internal customer. His supplier, the layout/fitter, is responsible to make sure that enough work is being produced to keep welders busy, and keep ‘em under the hood. If we are satisfying the needs of our internal customers, we are, in turn operating at a high efficiency.
Here’s also an interesting link:
Welding Metrics: Economic Impact of Collecting Welding Metrics on a Hand Held PDA
http://www.nsrp.org/6-Presentations/WD/051006_Welding%20Metrics.pdf
Hey MGibson,
I think JTMcC has the right methodology of using Time/Motion studies to determine productivity.
I've done hundreds of motion studies using Maynard Operating Sequence Technique (MOST), which uses textbook standard times for an average person to perform a task. It's the same as using a stopwatch, but takes out the subjectivity of what's "average". Over the years, we now have standard times for crane moves, turning trunnions, welding (by size x length), getting and using tools, etc.
Stopwatching a job would be a good start. The Welder should be an average worker. The person doing the time study should know the ins and outs of the job so he can't be fleeced by the Welder.
Tyrone
I have done quite a bit of weld costing analysis. This method is not fundamentally flawed and will give you a very high level look at weld use. However under no circumstances would I use this to measure individual welder performance.
a)hard or out of position welds will have lower deposition rate
b)No one will want to help another welder with fitting or tacking cause then he's not burning
c)Doesn't measure good weld put down, encourages people to over weld, throw down bad welds etc
I would use it as a gross snap shot to get an idea of how much wire I'm putting down a day, but I wouldn't tell the welders and I would never link it to their individual performance. Often times if you optimize for one thing (pounds/hour of deposition) you'll find that other areas like cooperation, inspection, fitup will suffer.
As a note they do sell arc-on counters little timers that just count how long the machine is on, I have used those once, but the information was used to find out if the welders were going slow due to fabrication difficulty, not to judge their performance.
