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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Wrong Weld Wire Used
- - By justin.aulik Date 06-20-2014 21:20
This doesn't happen often but when it does its quite costly.. Does anyone have a fool proof trick to guarantee or at least improve the odds that employees will use the correct weld wire when they are supposed to? 

Thank you!!

-Justin Aulik
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-20-2014 22:35
No such thing as 'FOOL PROOF'!! 

As Al says, you can cure ignorance but there is no cure for STUPID (emphasis mine). 

Personally, check out the fullest extent of the definition of the word- CARELESSNESS ( They could CARE  LESS ) because it usually applies as well as the large application of stupid is as stupid does.

BUT, that is where proper procedures, training, floor leaders, and QC personnel come in and can save a lot of grief later.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-21-2014 00:01
Only buy the correct wire and have no other type in stock:grin:
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 06-21-2014 01:21
Don't try to make it Idiot Proof, you only make smarter Idiots. Make it worthwhile for people to care, pride in their work and monetary incentive go a long way.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 06-21-2014 11:17
Like most have already said, assign a leader to confirm the correct filler is being used/pulled or eliminate the idiots from pulling it themselves and have the foreman do it. The welder(s) apparently didn't know their job specs or did not care. Finding out why they didn't care or why they used the wrong filler, lack of education? Didn't care? Don't want a job?? Then once that is established educate them or send them packing. Even if you have a foreman handing out materials it would be nice to know that the guy using the materials actually knows what he needs. Even a foreman can make a mistake so having a welder that knows he is supposed to use ER-70S and not innershield according to the specs for this job is another good backup.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 06-21-2014 14:58
I have a few ideas.

1) Use Welding Procedures. Not just for handing out to the inspectors. Provide them to welders and train them on what the variables mean and what the ranges are.

2) Use job travelers or other documentation for assemblies or fabricated items that may have more than one WPS on the assembly.

3) Encourage welders to take the time to verify their setup before starting work on anything.

4) Provide supervisors of welding with the knowledge they need to verify things are being done properly.

5) Make sure all wires are properly identified. Wire spools sometimes have the tags tear. Plastic Spools sometimes have the stickers fall off. If you can't see the AWS classification and you use more than one classification of wire, don't use it.

I have welded one or two with the wrong filler metal while working under what I thought was one of the best QC systems ever. However there are some occasions when the human factor becomes difficult to control.

Gerald Austin
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-24-2014 18:14
In addition to what Gerald suggests I also have a checklist for the operators to fill out at each shift/operator and part change. this document is the audited regularly. helps keep everybody on thier toes.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-23-2014 12:46
Justin,
One of the best ways I have found and have used often is color coding imposed at receipt inspection. You color code the materials and you color code the wire (for GTAW and SMAW you can color code tubes and portable ovens. Not only does this help the welders it can be readily inspected from a distance by anybody.
Do not go to the ASTM system. Its too complicated. Make your own. Keep it simple, one or two colors only, and only apply it to common alloys with which you work. The more unusual alloys you can impose greater strictures without effecting production too severely.
Parent - - By PhilThomas (**) Date 07-10-2014 19:29
I would caution that any time a color coding scheme is used...for welding electrodes, steel, or anything else, you had better be careful to have each employee tested for color blindness!
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 07-10-2014 19:47
Phil,
:smile:   This is true.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 07-12-2014 08:30
Good point PhilThomas , on the eye exam.
Something like 12%(?) of men are color blind and many either do not know it or are embarrassed to admit it.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-21-2014 01:44
Allow only one electrode classification in the weld booth at any one time.

Allowing the welder to store more than one electrode classification in the booth is an invitation for disaster.

When the welder pulls filler metal from stock, have a second set of eyes check that it is the correct classification. Some companies use a chit system that requires the foreman to cosign the form and a different individual dispenses the correct filler metal classification to the welder. An alternate system would require the foreman or lead welder to check that the proper classification is pulled from stock by the welder.

You can make any system idiot proof, but you can't make the system damn idiot proof.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 06-21-2014 14:58
The best way to avoid these problems is by hiring motivated and qualified personnel in sufficient numbers. I don't know where this occurs anymore, but it's a pretty good system.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-21-2014 17:22
"Some companies use a chit system that requires the foreman to cosign the form and a different individual dispenses the correct filler metal classification to the welder. An alternate system would require the foreman or lead welder to check that the proper classification is pulled from stock by the welder."

Are you referring to EB's (General Dynamics Electric Boat) system? I ask this because back in the day when I was crawling around missile tubes, reactor compartments, engine rooms and main ballast tanks up in "Rotten" Groton, CT they had that same sort of system implemented and like you said before... "You can make any system idiot proof, but you can't make the system damn idiot proof."

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-22-2014 13:09
Good morning Henry;

I wasn't referring to EB's system. I encounter the chit system on several large powerhouse projects where there were multiple trades welding a variety of base metals. On each project there were a couple of people that controlled the electrodes to ensure they were stored properly, exposure times were limited, etc.

Welders had portable (10 pound) electrode ovens that they carried to the site. Woe to the welder that didn't have the electrode oven (quiver to our Canadian and European friends) plugged in to a live receptacle. Site inspectors would check the ovens to see they were on. The chit was attached to the oven and listed the time they were handed out, the classification, and the job they were to be used on. There better not be a different electrode classification in the "can."

They fired one of my partners because he used a "stub" to complete a short length of weld. The reason was that we were told not to use an electrode that wasn't pulled from the electrode oven because there were no controls on the exposure time for the discards. True enough.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-24-2014 05:22
Okay but, are you familiar with EB's method of tracking filler metal used by the welders back in the day and I say this because I don't know what method they're using these days?

It was a crude system to say the least and they didn't use the portable electrode ovens with SMAW E8018 or E11018...
Nonetheless, it did work! For example: At the beginning of each shift the welders gather around their designated rally location within the yard which was usually @ or very near one of the entrances on the boat their foreman was assigned to... From that location the foremen passed out what we called chits which were approximately 3"X5" in triplicate (Foreman keeping 1 copy) which included the job # and filler metal designation required as well as the location of the job usually by the frame # and deck level either port or starboard, aft or, forward of the primary compartment or within it also... Unless one was assigned to the superstructure or outside somewhere on the hull itself or working with the riggers welding pad eyes to equipment that was ready to be installed in the boat... The best gig was being assigned to any one of the fabricating shops throughout the yard where it was all gravy work...:grin::cool:

Once you were given your work chit, you would then go to the designated tool/supply shack you were working from that knew ahead of time that you would be assigned to them... Usually there were one or two people working in the shack so you handed them the chit and if the process was SMAW, they would load up a custom wooden dual compartment rod carrier with one compartment used to hold the fresh filler as I used to call it, and the other compartment used to collect the stubs which they darn sure checked to make sure you had the correct amount when you came back to either refill, or to turn in what was left of the 1 to 5 lbs. of electrodes given to you each trip you went to the tool shack for... The maximum amount one could get each trip of any low hydrogen SMAW electrodes was 5 lbs... And the maximum time allowed for the electrodes to be exposed was 4 hours so if you still had electrodes left over in your container just before the 4 hour mark, you were expected to stop what you were working on and go return whatever rod that was left over before the 4 hour limit...

Your foremen kept track of the time from radio comm from the tool shack relaying the exact time any of his/her welders were given the lo hi electrodes, and they would remind you to go to the shack if they noticed you were still welding @ your assigned location... At the end of the shift you would hand in your copy of the paper chit back to your foreman and if the job was incomplete, he/she would give you back the same chit the next day and if you were pulled off the job for whatever reason, an entirely new supply chit had to be written up for that specific job for whoever else took your place... Similar procedures were used in many of the new construction, and maintenance shutdown sites of various power plants I worked at throughout the East coast...

The only time one would not have to leave the boat in order to get filler metal or tools was early in the construction process of building those boats when they had ample room to locate the rod ovens inside the boat... But once the equipment started being installed the ovens were taken off the boats and one had to take anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes just to refill depending on the location they were assigned... An imperfect system that could be exploited if one wanted to but for the most part it wasn't... And if anyone violated the procedures, they would be written up the 1st time followed by a one day suspension if they repeated doing so again... And if they continued to disregard procedures, they were suspended for 1 week followed by termination if they were dumb enough or intentionally wanted to be fired from EB for whatever reason... The only reason why they had to gradually discipline the welders for each infraction was because of the MTC (Metal Trades Council) which were most of the unions representing the labor in the shipyard otherwise they would have been run off the 1st time...

Now if you needed a peening hammer, a right angle grinder or any other pneumatic tool that you didn't have in your toolbox, or needed a welding mirror, a carbon arc gouging torch or anything else you needed to borrow for the job...Depending on how many were required, you had to give the tool shack whatever number of brass tool chits you were initially given to use once you passed your probationary period of employment @ the yard, and if you wanted your chits back, you had to return the tool you borrowed no excuses... If you needed tempil crayons, lens, brushes, EB green tape, etc., you were given a triplicate paper supply chit and the tool shack would've filled the order for you. If you didn't have your temp sticks in your possession while you were working either in or outside the boat, you would be immediately written up followed by a similar  progression of discipline I described earlier and if one of the Navy brass caught you without your temp sticks, you would be automatically suspended for a week with no pay... If you were caught with your "pants down" as we used to call it by "The Father of the Nuclear Navy" the late Rear Admiral Hymie Rickover R.I.P., you were escorted out the gate never to return and believe me he had the clout to do just that! 

Yes indeed! Ole Hymie was one tough little fella who wasn't afraid to chop anyone down to his size, and then let them know in no uncertain terms that he either was happy with the work, or just plain disgusted with what was going on in the yard because of the incompetent supervision and lack of discipline... And you would know fairly soon after one of his many visits as to whether or not he was one of the two by whether or not altered or new procedures were being implemented shortly thereafter... If you were around where he would visit and was in a happy mood, he would be very jovial and grateful for all of the good work that was going on and he went around to everyone expressing his appreciation for our efforts and that's the main reason why in my book, he definitely earned my respect... Even though he promoted fear for their jobs to all of the supervision once they knew he was in the yard and they took it out on us afterwards, it was soooo darn funny to witness them freak out and stumble over each other...:lol::yell::lol::yell: Because when he came to do a unannounced inspection, you knew for sure just from the look in all of managements faces who were not happy at all when Hymie stopped by... Sort of like the faces of impending doom.:eek::roll::twisted::grin::lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-24-2014 17:49
No, I never had to deal with EB's system. However, a similar system was in place at the nuclear sites I worked on.

Al
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 06-25-2014 02:08
Good story there Henry........Like hearing them shipyard stories from New England, Newport News, etc.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 06-25-2014 18:07
Brings back memories of the '70-80's in the refineries with Brown & Root (Baytown, TX & Boute, LA) and Daniels International (Borger, TX).

We actually clocked in by walking thru the guard/gate shack where we were issured our piece of 1 1/2" dia round brass with stamped ID number.  That brass was given to the tool room and placed on one of hundreds of pegs and you were issued whatever tools you needed for the day.  Each tool had an assigned number on a paper, round "chit" and placed under your brass.  Same was used for issuing rod except we did have electric rod caddies.  We did have to account for all rod stubs as the number of stick rods was counted as issued.  On one occassion I did get a 3 day suspension for having my rod caddy unplugged while using the cord for my extra wire wheel grinder.

During or end of day you returned all tools in order to get your brass.  If you had checked out a chain fall that was still in use you had to have a written note from your Foreman in order to get your brass back.  End of you shift you hauled ass to go home by passing thru the gate shack and tossed your brass into a large barrel.  No computers or time clocks at the time.  They had guard shack girls that had to go through all that brass and hang them back up on numbered pegs and then the time keeper recorded your time for that day.  Day shift manpower was over 1,500 workers.  That's alotta chit...!

Thanks for reminding me of chit, Henry.

QCRobert
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 18:37
We started out talking weld wire now we're talking chit.
Parent - - By qcrobert (***) Date 06-25-2014 18:50
It's inevitable...:wink:
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 06-25-2014 20:37
Chit happens....
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-11-2014 09:18
"No chit sherlock!":smile::grin::lol::twisted::surprised::yell::lol::yell::lol::yell::lol::cool:
Parent - By Bill M (***) Date 07-25-2014 20:07
If you make it idiot proof....they will make a better idiot
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 06-26-2014 01:47
Worked on a paper mill water treatment project for B E and K back in the early 80 S. Same  system, brass in and brass out. My pipe fitter and one of his buddy's built a small condo under the tool trailer and stock trailers out of cardboard and pallets. During an afternoon siesta he slept through brass out and got caught climbing the fence to get back to his room. He kept his job but not for long. When he told me the next day, I couldn't stop laughing.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Wrong Weld Wire Used

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