Looking for Paid Phone Consultation with CWI

By yojimbo (***)

Date 10-20-2014 17:23

Gentlemen,

As tremendously valuable as this forum remains there are times that a direct professional relationship is the only solution. The local CWI I usually consult with is unavailable and I need some answers and direction determining AWS D1.3 WPSs & PQRs.

The project is specified as D1.1. Materials are specified as A500.
The HSS 2 X 3 we will provide is .120 wall A500. The HSS 1 X 1 we will provide is .120 wall A513. These are the only materials readily available to us. These deviations from Contract Documents were presented to the Owner before bid date, and the Prime at time of our subcontract proposal. Neither of those parties have addressed the issue. I understand this issue is determined by the Owners Engineer. I wish to present the Engineer with sufficient documentation to make his decision an easy one. I want to supplement our shop drawing submittal with a WPS for fillet and /or radius bevel welds qualified to D1.3. If a PQR will be required I want to restrict the qualification to macro etching.

I would perform all testing and qualification in shop. I will be accessing 2008 D1.3 later this afternoon. I would expect the CWIs guidance, direction and interpretation to involve approximately 1 hour of paid phone consultation broken into 2-4 calls with an email or two backup conformation of their directions.

Items would include correct: D1.3 material tables, pre-qualified WPSs if applicable, PQR test procedure is required, direction for the correct documentation I need to provide and navigation to the correct D1.3 pages for what I presume will be either Clause 3 or 4.

If any of the more established, senior members, Al, Lawrence, Fred, Scott [you know the caliber I'm looking for] can make the time please private message a good contact number so I can get in touch.

Thanks in advance.

Jim King
Mobile Fabrication Services LLC
WA Lic. # MOBILFS88D3

By SCOTTN

Date 10-20-2014 20:31

I'm trying to help but I've been in and out all day today and have to refocus every time I come back to the office. My first thought is that the .120 material thickness is not within D1.1 parameters and the A513 spec. is not a prequalified base metal. It also has several grades and chemical compositions within its specification, and the yield and tensile properties of A500B (around 46 ksi yield and 58 ksi tensile) are greater than those of A513 (around 30 ksi yield and 42 ksi tensile). Do you have the actual MTR's on the A513 material? If so, you might want to compare the actual yield, tensile, and chemicals of the A513 to see if they're close to the the A500B specified yield, tensile, and chemicals. If they are, the EOR might approve the use of A513. Just a thought.

By fschweighardt (***)

Date 10-21-2014 11:40 Edited 10-21-2014 14:26

So there is good news and bad news (like always)
Bad: Neither A500 nor A513 appear in the prequalified base metal area, Table 1.2
If you get the 513 accepted, (the 500 is already specified, hopefully we can consider it accepted) you can qualify base metals as part of a welding qualification. You will want to specify grades to match the 500 in your request to the EOR
I would speculate that you will need a flare bevel joint with groove weld, a tee joint with a fillet weld, and possibly a square groove joint with a butt weld. Sadly, it looks like you may have to qualify 500 to 500, 513 to 513, and 500 to 513 for each of these (if needed)
Good news
The tests are very simple, manual destructive testing (no macro even), on coupons that are a few inches long.
sq. grooves are in Table 4.1, assy 4.1
fillet in a tee is assy 4.2C
In a bizarre departure from sanity, the flare bevel with groove is not drawn, but described in 4.6.3.2(1)(a)

Final bad news, getting coupons of the correct size may require some work, as you need a piece 2.5 in wide, 3" long, at least for the flares, cant see a minimum size for the others. I think we talked before about getting a larger tube and slicing flat coupons out of it, as I don't think you can get A500 or A513 in a flat section.

Watch the grades, as there are many as Scott mentioned, but you should be able to specify 1030 or maybe 1035 to match A500 Grade B
http://www.industrialtube.com/client/images/A513.pdf
http://www.industrialtube.com/client/images/A500.pdf

By yojimbo (***)

Date 10-21-2014 14:34

Fred,

I have good news of my own: Contacted a different supplier than usual. They can supply the 1 X 1 X .120 HSS in A500, so -no material substitution. On to the D1.1vs D1.3 challenge. Contract docs. specify all work to D1.1. My position is, requiring a WPS to D1.3 is a change of design criteria and would be an additional cost to the Owner. My understanding is that it is within the Engineers discretion to allow the use of .120 wall HSS [.005 difference] under D1.1

D1.3, 1.2.1: "These steels may also be welded to any of the steels listed in the latest edition of ANSI/AWS D1.1"

D1.3, 1.2.2: "When a steel other than those covered in 1.2.1 is approved under the provisions of the project or product specification, and such a steel is proposed for welded construction, the weldability of the steel, and the WPS for welding it shall be established by qualification in conformance with the requirements of section 4 and such other requirements as prescribed by the Engineer".

So, A500 is listed as qualified in D1.1 but not D1.3. We have D1.1 WPSs in place but would have to qualify the A500- an unlisted steel in D1.3 under Section 4 of D1.3? That would be perplexing. I'll call. Thanks for the response.

By fschweighardt (***)

Date 10-21-2014 14:45

There is some unclear language in 1.2.1 (to me at least) in references to which steels can be welded to D1.1 steel. It does not seem to say that 2 pieces of D1.1 listed steel may be welded together under D1.3.

If you can get EOR to accept the .005 under thickness material for D1.1, you may be all set.

If not, but can get D1.3 accepted as a code of construction, and your can get material acceptance to D1.2.2, then the WPS should not be too difficult