How much is too much to pay for certifications?

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 04-14-2014 16:38

Wow. I perform in house qualification testing of some of my students. From the time they finish till I get done with the paperwork usually takes me 2 1/2 hours.

As far as cost. Nothing extra. However my practices are not reviewed by AWS (ATF) however all of the testing is done in accordance with AWS D1.1.

Gerald

By Blaster (***)

Date 04-14-2014 21:30

Testing around here (WA) for structural certs generally runs around a couple hundred per test. But that is by state run (subsidized) community colleges. Probably 2 to possibly 3 times that for private testing.

By ctacker (****)

Date 04-15-2014 02:05

My (old) company was paying $180 to another commercial fab shop that issued WABO qualifications. The money covered electrodes, machine and paperwork to get a WABO in any position. $360
would get you 3G & 4G certs. That was one reason I did not set up for the welder examiner. I couldn't compete with the cost and have designated booths/ welding machines set up, pay their fees, and make a profit. It was a lot easier to pay $180 and have a guy get qualified.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-15-2014 14:19

Welcome to the forum Fit !

Paying for certs is a two sided coin.

*Sometimes* having a cert in hand will open the door for opportunity.

*Fact*.... Most companies do their own Certs (welder performance testing)

*Fact* Having the skill to pass the test (even if you are out of practice) is what is worth money... Not the cert.

*IF* The company requires you to pay for your own certs. and then uses the certs YOU paid for to do their production work.... Beware of this company.... I also predict a company doing this will only offer 10-13 dollars per hour for your services.

By SCOTTN

Date 04-15-2014 16:54

Fit4aking,

Here's a link to a good article:

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/welding-certification.html

Welding Certification - Don't Get me Started....Don't even Get me Started

Topics:

The Death of common Sense in Welding Certification
What does it mean to be a certified welder?
How do I become a certified welder?
What does a welding certification test involve?
Is there one single welding certification test that will certify me to weld anything?
Can a company certify their own welders? Or do they have to use an outside agency?
Does a welding certification at one company certify you to weld at other companies?
Can I use my welding certification at the last company I worked for to weld on the side? Like for moonlighting?
Why should I become a certified welder?
Where can I go to get certified?
How much does it cost to take a welding certification test?
For nuclear work, and for aerospace, the sledgehammer test might not be the best approach. But I still have some suggestions.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-15-2014 17:17

I enjoy watching Jody's videos and hearing him comment on various welding topics.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 04-15-2014 18:46

I met Jody back in the 90's when our two airlines had a short moment of common goals :)

Great guy... Extra smart and obviously generous with his tremendous experience.

By kcd616

Date 04-16-2014 01:50

Scott
we do what we can
I worked on nuclear plants with Bechtel and a few others and with Rockwell on the space shuttle
ooopppsssss.........I let that out :wink:

I was trained by men who worked the Manhattan project and project mercury
sincerely,
Kent

By Darrell_B (*)

Date 04-15-2014 20:25

That seems steep.

I pay about $250 to have bend tests performed on welds I have witnessed for my shop.

By Fit4aking (*)

Date 04-16-2014 20:15

I appreciate all of the replies. I watch Welding Tips and Tricks religiously! Jody is a great guy to learn from and I have tried to mimic his lessons when I can afford to buy new bar stock. (It welds much better than the scraps I tend to find under the oil racks)

I have called around to a few trade schools and none of them teach welding because of state (MD) regulations regarding air circulation, safety requirements, and required equipment. Just wrapped up a CNC laser cutting class at the local community college and they had a TorchMate that they only ran dry because of regulations that prohibited indoor plasma cutting. Kinda sucked running laser/plasma cutting on wood when I was there to learn on metal.

The lack of competition means that Earl Beck, the closest place I can find that does walk-in certs, has the market cornered.

It is odd to me that many local jobs require prior certifications that likely don't match what they require prior to setting up their own test prior to getting a job offer. However, I'm a newbie and still trying to get into the industry.

I have family in Louisiana and there is pretty high demand there for skilled welders but I live in MD. I'd like to get basic certs and try to find work where it is needed instead of just showing up and hoping to get hired on to a place that provides some type of formal training. My background is in automotive and I know that means diddly squat but I practice the crap out of 1/8 and 1/4 inch plate and whatever pipe scraps I can rummage from the local steel yard. Bought my own GMAW/GTAW machine and have ran tons of consumables through it so I'm feeling confident just need to find a place to apply the skills and get over first-timer jitters.

Perhaps I could save the $3600 and fly out to AZ for a vacation and get the certs from JTMcC!!

By JTMcC

Date 04-16-2014 20:45

Fit4aking says:

Perhaps I could save the $3600 and fly out to AZ for a vacation and get the certs from JTMcC!!

Well that's an option. Here's a link to the local Community College weld thing:

http://www.mohave.edu/community/welding-certification-testing

I'm pretty sure you can find something very similar in a state closer to you. My only dealings with those guys was when I called the number and left a message about bending straps. I got no answer. So I'll use the lab I usually do or bend them myself. They are a brand new ATF, maybe the intense AWS ATF auditing process doesn't cover returning potential customers phone calls : 0
After the large write up in the local business paper extolling their large abilities to save business' money with their new accreditation, , I'd think they would at least return calls from local business'. But no.

I have to think there is a lab or CC somewhere within driving distance of you that will administer a simple test at a reasonable price. You need to do some research.
WV and PA are are the most likely places to look.
Looseranna has high demand but low pay. Low cost of living as well but it's still not a balanced equasion. Maybe a livable entry point. IF you like high humidity.

The local building trades apprenticeship programs will have a fair to excellent welding program, and you earn while you learn with all the free iron, rods, gas and machines you can use.

Good fortune to you whichever trail you take. Look close at welder wages in the sector you want to work in, there are a ton of starvation wage welding jobs open right now, many fewer "I can feed the family, have insurance and someday retire" work slots.

J

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 04-17-2014 12:54

Look in the phone book (does anyone have those any more?) or google tank, storage tank, 650 tank and find a tank fabricator in your area. Tell them you can weld and are looking for a welding job. Have clean pee and be able to fog a mirror. Most will give you a shot at a test. If you pop it, they will let you know real quick. Even if they do bust you, they may put you on as a bullganger and let you tack. You will have access to really big equipment and all the electrodes and wire you can burn. Hard frickin work. You have a stinger in one hand and a 4 pound in the other and beat things with both. Weld at break and scarf a samach and run a couple of plates every day at lunch. Never met a supt. who cared if a bullganger welded during lunch.
If you can get on with a crew for a few months to get a little money in your sock and every opportunity be welding you can get in practice, gain experience and develop your confidence as a welder on someone else's nickel.
Get over busting a welding test. Welding test are just a part of the trade and you are not going to pass every one. Anyone who tells you they have never busted a test is, shall I say confused of the facts.
If you are going to do structural as a career, certs from a accreted facility can be worth their cost. But if you get the fever and head to the oil patch, a 4 foot stack of certification papers will not do you any good. You test for everyone you work for and may test for every company they work for. I have seen welders test three days doing the exact same test each day, but for different companies.
Again, get over the busted test. The earlier the better as you will find out real quick your world does not end. I am seeing a lot of young welders who are amazed how much testing is required and get an attitude that if they pass company X test, then why do they have to do a test the next day for company Y.

By kcd616

Date 04-18-2014 02:34

have a phone book
but also busted the first asme test I took
the old timers kicked me in the butt so hard it still hurts :wink:

we deal with life and go on
do your best, all anyone can ask or do
hope this helps
sincerely,
Kent

By Fit4aking (*)

Date 04-22-2014 15:05

Every bit of advice helps!

I've gone out on a few interviews already but no luck. The three shops I've gone to with signs up are only looking for experienced welders. Guy yesterday didn't even know what he was looking for. (Good I didn't take his crap offer.) Couldn't tell me what process they were hiring for, what type of material he was going to put me on just needed me to D1.1 certified plain and simple.

So far that's been the biggest barrier to entry and I've run across it in several industries. If you don't have a degree, certifications, an A.S.E. or whatever piece of paper they think sounds good you are passed over for just about everything. It sucks that there are people out there looking for work that have been welding for years on everything from 22 gauge sheet up to 1/2" plate and they can't get work because of a silly little check box on an online application.

It must just me the area I'm in, or I'm a little bitter. Either way I'll have to get my crap together do what needs to be done and move forward.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 04-24-2014 03:05

Don't go in for a flippin interview!
Go in with your hood gloves and grinder with brushes. Tell them you left your certificates at home. You are ready to test. If the guy hums and haws ask him if he is really wanting a welder or somebody that can fill in an application.
Here is the deal, you pass the test and he offers you a job with the pay spelled out. If you fail you save him the expense of the paper. The D1 he is wanting from somebody else is worth exactly what his application is.
If you believe in yourself somebody will give you a set of plates.
I do not know where you are in the US but here in God's country, you can have a job by lunch. Some of them are the type you have until you find something else but it is still work.
Ask politely for the test but if the penis with ears wants to pull that application, call bunk and call him out. They may throw you out on your ear, but so what. Go to the next shop and do it all over.
And quit that interview BS. Either they want a welder or they don't. And they will give you a test or not. Should take you 10 minutes to figure it out. Tops.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 04-24-2014 06:15

Excellent advice Big D! :smile:

I'm not going to add anything because you have covered the bases so, once again Sage advice DBK! :twisted:

Respectfully,
Henry

By kcd616

Date 04-24-2014 08:22 Edited 04-24-2014 08:25

Henry
perfect
dbk covered it
except as the GC I want a resume
tell me what you have done
so we both do not waste our time
we have all busted a test :eek:

but as old timers we can look and go they will do good work
Milt is the one I want to hear from
chime in Milt
hope this helps
sincerely,
Kent

By Fit4aking (*)

Date 04-28-2014 14:36

DBK - I completely understand your point. I've landed more jobs in my life by walking in the door ready to work than I've ever gotten from submitting a resume. I have a bag that holds my hood, gloves and a few tools that goes with me to these "interviews". so far they have all occurred in office buildings away from the shops. Seems to me that's the culture here in MD. Everyone is putting on airs and renting a meeting space instead of letting you walk into a shop and show what your worth. Kind of frustrating. Walked into a shop last week that had a huge sign on their fence but the lady in the front office told me to fill out an online form first. Not going back there.

I reconnected with the $1,200 per cert place (http://www.earlbeck.com/) and they offer mail-in certifications for out of state clients. They are the company that all local community colleges send students to for welding classes so they work with accredited schools in my area. The "out of state" fee is $375 and they provide the coupons. I can even go pick them up and drop them off just can't use their equipment to take the test. It's a strange world out here in over-regulated Maryland.

Last note, I was talking with a guy in the rent-a-room that was there as an independent contractor. Supposedly if you have a federal/state tax I.D. you can bid on positions for larger jobs and come on with the supervising company as an independent contractor. He said that's the fastest way over the fence to getting an on the job cert. Again, it's a strange world out there. I may just work on building up the home shop or finding a small space to get into.

By JTMcC

Date 04-26-2014 19:48 Edited 04-26-2014 19:51

I have to disagree with quite a bit of that post.

An entry level lawyer with a Harvard degree can certainly expect a higher paying entry level job than a lawyer with a degree from East Ohio U.
But Harvard/Yale are not currently qualifying welders. And welder pay is what it is, dependent on sector & productivity.
Welders don't make significantly higher wages because they paid too much for a qualification test.
They make significantly more by making quality welds in a short period of time in higher paying sectors of welding world. And by showing up on time, every day, and passing the drug test plus having a good safety record.

This is no comparison to a Ivy League degree.

Overpaying for a welder qual is just that, overpaying.

And testing yourself (which I've done many times, I qualify all the welders here from time to time), doesn't cost "nothing". I've got way over 1k this last week in testing myself on a 12" butt & branch, and it will result in quite a bit of income like it has over the last 20+ years. I do keep the straps just in case someone wants to see them and some do.
Done correctly those will stand up under harsh scrutiny (in many curcumstances, not in others).
The test is simply an entry fee for a welder, I understand it's a big money maker for some inspectors, the real money for the welder is made in the field welds produced, the time it takes to make them, and the quality of those welds.

JTMcC, who has self tested quals, and 3rd party quals, whatever is required to make the job a success. But no over priced quals from a prestigeous university.

By 803056

Date 04-26-2014 21:02

Silly boy.

Al

By JTMcC

Date 04-27-2014 03:17

Since my kids like to eat, I'm interested in any test that produces income regardless of how odd it is.

In fact, I'm in negotiations with Esab to put a little yellow logo on the vehicles. Ever little bit helps.

Then I'm gonna go for that Princeton lawn mower deck cert, it's real prestigious I hear. And recognized by virtually every John Deere dealer worldwide.

JT

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 04-28-2014 03:05

I get real heartburn with companies accepting other companies welder qualifications. A third party with accreditation to a code or standard that will accept it is fine. But if all a company is wanting is a cert paper and then will use it without qualifying the welder, they should be handed a bunch of pencil whipped boiler housed certs. If companies are going to be that unethical and you need to put food on the table, I have no issue with a welder playing their game.
But move on as quick as you can.
I get fed up with the "Game" contractors and welders play with paper. Follow the code or standard and live with it. But remember a weld test is verification of skills on one particular day. Really good welders can fail a test and really bad welders can pass a test. If you are taking somebody else's welder qualification papers all you know is that on a certain day that person passed a test.
Maybe.
I have not seen a lot but I have seen a few welders try to pass off bogus paper.

By JTMcC

Date 04-28-2014 04:32

Given the configuration of the forum it can be hard to tell at times who a post is really responding to.

If that post wasn't a response to mine, then just ignore these comments.

If it was then I'm confused, I'm not talking about a company accepting another companies paper. I own the business and have qualified our welders for years.
I've also used 3rd party RT on coupons or destructive test's on straps, but still qualified the welders in house.
For some jurisdictions we venture into the entire test has to be done at a specific 3rd party facility.

So whatever the prime or the owner requires, and whatever the governing body they are working under requires, that's what we do. There's nothing unethical or bogus involved. We test where, when, and how the customer requires.
All of our doc's get submitted, and we don't work till all is accepted by whatever authority is in place.

JT

By 803056

Date 04-28-2014 17:05

There are good contractors and there are "bad" contractors and in some cases it is a situation where the contractor doesn't really know what is right or what is required.

Unfortunately, there are nearly as many inspectors that take on work that is unfamiliar and they don't understand the requirements. Usually they are too damn cheap to buy their own copy of the applicable code. In turn, they feed the contractor bogus information based on the code they are familiar with.

That is a primary reason I support the endorsements offered by AWS. At least then, I have some assurance the inspector has a "basic" knowledge of the appropriate code. It doesn't mean the individual is an "expert", but at least he or she can navigate the applicable code and should have some knowledge of where to find the information needed to answer a question or two.

By SCOTTN

Date 04-28-2014 19:42

It may be different in other parts of the country, but in my experience in structural steel, every structural fabricator I've worked for didn't accept welder certs from other companies. Regardless that D1.1 allows previous qualifications that were properly documented, we have always tested potential applicants regardless of any previous qualification, and previous qualifications were never submitted to an EOR because it was not an option.

I find "mail in" certs a little questionable. Maybe I don't understand all the particulars, but what's to stop someone else from actually taking the test for another welder?

And as prestigious as it may be, I find the Princeton lawn mower deck cert a little questionable as well. I've heard that it actually takes two Princeton students to weld a lawn mower deck. One to mix the martini’s and the other one to call for a welder. That may explain why a weld broke on my lawn mower deck. My wife kept hinting to me that I need to get it fixed, but I always had other priorities, like working on my truck, fishing, or watching football. Finally she found a clever way to make her point. I came home one day and found her sitting in the tall grass in the front yard, busily snipping away with a pair of preschool scissors. I watched silently for a few minutes and then went in the house. Several hours later I came back out, handed her a toothbrush and told her as soon as she finishes cutting the grass, go ahead and sweep the driveway. My cast comes off next Tuesday.

By 803056

Date 04-28-2014 22:39

Love your humor Scott!

I always have a smile after reading your posts. A little humor helps us keep our sanity. All too often we tend to take ourselves too seriously.

Best regards - Al

By JTMcC

Date 04-28-2014 23:52

Well Scott I don't (can't) accept papers from other companies. I have to qualify every procedure, for my company, and qualify every welder.

What's a "mail in cert" ?

Your company qualifies welders, how does the customer know who welded what? What's to stop, in the owner/prime contractor/buyer of your structural steels mind, from saying you mailed them in, that someone else took the test for them??

The (3rd party?) QC on the fab, the QC at the fab's unloading off the truck on site, the final product QC, those will tell the tale if your employer is trying to cheat the system, hopefully. If not then blame the structural steel system.
I don't see a bunch of buildings/bridges falling in in the US due to sub standard welds.

In my world an inspector is usually present for every weld, verifying compliance with the procedure, recording pile heats/etc and all additional owner specs and signing off on visual. RT, UT and pressure test takes care of anything that was missed.

MY Princeton papers are solid. My helper on the test was a Varsity Lacross player of high standing from a old school solid family. No martini's were involved, but we did break for tea and crumpets after the first filler. Then we watched a couple episodes of Gilligans Islamd before finishing off the weld.

Now I have those coveted boutique welding papers that are recognized worldwide. Fear me.

The Silly Boy.

What exactly is a "mail in cert"???

By SCOTTN

Date 04-29-2014 15:06

My response regarding mail in certs was to Fit4aking's post of 04-28-2014 10:36, which in part stated....

“I reconnected with the $1,200 per cert place (http://www.earlbeck.com/) and they offer mail-in certifications for out of state clients. They are the company that all local community colleges send students to for welding classes so they work with accredited schools in my area. The "out of state" fee is $375 and they provide the coupons. I can even go pick them up and drop them off just can't use their equipment to take the test.“

I was wondering if anyone else accepts papers from other companies. I just don’t trust them, let alone a mail in cert. We do things like you do…. qualify every procedure and qualify every welder. I definitely wouldn't trust the validity of a "mail in" cert.

“How does your customer know who welded what? What's to stop, in the owner/prime contractor/buyer of your structural steels mind, from saying you mailed them in, that someone else took the test for them??” All very valid questions. I do things by the book and I don’t compromise my integrity for anyone. I don’t know you personally, but from what I know by reading your posts, you are very knowledgeable and I see you as one who goes by the book as well, but a mail in cert just seems a bit on the shady side to me. There's definitely an opportunity there.

“The (3rd party?) QC on the fab, the QC at the fab's unloading off the truck on site, the final product QC, those will tell the tale if your employer is trying to cheat the system, hopefully. If not then blame the structural steel system.”
Good points. If I were a third party inspector out on a jobsite, I would definitely be looking at shop quality, especially after what I’ve seen from other fabricators in the area. As you said, those will tell the tale.

Gilligan’s Island was a great show. Every lesson in life that I’ve learned, I learned by watching Gilligan’s Island. The one thing that always baffled me is how they could feed and clothe everybody using nothing but palm trees and beach sand, but they couldn’t fix a three inch hole in the boat.

Boutique cert? Very rare. Maybe I’ve seen some of your boutique work. I visit Victoria’s Secret at least twice a week to look at welds. The other day I was in there walking around trying to find some welds to look at, and I accidentally bumped into a very attractive sales associate. She asked if she could help me, and I told her my wife’s birthday is coming up and I wanted to buy her a bra. She asked if I knew what size bra she wears and I told her that I had no idea. She suggested that by touching her, it may jog my memory and help me with my wife’s bra size. I wanted to make sure, so I touched her for several minutes before making a decision. Then she asked me if she could further assist me. I thought a matching pair of panties would be nice, so I asked her if she could help me figure out what size panties my wife wears.

By js55

Date 04-29-2014 15:30

They didn't want to fix the hole. They were marooned with Mary Ann.

By SCOTTN

Date 04-29-2014 16:44

That way of thinking was just all part of the master plan, but it goes deeper than that. It’s no coincidence that there are seven deadly sins and there are seven castaways on Gilligan’s Island. Isn't it blatantly obvious that the island is a direct representation of Hell? Think about it. Nobody wants to be there, yet none are able to leave. Further proof is that each one of the characters represents one of the 7 deadly sins:

Ginger represents LUST - she wears skimpy outfits, is obsessed with her looks, and is a borderline nymphomaniac.
Mary Ann represents ENVY - she is jealous of Ginger's beauty.
The Professor represents PRIDE - he's an annoying know it all.
Mr. Howell represents GREED - no explanation needed.
Mrs. Howell represents SLOTH - she has never lifted a finger to help on any of their escape plans.
The Skipper represents two sins: GLUTTONY - again, no explanation needed, and ANGER - he violently hits Gilligan on each show.
This leaves Gilligan. Gilligan is the person who put them there. He prevents them from leaving by foiling all of their escape plots. Also, it’s HIS island. Therefore, Gilligan is Satan. He wears red in every episode. Haven't you ever wondered why none of them ever had to go to the bathroom?

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-29-2014 18:27

>They didn't want to fix the hole. They were marooned with Mary Ann.

Survey says:
Ding!....#1 answer

By JTMcC

Date 04-29-2014 19:06

Got it (SCOTTN).
That "mail in" thing does seem a bit odd.

I do know that a worldwide inspection "chain" (at least they used to) issued 3rd party stamped papers on welders for several years after the testing company sent in either coupons or straps for testing, with an affidavit stating that "that" welder made "that" weld in "that" position according to "that" procedure.
I had customers in the '90's that only accepted quals from "that" particular inspection company. Seemed to me, to leave a lot of room for underhanded qualification malfeasance, but it's their ball game and their rules, we made many hundreds of thousands working for them. Welds were 100% RT, so I guess it worked out in the end. I saw them pull quals and run off welders from other companies if they had visual or RT problems. I guess it worked out fine only because of the close inspection on production welds. They never had weld failures.
As I said, the quals were only an entry fee, the real work had to be sound.
It's not my job, as a bidding company, to correct the specs, it's my job to adhere to the specs. Goofy tho they may be at times.

Gilligan's Island is a great example of post modern high comedy. It goes over most peoples heads.

TSB (That Silly Boy)