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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Use of grinder during welder qualification
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Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-23-2014 13:53
I find standards that prohibit welding are the easiest to follow! Maybe I should look this WABO standard up!
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 06-24-2014 09:19
If the welder was not allowed to use the grinder during the performance test, then the Inspector taking the CWI exam must not be allowed to use an eraser too:yell:

~Joey~
Parent - - By maxilimiano (**) Date 06-24-2014 11:34
Dear All

We should back to the purpose of the test...We make test to know if welder can weld in real condition (storage tank, strucktur, vessel).
Code is just guidance for Engineering.
So, your engineering must make wps for welder test more detail based on real condition.

I am sorry if I made mistake
Regards
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 06-24-2014 11:42
Joey may be on to something with this eraser thing, but I think it's important to point out that there has been a lot of debate on whether the correct term for it is eraser or rubber.  Either way, at the end of the day if either one fails you're left with a mistake.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-24-2014 11:43
Yes Max !

Very good words
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-24-2014 12:11
Joey,
Good point. Perfect the first time or hit the road.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-24-2014 23:06
Yes, and since we are after perfection, from now on it's 100% on the exams or hit the road.  No room for the slightest mistake with public safety at stake.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 06:38
And they tell me that I'm dreaming.:roll::roll::roll::grin::lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-25-2014 23:43
:lol:
Parent - - By Quality0537 (*) Date 07-10-2014 00:57
Ok guys,  so reading through this very informative thread has helped me ease up a bit on my personal belief about grinders during tests - to D1.1.

Short of a customer,  EOR or some other stated requirement I no longer have any objection to a grinder being used during a welder qualification test, provided it is for light grinding of the profile or cleaning of individual passes. However - I also believe that it should not be used to remove a string of porosity or other defects that can be supported as rejectable under visual examination or visual criteria. After all - rejectable - means reject or fail - if you repair or remove the defect afterwards by some grinding or other means - it does not negate the fact that it had been a "fail" upon earlier inspection earlier.

Well kind of stretching that a bit - I guess I could feel comfortable in recording the first test as a fail , allow the grinding to remove recorded and documented rejectable defects and proceed with an immediate retest, all supportable in D1.1/
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 07-10-2014 12:02
"if you repair or remove the defect afterwards by some grinding or other means - it does not negate the fact that it had been a "fail" upon earlier inspection earlier"

If it had been a fail upon earlier (initial) inspection, for me, the qualification test at that point is over and there would not be an opportunity to go back and bring it into compliance.  Once the welder tells me it's finished, if it doesn't meet visual criteria requirements, the welder fails.  My only input is prior to the test when I tell the welder that if it doesn't meet the visual requirements of D1.1, I have to reject it.  I only do this because some newly hired and experienced welders either come from other backgrounds and are not familiar with D1.1 visual requirements, or they come from a structural shop where they were not fully held to meeting visual quality criteria.  They were basically told to just weld it and get it out the door.  When this is the case, I take a minute to explain to them that the weld must pass visual before I can do the bend test, and then I go over the visual criteria.    
 
I don't have a problem with a welder using a grinder to remove a string of rejectable porosity as long is it's done before the welder tells me he's finished.
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 07-10-2014 12:22
SCOTTN you are right in saying that there are welder that have not ever seen a D1.1 book and it is good that you explain to them what you are talking about. I was one of those welders that had never seen a code book or standard of any kind up to 10 years ago. They brought me everything that was needed to weld a job and I never ask any question. I think it good in you to take the time and effort to help.

                             M.G.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-10-2014 13:18
Scott,
That is the key. Prior to the welder's release.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-10-2014 17:46
I find it hard to justify from any of the applicable code in D1.1 to fail a welder in the middle of the test because he ground out any amount of discontinuities providing the WPS, job specs, and customer description of what he wants me to accomplish do not restrict the use of grinders for testing. 

That is indeed "stretching it a bit". 

Test is conducted outside or with shop doors open, gust of wind comes up and blows gas shield away, boom, porosity in the weld and you are going to disqualify them for having the observance to remove it and then proceed with the test.  That is exactly what I want to see, responsibility in doing their own QC without me saying anything and making a correct weld. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 07-11-2014 11:46
Exactly.  My experience has been that many incoming welders simply don't know the code with regard to what is acceptable and what is not, and they just need to be shown.  A few of them know, most of them don't.  Years ago this actually surprised me... that supposedly structural welders came in for a test and didn't know what a WPS was, didn't know the tolerances for porosity, undercut, undersize weld, etc., or didn't know how to use a fillet gage.  All very basic things that a structural welder should know.  I've since gotten used to it and have taken the time to help them out and shown them myself.  I firmly believe that quality should be built into the product, not inspected into it, and that's what I continue to push for.  If they don't know, I show them, and then hold them accountable afterwards.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-11-2014 19:28
Some very interesting interpretations of  code going on here! Is this how it is in the US generally?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-14-2014 12:11 Edited 07-14-2014 12:18
I think it has nothing to do with the U.S.

People are people and they like to do what they want... 

People like to "interpret" things that require only obedience....

People like to "memorize" things that should be referenced each usage...

People prefer to be "fair" rather than being just.

I've seen this with EN's just as often as American and Canadian standards.

I've fallen into each of these traps and think of myself as a pretty experienced fella...

The U.S. gets it done pretty much the same way as the Euros...(cause people are people)  We just have 43 fewer levels of bureaucrats than ISO/EN's
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-14-2014 12:18
Good analysis Lar :wink:
Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / Use of grinder during welder qualification
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