D1.1 Symbol Help

Date 07-22-2014 21:45 Edited 07-22-2014 21:47

Double bevel with reinforcing fillets.

The bevels are 1/2 inch deep on each side. Complete joint penetration is required. Weld one side, i.e., fill the bevel flush. Back gouge the opposite side to sound metal, back weld. Add the reinforcing fillets when convenient. I would weld the bevels, weld reinforcing fillet on the first side, then the second side.

Opinion: Depth of the back gouge on the second side: 5/8 inch minimum. Check the BG with MT to verify depth is sufficient to reach sound metal.

Word of caution: Check your filler metal classification is prequalified. Check the footnote at the end of table 3.1 to verify the specific electrode classification is prequalified without stress relief.

Best regards - Al

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-23-2014 02:21

Thanks Al and Brent!

I feel stupid for asking this, guess somehow I feel I should know or have figured it out. My "interpretation" (LOL) and trying to picture this in my head. Looking at the narrow end of the plate I basically need to bevel from dead center on the plate out, on both sides, figuring this is 1/2" on the size specified. With the plate standing vertical on this double bevel how high off of the base metal should the beveled edges go up on the stiffener plate? Is it beveled just enough to get a welding rod in there to penetrate the root?

I'm following you on the weld for the most part. Fill in the bevel on one side, flush, then add a 3/16" at the base for cosmetic reasons apparently. Back gouging 5/8" essentially I will be gouging back into the weld that I have already deposited, about 1/8" or so, correct? Then cleaning, etc., then welding out the opposite side until flush, then throwing on the 3/16" eyeliner?

I attached a little drawing, guess the only dimension I am still questioning is, Dimension "clueless", LoL!!

Brent and Al, thanks so much for the education and help!!

Shawn

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-23-2014 04:09

Shawn,

First, it isn't for 'cosmetics'. It is for strength and distribution of forces/stresses.

Second, you need to look at D1.1 Clause 3. Figure 3.4 TC-U5b.

Now, don't ask me why I'm feeling so generous, I must like you :lol:

. So, the root opening can be from '0' to 3/16" and the bevel angle can be from 40-55°. That is for SMAW with a double bevel.

There are some other figures that could apply, but they are all the same for opening and bevel angle so that should be close enough for your usage.

Now, at a 45° bevel, if it is 1/2" deep that means it will be 1/2" 'high' (the dimension up from the other plate or edge of the plate with the bevel, your question/clueless dimension).

That is why Al said you will need to go deeper on the backgouge to get to clean material. With the Z-loss factor you will only get about 3/8" deep with your first weld with SMAW. Even at an angle that would widen it more you won't get all the way and you add more heat, stress, and other negatives into the joint besides more weld metal, time, and cost.

Hope that helps.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-23-2014 04:59 Edited 07-23-2014 05:27

Thanks a ton Brent!! :cool:

That makes sense about the back gouging as well, didn't think about penetration thru the bevel to the other side, how far it would get so I'm on board now!

Filling out hoards of paperwork and about half blind right now with D1.1 open in another window looking. I will check out that section, much appreciated!!

Shawn

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-23-2014 03:45

One more note Al,

Looking over the requirements for the welding they are only calling out a visual inspection by a CWI. Leaves a lot on the ethical side of the guy doing the work it seems.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-22-2014 22:58

Shawn,

I agree with Al. Just wanted to give you some added info.

IF they had put a weld size in parenthesis so it looked thus: 1/2 (3/8), then you would be dealing with a PJP with a Z-loss factored in for the root of the bevel on each side.

But, as they give you a bevel size with no weld size it is inferred to be CJP according to both D1.1 and A2.4. In support of that position is a new official interpretation that was just published. While not directly addressing this question, the question and answer provided clearly bring us back to this type of situation and the stand many of us have taken for years about welding symbols with no sizes requiring CJP welds.

Now, to add to Al's cautions, more than likely you are going to have a reinforcing fillet weld with at least one leg that is larger than 3/16". I mean really, a 3/16" fillet weld over a groove weld that is in a 1/2" bevel. But, as long as it is flush with no undercut or underfill on up the one leg so that a 3/16" fillet gauge is properly indicating the presence of a 3/16" leg on both sides it is good. Just beware how you finish that off so the inspector doesn't try to make you add additional material later.

Good luck on the job.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By 803056

Date 07-23-2014 11:58

Brent, it isn't Z-loss. This isn't a skewed T-joint. It is simply incomplete fusion to the root. It is no different than incomplete fusion to the root of a fillet weld.

If you look at the figures for prequalified grooves (Figures 3.3), the maximum weld size for bevel angles of less than 60 degrees is 1/8 inch less than the depth of the bevel (per side).

I know you are very specific in your use and application of the code. I would hate to see the term Z-loss show up in an inspection report in relation to this situation. I agree that the situation is similar to the situation encountered with skewed T-joints. However, it is similar to how certain terms are used with certain weld types. An example is the "throat" dimension. For fifty years the throat was used to define the joint penetration of a groove weld as well as the shortest distance from the root to the face of a fillet weld. Now, with changing times, the term "throat" is limited to fillet welds. Groove welds; the term "Throat" has no application.

Regarding the 1/2 inch dimension, it is the depth of the bevel, not the width of the resulting groove.

Best regards - Al

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-23-2014 16:02 Edited 07-23-2014 16:41

Sorry about that Al and Shawn,

Al is of course correct, wrong term and no application.

Only reason I referenced the 'width' of the resulting groove was because Shawn had asked. And, I think he thought the bevel would only be 3/16" high on that side since that was the size of the fillet weld being required and was thinking 'how do I get a weld in such a tight area?'. I was pointing out the approximate dimension based upon the bevel angle used. Then, making reference to the resulting groove weld which would need to be accomplished prior to the smaller fillet weld required by his drawing. But, Shawn, it is the bevel angle and the 'depth' of bevel which are specifically addressed, the other is a natural outcome of the first two.

Now, I do see it as different though from the root of a fillet weld as incomplete penetration to the 'bottom' of this joint would be most unusual whereas the penetration to the root of a fillet weld is quite normal (by properly qualified welders). This is all due to the angle where the weld is being applied and how it restricts and inhibits the melting of base materials and flowing of molten weld pool into the joint down at the root.

Not that it can't be done. If the fit up were done allowing the maximum root opening instead of a '0' opening and smaller electrodes were run for the first pass at the top end of allowable amperage rates it is entirely possible. But most of the time this particular application is going to be fit up with a '0' root opening. With a double bevel on a 1" plate it would be almost impossible to get full penetration from the first side and especially for engineering it cannot be depended on.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-23-2014 16:29

Shawn,

Another note, if you have ever done a CJP moment connection on the bottom flange of a beam and had to remove the backing and then weld a 5/16" fillet weld to cover that area in the overhead position you know that a good many times it will take a fillet weld, or multiple passes, that equal greater than 5/16". Similar to your situation though not identical. Here's how for those who will resist the example: In your case it is possible to completely fill the groove weld with a 'flat' weld surface. But I have seldom seen it done. It will almost always have a slope that will fill your need for a 3/16" fillet. But, if the welder stops short of good fill at the 'top' of the groove weld bevel then you still have area to fill which will be accomplished when completing the fillet weld.

All work done properly, you can have a weld that is relatively flat for finish, even in the horizontal position, and then add only one pass to get your 3/16" fillet.

Second, and more common, the welder is going to finish the groove weld in the horizontal position (which is what you are in with the weld and application in question) with the bottom leg coming out from the surface of the gusset by a distance at least equal to your 3/16" fillet. It will then slope upward with an unequal leg length to get to the 'top' of the bevel groove and cover so there is no undercut or underfill. No need to ADD a 3/16 fillet as the fullness required is already there. No need to grind flush and then reweld to make it look exactly a certain way. Just so the finished weld has the equivalent of a 3/16" fillet weld beyond the flush surface of a fully filled groove weld.

Hope I didn't confuse the issue.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By 46.00

Date 07-25-2014 02:30

Not really related to your post, think Al has answered that, more of a warning to you and anyone else who prints screenshots on any internet forums!
Be careful what you include in the picture! You would not believe the amount of information you are giving away to potential hackers or malware spammers!? Do you realise what I have learnt about you just from one simple screenshot? I doubt that you do! Probably enough to hack your dropbox account on the HP laptop you are using in the USA, maybe even the smart phone you used to take the picture and save as a PDF and then use your computer to convert to an office or word 2007 file! Lets be careful!

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 07-25-2014 11:23

Actually, didn't use the smart phone to take the picture, it's a file, on the hp laptop. I am in the USA, they can look that up on my website, if they want they could likely find my address with my name at said website. Thanks to the internet you can look up all kinds of stuff about me just from my name, unlike Europe which actually has a law. Knowing I have drop box is like knowing I own a Ford. If they want to hack my dropbox and steal a bunch of pictures taken from a few hundred feet off the ground then they will figure out that they have wasted their time on their own. :-)

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-24-2014 02:24 Edited 07-24-2014 02:27

Bingo!! At least for me.

Gotta get me something for doing sketches. Probably already have something, just don't know how to use it.

Thanks Al, again.

110-115° here in downtown Phoenix, depending on whose thermometer you want to believe. Tried to get them to turn the heat up a little more so we wouldn't have to preheat any of this 2 1/4" plate. :lol:

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By 803056

Date 07-24-2014 14:21

How does one work in such temperatures?

I walked out of the building I was teaching in to go to my car and it was like opening the door to the oven!

I feel sorry for any poor SOB that has to do manual labor or weld in temperatures over 70 degrees. I used to hate hot summer days when I was working as an Ironworker and the temperature was only in the eighties!

Al

By SCOTTN

Date 07-24-2014 15:00

Just the other day I saw a car with a dog in the back and all the windows were rolled up. That was absolutely disgraceful that someone would leave an animal that way. He was panting and he looked extremely thirsty. All the doors were locked, so I took it upon myself to smash one of the windows and give him a drink from my water bottle. I felt a bit guilty about smashing the window because those convertibles aren't cheap. But the animals welfare comes first.

By 803056

Date 07-24-2014 15:12

Scott, I never read one of your posts without laughing. You have a gift that is rare.

Have you considered writing for Inspection Trends? I think a short quip in every issue would be enjoyed by everyone. I would be happy to put in a good word for you.

Best regards - Al

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-24-2014 16:20

I second that!! :lol:

My only regret would be that they don't come out often enough.

Now, last night was over 110°. Phoenix often gets highs over 120° in the summer. These guys are wearing their jackets and preheating 2 1/4" steel to over 150° (not that it needs much if sitting in the sunlight) and then working in a three sided box just over 2' wide and 3' tall by 40' long welding 3/8" fillet welds on stiffener plates. When doing the third side the box has two vertical sides and the bottom so they are 'INSIDE'. When a breeze is blowing, instead of feeling good, it feels like you entered a blast furnace. Low humidity' 3-10%, is no consolation at those temps and with all the other factors.

Glad it's them and I just have to watch. :confused:

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 07-24-2014 16:40 Edited 07-24-2014 17:13

Do they have a fire watch by any chance who constantly checks to make sure they're not dehydrated or worse?

Here's a suggestion... Have you seen those "cool vests" they have advertised?

Btw, that reminds me of the time I was welding inside a forward main ballast tank which is part of a submarine... Just about everything in there is HY-80 or better and starting from 1" T up to 31/2" T and preheated to a minimum of 200 degrees F...

One cannot go in there and work without an air fed full faced respirator, and one cannot work in there without a fire watch nearby to constantly check to make sure that the person inside is okay... Just crawling around in there, one had to have knee-pads and leather gloves on because the metal everywhere inside was too hot to navigate without them...

When one of the crew passed out on a different shift, they changed the time exposure to 20 minutes in and ten outside every half hour with the option of staying inside and alternating to refresh so long as the person was not dehydrated and a fire watch was there making sure that the person inside was doing okay...

I mean it was gravy welding but the conditions were kind of hot and not in a good way! :red:

Nonetheless, we soldiered on and got the repair job completed ahead of time. :lol:

P.S. Al, that joint configuration was standard widespread @ EB for CJP's of that sort double bevel groove. :wink:

Most if not all shipyards use the same configuration for that type of joint also

Respectfully,
Henry

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-25-2014 04:37

Henry,

At least this shop has a pretty good safety policy and watches them pretty well. I've seen them grab guys and get them to an office and get electrolytes into them and then after a break put them on light duty or even send them home. I don't know of any that have needed to go to the hospital.

Some of them have their own versions of those vests you mentioned. They work fair. And several of them do have the hoods with positive air flow filters that help with keeping cool as well.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 07-24-2014 16:23

That's an excellent idea Al!

Scott don't feel guilty at all what you did was the right thing to do and you should instead be proud of yourself for taking such action... :cool:

So what if the bonehead has to get his window replaced and maybe shell out to pay out of pocket... Life is life and you saved one so in my book, you're a stand up guy! :yell:

The owner of the car is lucky that a broken window is all he got for punishment from you know who (Divine intervention), and maybe from now on he'll think twice before putting his family member in a life threatening situation... Finally, I sure hope that person doesn't have any small children. :eek:

Walk tall my friend... Walk tall!

Respectfully,
Henry

By SCOTTN

Date 07-24-2014 17:17

Thank you, Al, Brent, and Henry. Although I take my job and my responsibilities very seriously, I’ve always tried to inject a little humor into what I do. As for writing, other than trying to duplicate my wife’s handwriting for a suicide note, I haven’t considered writing anything beyond what I post here. Before anybody jumps to the conclusion that I'm a bad guy, I was never able to convincingly duplicate her handwriting, so naturally, we never made it to the second step, where the plan was to talk her into standing on a chair and trying on the necklace that I’d made for her.

By PlasmaHead2 (***)

Date 07-25-2014 03:11

Good Sir,
LMFAO!!!!!!!!! :lol:

By JTMcC

Date 07-26-2014 02:03

120 is very unusual in Phoenix, you can look it up.
The official temps are always lower than real world. But it's a pretty warm spot.
My, and almost all smart levels have a thermometer built in. I've seen 145 degree in my work area, while the official high temp was 122, on the Colorado river of course.

I spent the last few days inside a monopole in Las Vegas with the official temp of 115. In real terms it's hot but not unbearable. Better than 93 in the midwest or south with 70-90% humidity. To me at least and I've dredged out thousands of hours in both. Pick your climate.

To the OP, get a simple diagram of welding symbols (many, many online) and sit down and get to understand it. That's a simple question and it really makes welders look stupid. The symbols are not rocketry science, everbody can figure them out. You can't successfully bid (code) work long term without understanding them.

John