Can you weld painted steel?

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 09-19-2014 18:15

Welcome to the forum Alan.

Need more info.

The only method I'm familiar with is to test.
D1.1 prohibits welding over paint. The exception would be to run a procedure qualification for the production work using painted material (the exact stuff) for your PQR's

It seems to me like you might be required to use engineering controls to manage fume and dust no matter which way you go here.

By Plasma56 (**)

Date 09-19-2014 22:17

Yes, your risk to liability if it fails.

My answer would be different. Without greater details and information as Lawrence mentioned as to what is being welded, where it's being welded, what process is being used, the books all say, cleaning to sound metal will go along way to ensuring sound results.
For that reason I answered risk of liability if you have a choice to make with it being acceptable?

And what Lawrence said. That works.

If I had to add greater to the conversation about what method for determining if it was acceptable, I might add conscience. Maybe it should have been my first choice?

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 09-19-2014 23:20

Alan,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

YES, you can weld painted steel. No problem. You can use 6011, 6013, 7014, or even 7018 and weld away.

That is the true factual answer based on the simplicity of your question and lack of enough information to draw an educated answer out of us.

We need: applicable code, welding process, material classification, electrode specification, existing work or new construction, and a whole lot more to get serious about the wide variety of aspects this entails.

Now, having said all that, one of my first concerns would be the FACT that you referenced 'lead-based paint'. I would stay way away from that one when it comes to welding. The fumes will not only be objectionable (D1.1, Clause 5.15 prohibition mentioned by Lawrence) they are also hazardous which throws you into OSHA territory for respiratory protection as well as other restrictions; not just a simple dust mask, good clean air filters.

Based on the lead paint, my second concern is the weld quality with lead paint involved. Have you ever run coupons through a bender after welding over lead paint covered steel? :lol:

Good luck. No need to go to the expense of doing a PQR and seeing what happens, just do your own simple bend test with a home made bender based upon D1.1 Clause 4 dimensions.

Now, if we knew you had a code applicable to the work it would help but, several places will restrict welding with paint within 2" of the weld root, D1.1, Clause 8.5.1. As well as the afore mentioned D1.1 Clause 5.15. While paint is not always specifically called out it states "foreign material that would prevent proper welding". Refer to bend test suggestion.

Now, D1.3 Sheet Metal may be the exception. Again, that's why we need more info. Galv, paint, and other materials are acceptable in some applications of D1.3.

"Is there a method for determining if this is acceptable?" Yes, Lawrence, Plasma (Clif I believe?), and myself have given you some. Liability, safety, codes, and just plain common sense (OOPPSS, UNcommon sense).

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-20-2014 03:47

Once again we face the same old conundrum of trying to help someone answer a question that is absent of enough details such as what Brent(BB) already has alluded to... This is just my observation so let the moderator, and/or the administrator sort out the specific guidelines for posting a question in the forum...My epiphany goes like this:

Based on multiple the occasions whereby a poster would ask one question in the title of a thread starting post, and follow up with another separate question within the "meat" if you will - of the post itself... With that thought on my mind, I got an epiphany! Why don't I suggest to the powers that be to add a starting post that would act as a guide to help new posters go about properly asking questions in the AWS forum??? Each sections thread list containing @ the top of the list a specific guideline that would become a closed thread after writing it in every section... The guideline would be something like this:

This is for anyone who is unsure how to properly post a question or set of questions in this forum... Now mind you these suggestions are just that suggestions so let's continue...
When posting a question that involves anything with even the simplest level of complexity. or as simple as one could possibly ask... It is STRONGLY recommended to include as many possible details & specifics of your question in the post and we cannot stress this recommendation enough in order to greatly increase your chances of receiving a concise, intelligent answer that more than likely be in the manner that no further questions will be necessary to comprehensively answer your specific situation...

The reason for this is simple enough to understand if you think about it... Let's say the roles are reversed and I am the person who decides to make their first post as a thread starter with a question in the title and a separate question within the post itself... the person that tries to accommodate the first time poster by attempting to answer at leas one of the questions and then somehow tie their answer together with the other question... This happens too often with varying degrees of success because some or most of the important details & specifics are NOT included within any of the questions and as a result the thread which was started with two vague questions becomes a metastisized ball of confusion with replies that run the gamut in attempting to accommodate the new poster in the hopes of answering their question or questions...

The guideline would act as a sort aid to those who are new to this forum and a tool for all of us to use in the hopes of achieving a goal of reducing the number of questions that are missing the necessary details and specifics which are crucial in receiving the answer or answers they seek and minimize the potential for unnecessary debate that could morph into a heated discussion regarding a totally different topic... In other words, avoid the potential for creating a thread with very confusing goals and purposes that can spark ill feelings and strained relations amongst some of the regular members involved with such a gob of goo that is what once was a simple question without any of the necessary details and specifications required to give an educated, concise and logical answer...

So this is just a draft which in itself is the rationale to justify the possible inclusion of some very logical, common sense (If it's still practiced) suggestions and recommendations on how to properly post a question or questions in the AWS Welding forum... of course these suggestion need to be filtered & refined so that they end up not becoming a short story that will surely lose the attention of any new poster/participant here...

Well now, let's see if I can be of any assistance to add in the process of ultimately giving a clearer path to follow that will conclude with the questions being answered within the post in question... Haha! :eek:

So we have a question within a question that can easily create some confusion at attempting to replying with satisfactory answers...

Now I am not going to repeat basically why this can be the case, or what has already been posted by Brent and some of the other replies because it is not necessary...
However, I am going to avoid creating more potential questions with my answers so as not to throw the thread into a tailspin so to speak...
The proposed suggestions in the guidelines must emphasize this also... So as Brent and myself regularly post, I will attempt to answer both questions separately using the K.I.S.S. method... :grin:

Okay, here we go...

1.) Question: "Can you weld painted steel?" Answer Yes you can but, it is strongly recommended and in certain situations mandatory to remove the paint prior to welding...

2.) Question: "Our GC wants to weld painted steel to avoid removing the lead-based paint. Is there a method for determining if this is acceptable?"

Answer: Yes there is a method to use, and it is shown in the contents of the AWS D1.1 Structural Welding Code, and since there isn't a Pre-qualified Welding Procedure Specification to follow as in section 3 of the code, one must qualify the joint that someone wants to weld with paint on the surface according to the clauses found in section 4 of the previously mentioned AWS D1.1 Structural Welding code in which Section 4 specifically covers qualification...

Without getting into further elaborating any more details and specifics in the hopes of helping the OP to understand all of the bases covered, I end my response as I did and wait for a follow up response if any... Now it's up to the poster to ask any more questions in their response... So with that, I'll end here with this...

I can also be guilty of overwhelming a poster by stuffing all sorts of directly & indirectly relevant information regarding the topic in question but, without filtering the response so that consideration is given to the poster's intent of their question/query at times... So in the future I'm going to try and limit my answers to whatever pertains directly to the question/query being asked within the thread in question! Haha! How redundant! :eek:

Hey, if you can't laugh at yourself then why bother to laugh at all, or better yet find something to laugh at and/or someone to laugh with!!!
Laughter is a healthy practice. :lol:

Respectfully,
Henry

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 09-20-2014 04:27

Thanks Henry. Good laughing points. Great idea but doesn't take into account the ever present human condition.

Upon reading your excellent guidelines I realized my post could come across with a harsh attitude that was not intended. Probably why I have on more than one occasion brought out negative responses from others.

To the OP, please do not take offense with any comments in my post but do note the supporting evidence from the context that demonstrates the need for more information and clear inquiries in order for us to be of any legitimate assistance in your search for information, education, skills, and supporting documentation.

Regardless of Henry's excellent oration on how it could be done, we will always see a lack of perfection from a questioner and a lack of proper interpretation on the part of question responders as well as the potential for totally messed up communication because we are all different with different perspectives, languages, educations, experiences, ideologies, and personalities.

Hopefully we have been of some limited help thus far and you will return to further inform us of your problem so that we can assist you in arriving at a well informed and documented approach to your query.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 09-20-2014 08:29

It's an idea Brent! A draft of an idea based on an epiphany man!! Of course it's not going to be perfect and one should expect that in a draft which is why expressed the need to filter and refine it further... And furthermore - I don't expect it to be the do-all that ends-all because they're just guideline that some individuals have the need to follow in order to organize what they want to express... Nothing more - nothing less... They're suggestion so either way they can either take them and use them or not since they're not rules after all... You're reading way too much into the purpose of my suggestions Brent...

And finally, it does take into account of the ever present human condition because it's just a rough draft proposal... You mean to tell me that you really believe that humans are, or can become perfect? Because I do... Just as soon as the dirt covers their casket!

Respectfully,
Henry

By SCOTTN

Date 09-20-2014 14:01 Edited 09-20-2014 15:05

I didn't take time to read all the posts, and this may already be covered. I just wanted to post a few links to pages that address safety and health issues associated with welding and cutting...

Structural Steel Lead Paint Removal Q & A...

https://www.dot.ny.gov/main/business-center/contractors/construction-division/construction-repository/qa_structural_steel_lead_paint.pdf

OSHA...

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=DIRECTIVES&p_id=1821

Another...

http://www.ihsa.ca/pdfs/safety_talks/lead-based_paint_welding_and_cutting.pdf

Edit:

I must admit that sometimes I can’t help but think that these concerns are a bit over exaggerated. I used to stand up in my baby crib and chew on the rails, which were covered with brightly colored lead based paints, and I turned out ok. I always preferred lead paint chips over Lay’s potato chips, and again, I turned out ok. So what’s the problem? Like that beer commercial with the most interesting man in the world… I don’t always eat paint, but when I do, I prefer leaded.
And at some point, as the dirt covers me, I hope they've remembered to lay me face down in my casket, because when my wife ends up spending all the money from the insurance like I know she will, when I roll over in my grave, at least I'll end up being face up and comfortable. I’ve never liked going to funerals, especially if it’s mine. I remember when my uncle was very sick and I went to visit him in the hospital. Within a few minutes after I got there, he began to breathe heavily and grabbed the pen and pad that was on a table by the bed. With his last ounce of strength, he wrote a note, dropped it, and died. I was so overcome with grief that I didn't remember slipping the note into my pocket. At his funeral, I reached into my coat pocket and immediately felt the note. I excitedly read it thinking it would be something that I could stand up and share with everyone during the service. It said: Get off my oxygen hose, you idiot.
The funeral before that one was for my mother in law. Has anyone ever noticed that funeral can be spelled differently to say “real fun”, or is it just me? My wife came to me asking for help in planning the service. She asked me what song should be played at the funeral. Evidently, “Ding dong the witch is dead” was not an option. I also thought that one of those bouncy castles would be good for the kids to play on during the wake, but she didn’t like that one either. She’s just way too picky. Since the kids would have had the bouncy castle, I had another cool idea for the adults. They could take turns standing on the casket and pretending to surf. We could call it “wakeboarding.” Since she didn’t like my first idea, I didn’t bother with the second one. Anyway, the funeral went ok, I guess, but here’s a tip to mourners: Read the dress code of funeral invitations very carefully. The word “sombre”, which is evidently a classier way to spell somber, is only a couple letters away from sombrero, but trust me. It’s a world apart in tone and it makes an entirely different statement. My wife turned to me during her mother's funeral and hissed, “When we get home later, I'm going to make you pay for this!” For the life of me I couldn't think of what I had done wrong. Maybe it was because I wasn't sharing my popcorn. At least I think that’s what she said. I couldn't really hear her over my iPod. I just looked at her, smiled, and said, “I really want to be here for you.” which she took surprisingly well. Seriously though, it was at the reception afterwards that I really lost it, after I realized that somebody ate the last sausage roll. And as if that wasn’t enough, the crappy spread in the sandwiches totally ruined the reception for me. After I took one bite, I shouted “ I can't bereave. It's not butter.” Anyway, in keeping with the tradition of putting the “fun” in a funeral, I’m going to suggest a pinata at mine. You know, to make people happy. But it will be filled with bees, you know, to make me happy.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 09-20-2014 16:09

Henry, it's all good. I know that. I started by saying they were good laughing points. Yet good points for sure.

I just made a personal observation about my post that you prompted with your monologue. But for the good.

See, another example as well about how difficult it can be to understand one another in internet conversations.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent