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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Photographs
- - By Distilled (**) Date 05-23-2014 17:28
Good day everyone.

CWI's accepting photographs from contractors and that are to be used to perform a welding inspection because the Inspector does not want to climb a structure or perhaps because he doesn't want to have to travel a distance to perform the inspection.  "All welds shall be visually inspected....."   ....is looking at a photo visual enough?

....  ....  ....any thoughts on this??
Parent - - By jstepp (*) Date 05-23-2014 17:32
How does a person take measurements from a photograph?  Weld size?  Undercut?  Etc. Etc.
Parent - - By Distilled (**) Date 05-23-2014 17:35
Lets say that the contractor holds a fillet weld gauge while he takes photos....
Parent - - By jstepp (*) Date 05-23-2014 18:09
Also, D1.1  6.5.2 states "The Inspector shall, at suitable intervals, observe joint preparation, assembly practice, the weld techniques, and performance of each welder, welding operator, and tack welder to ensure that the applicable requirements of this code are met."  Does the inspector plan on doing all of that from photographs?
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 05-23-2014 18:17
Photos can't effectively be used to determine if all the criteria of Table 6.1 is being satisfied.  

Believe it or not, the plant manager where I worked in S.C., who was my supervisor, actually emailed a CWI some pictures of some base plate undercut that I had let go, which met code.  A gage was not used when the pictures were taken.  The CWI looked at the pictures and immediately said "I would reject it", and I was written up for letting it go.  Needless to say, I was extremely upset.  During my written warning, I said, I don't care how good the CWI thinks he is.  There is absolutely no way that he can determine the depth or the frequency of the undercut just by looking at pictures.  I'd also said... get him down here and let him show me that this undercut should be rejected.  The plant manager said "I'm not going to get him down here because I'm not going to take your word over a CWI".  To make a long story short, that's how I ended up in Atlanta.  It was obvious that he wanted me out of there.  Most likely it was because I was trying to make sure that everything that went out the door met job specs and code requirements, while he would continuously override me and let things go that didn't.  The write up for undercut was my final warning and it was the last straw.  I quit my job and I put my trust in God's hands.  Two months later I was offered the QC manager position at Stein Steel in Atlanta.
Parent - By Distilled (**) Date 05-23-2014 18:33
Yah, that's crooked SCOTTN.

I've been a CWI for 13 years, I haven't practiced it professionally as a full-time inspector for the entire duration and actually spent most of it working for a structural steel manufacturer as their Director of Operations and Quality, but this year I opted to make a similar decision as you SCOTTN and take some risk, so I made the leap to go out on my own.  I provide a variety of services; drafting, design for manufacturability, Q.A. services, inspection services and NDT to name a few.  I get the opportunity to meet a wide variety of people at different levels and either I'm way out in left field or the intentions of the code(s) are being misinterpreted or completely bypassed by a fair number of people at all levels.   What I've been coming across as what contractors are telling me is; "Standard practice now".  I'm just shocked that people are getting away with some of this stuff....or it's possible that I'm just a hard-nosed inspector that likes things "too right" - I don't know.

CJP and PJP welds with nothing more than final visual inspections.  Inspections via photographs.  Welding contractors hiring their own "3rd party" inspectors.  Stuff like that... I mean one could argue that a "good" welder doesn't need an inspector over his shoulder when he preps and welds a PJP, I get it, but the codes are in place for a reason.

I was with a Construction Manager the other day he represents a company that owns Telecom structures and they lease out vertical real estate for carriers.  I was just tagging along, he's a friend of mine, and on the way to the project we were talking about contractors hiring their own inspectors and I was explaining the conflict of interest that it presents.  He kind of blew it off and thought I was being super-critical or just trying to get myself some more work.  We get onsite and we all get to talking and the installer/welding contractor says; "Yep, I prefer to hire my own inspectors, when they are on my payroll they tend to see things my way!"  He said; "If they want to get paid the job better get done right!?"

I just laughed as I saw my buddy's eyes roll back in his head and his chin drop.  LOL.
Parent - - By rjtinsp (*) Date 05-23-2014 18:23
No way. His employer should send out someone willing to do the job.

Ramon
Parent - - By Distilled (**) Date 05-23-2014 18:36
Well in one case the Inspector is the Owner of the company.... in others I think that the ownership is suggesting the use of pictures; climbing probably isn't covered in their worker's comp insurance.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-23-2014 18:45
.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-23-2014 18:55 Edited 05-23-2014 19:00
What a lame excuse regarding the climbing and all of the other excuses being used... And do these clowns even know what TPI (Third Party? Inspection) really means?
If I came across that sort of crap going on I would inform Joe Kane who I believe is still on the AWS certification committee and see if there's cause to strip the CWI's of their certs.:eek::twisted::grin::smile::lol::wink::cool:

Great story Scott! If they only knew what sort of mistake they made letting you leave them!:eek::lol::yell::lol::yell::lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 05-23-2014 19:10
They took a lot away from my family and I, but they didn't get my integrity.  I don't compromise that for anything or anybody.
Parent - By Distilled (**) Date 05-23-2014 19:38
Well ssbn727 that's why I said; "3rd Party" in quotations - - the term is used loosely.  The bottom line is that people just don't understand the inspection sections of the code(s), be it AWS, IBC, RBC, etc.  They also get lost in what are considered secondary structures (not "Occupied" buildings") I think even many on the Engineering/Architect side are confused they know the design portion, but not the quality assurance side, so they just list every code in existence on their general notes pages and say something like; "All activities shall be in compliance with the following codes: a, b, c, d, e, f, g........" and so on so that they are covered.

The problem here is that this is leaving Owners, Generals, and Subs to try to decipher this stuff like; 3rd Party, Continuous or Periodic Inspections, Special Inspections, etc.  On a good day they call their Client, who then calls their Client, who then calls theirs, and maybe at some point someone actually consults a Professional, but too often the Sub calls the General and rather than say; "I don't know" they just guess or tell the Sub to just take care of it and to hire an Inspector and because no one knows any different those reports all make it to someone who writes a final summary that says; "To the best of my knowledge the work was done in compliance with the contract drawings and specification." ....or "I kind of take responsibility."  ...which then apparently leads to final acceptance.

I have two primary issues; first is that I've got (many of us do) a lot of time and money invested in Certifications/Credentials and besides the aforementioned there are many instances where inspections are just flat being skipped or waived when they shouldn't be and I can't figure out how it gets all the way through the Building Officials.  Second is that we're not talking about little trinkets here.  In the Telecom industry it could be towers hundreds of feet tall, next to a freeway, with a hundred pieces of steel hanging off of them.  "Occupied" or not we better not have anything fail and fall.

I don't want to stir up a hornets nest and I think the proper approach is education, which I'm working on as I get access to people, but some of this stuff like 'photo inspections' is just ass-o-nine and I have a real strong issue with contractors hiring their own inspectors as well.

Anyway - thanks for the replies guys, I just wanted to get some other opinions on that photo stuff, it sounds like you all hold the same opinion I do.
Parent - By Duke (***) Date 06-17-2014 12:26
The company I work for has written procedure for VT to include inspection from 18" away... that's eyeballs, not a camera.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-23-2014 19:07
It is back to the 10/80/10 rule. That inspector is a member of the "lower 10%" that should be in a different line of work.

While he could not be charged with a code of ethics violation for being stupid, he is not performing his job or meeting his obligations to the public. I'm sure his conduct wasn't limited to that isolated case. it would not be surprising to see "Anything Goes for a Buck" as their corporate slogan.

A number of years ago I had a contractor bring in a TPI from another state to counter my findings. At a job meeting attended by the owner, general contractor, fabricator, and erector, he told the group that he didn't see any "bad" welds. To say his statement was in contrast to my finding (90% of the welds were deficient) would be an understatement. When I questioned him, he admitted that his comment was based on what he could see from the ground, some 30 feet from the welds in question.

The welds did get repaired.

Al
Parent - - By Distilled (**) Date 05-23-2014 19:41
Hah!  Nice.  Well I aim to make some changes in my area, carefully mind you, but if things don't change before you know it Welder's will be certifying themselves and inspecting their own welds!  LOL
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-31-2014 22:22
A long time friend of ours runs a company doing mods to communication towers.  Many are over 500' as the ones Shawn has posted pics of his work on.  We were asked about the process that other contractors were using as to taking pictures to have the welding inspected.  Most CWI's are not climbing rated.  Standard fall protection is below par for this work.  Just ask Shawn.  He even posted some info once about some of his equipment. 

Anyway, it is a practice that appears widely accepted within that industry.  The pics go to the engineer for final approval but usually go to some buddy first to make sure they think it will pass muster.  We actually sent my son out there to take a first hand look plus qualify/certify some of his welders.  The welders failed and so did the welds. 

As Al points out, these things will go on as long as we are satisfied to just make our wages and don't take our personal time to go to various meetings and effect change; AWS Section meetings, ASNT local meetings, local Contractors Assoc meetings, county and city supervisor meetings, etc.  Go, get involved, educate others. 

Just my two tin pennies worth.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-23-2014 20:24
You mentioned the need for educating the design professional. That is a good point.

Building officials and engineers generally need continuing education credits, professional development hours, etc. to maintain their credentials as a building official or as a P.E. An engineer in my area conducts weekly seminars covering subjects of interest to building officials, inspectors, contractors, and design professionals. I typically participate, as a speaker, once or twice a year. My presentations are generally on the subjects of weld design, welding inspections, structural failures, etc. I did a seminar a couple of weeks ago on the subject of structural failures. I built a small truss to represent an open web joist member using 1/8 inch diameter GTAW filler rod. I had the engineer and a professor hang gallon jugs of water from the lower chord as I did my presentation. Beforehand, I drew a grid on the easel with each grid representing the number of gallons of water the truss would support before failing. The winner(s) would get to attend a seminar of their choice at no cost. It kept the crowd's interest and it was the seed for many good questions from the audience.

If offered the opportunity, participate, either as an attendee to help build your network or as a speaker to "spread the word."

I've been called the "Welding Nazi," but I have also been called the "Welding Evangelists." The latter is preferable.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By maxilimiano (**) Date 06-24-2014 11:39
Dear All

Sorry if this is very-very late.

Inspector Shall Satisfy Himself.

Regards
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 13:53
I still prefer the company of my wife, but each to his own Max.

Best regards - Al :cool:
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 06-25-2014 15:42
Use KUKU BIMA max:lol::lol::yell:
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Photographs

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