Heat Input Range for Steel, Stainless, and Aluminum

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-19-2014 07:31

What's the matter? You mean to tell me that you can't take a few minutes out of your own time to look something like that up online? Hmmmmm, Btw, what do you do for a living? Are you a welder, inspector, supervisor, student or some type of management? Inquiring minds want to know kevinC. :grin:

And I'm curious as well especially after reading this in your OP: "As I dig deeper into the subject, the more I find welding is a tough subject."

Respectfully,
Henry

By S J

Date 11-19-2014 13:17

1.) Are you welding to a code?
2.) If so, is the heat input limit controlled by that code?
3.) Are you sure that you are experiencing cold cracking and not other crack causing issues?
4.) Are you welding to a WPS (or other process control document), or are you on your own with an open set-up?
5.) What is your job role?
6.) Do you have QA and lab support available?
7.) Do you have material chemistry and welding consumables certification documents available which list the accurate chemistries for the material lots you are dealing with?

If not, you are perhaps facing an uphill battle.

But, the short answer is that the minimal heat input to accomplish the task is usually the best answer for most materials - followed by elimination of tramp elements in the base metals. Material cleanliness is also sometimes an important factor.

If you are a welder who is truly seeking knowledge, and not a metallurgist, then you might want to look at some articles that discuss the tactics typically employed to prevent weld cracks.

Feel free to search this forum to learn more - weld cracks have been discussed before.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-19-2014 16:20

Good morning Kevin,

Still hanging around are you? :lol:

Henry, from one of his first posts:

"Hi all:

This is Kevin. I'm a mechanical engineer from CA. I recently switched to a new job that involves some welding, and since they are now adapting to the AWS standard, I've been reading for weeks now to trying to get a good grasp on the subject (D1.1 steel, I'm using the 2008 version). We uses MIG and FCAW a lot, some SMAW. Here are a few things I'm trying to confirm if someone can just help me out to clarify that would be great."

On to business for the current post: Kevin, if you are doing some research for a WPS and/or problems on the shop floor, then the applicable code will be the first place to start and make sure the welders are following the WPS's for the material, welding process and parameters, preheat, etc.

The second place I would recommend would be Metallurgy for non Metallurgists or something to that effect. There is an online course here on AWS Website at AWOnline. There are also books available of similar titles as well as my favorites in the AWS Handbook series, Vol.1, Welding Science and Technology. Some good study there and an understanding of metallurgy will always help with the cracking issues.

Then, thirdly, AWS has a standard out available through the bookstore titled, 'Standard Methods for the Avoidance of Cold Cracks' . I have not read it completely but it has some good information most of which, as would be expected, revolves around hydrogen. Most everything already mentioned here and in other posts you can find by using the 'Search' function here will center ultimately around hydrogen. Lack of proper preheat= hydrogen from moisture/condensation. Contaminants= hydrogen from chemical reactions. Etc.

Check some out and let us know.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By electrode (***)

Date 11-19-2014 16:50

Sir, you're a gentleman.

By S J

Date 11-19-2014 18:36 Edited 11-19-2014 21:27

Brent: Not to be disagreeable, but I would be more inclined to suspect sulfur - especially for a material like 316 SS. (Or, alternate spellings - for the UK and others ???)

Then, too, where are the cracks located? Transverse, or perpendicular to the weld travel direction?

Next, when do they occur? As the weld is cooling, (and impurities at the weld center line are last to solidify), or after the weld has cooled?

Carbon, and hydrogen might reduce ductility, and thus, lower ability to withstand residual (shrinkage?) stresses - but, C & H are probably less important to control than sulfur.

Grease contamination sometimes contributes to unwanted sulfur content increases; however, the sulfur content has been lowered in many of our fuels in recent years. He would be wise to consider cleaning the parts before welding if the weld zones are not clean.

316SS welding is discouraged in most technical references in past and current publication (due to excessive sulfur content)- but some manufacturers still weld 316SS.

Many excellent metallurgists do participate in this forum; but many of them are already aware of answers to questions like this.

Edit:

Sorry, I forgot. Has the AWS ever published a D1 standard for Stainless? An AWS D1 Stainless code does not sound practical to me. I am not aware of any stainless bridges or any stainless structural welding codes - I do recall seeing some stainless roof trusses, but I could not see the welds.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-19-2014 20:00

D1.6- Stainless.

We don't know that he has cracks. He may be just doing some research since he is really broad with steel, SS, and alum.

Brent

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-19-2014 20:47

Careful SJ

Can you cite technical references that discourage welding 316 austenitic stainless?

AWS D1.6 Structural welding code for stainless endorses 316 as prequalified as both a base metal and a filler metal

It's very commonly used for dairy and food grade applications.

To the original poster.... As others have mentioned... Feed us details and we will feed you data :)

By S J

Date 11-19-2014 21:40

Thank you for reminding me of the need to be more specific Lawrence.

I was mostly referring to the "free machining" variety of 316 when I mentioned sulfur related solidification cracks. And, the warnings are mostly stated in older engineering texts and some codes and specifications.

The need for caution is often closely related to the product end-uses - which may or may not be related to safety or longevity concerns.

Quality standards and quality materials vary widely across various industries, so the correct answer(s) at the end of the day often depend on the specific application(s).

And, fortunately there are newer forms of stainless available in the market today - so my comment is really one that applies to material selection and supplier control more than weld parameter inputs.

Often, though, quality product output requires quality product material inputs.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-19-2014 22:28 Edited 11-19-2014 22:33

Brent,

You can certainly look at that statement and say "Henry, Why are you being so confrontational towards kevinC?" But I look at his query as being very broad and vague so flags go up immediately for such questions and because from my own perspective, I want to eliminate the possibility that this individual who hasn't really posted much in here, isn't someone else than what he says he is... For example:

"I'm really a wealthy arms dealer from some middle eastern country that's really interested in finding out the weaknesses in American armor etc, etc...." Now somebody like that isn't going going to post that and be so overt in the reason why he's here to seek information... They're going to come in here and pretend they're someone else... Which is why I ask the questions I do and I do remember on many occasion you doing the same thing to many newcomers in here over the last couple of years...

Oh and you forgot to mention the discounts kevinC. can enjoy if he becomes a member even though that's not the reason this forum was set up in the first place and if I were truly who kevinC. says he is, I would also want some links posted to help me find this sort of stuff a little easier.. And with respect to the books you mentioned, those are good choices although I'm not so sure kevinC. knows that he has only limited choices as to where to purchase these books other than the AWS Bookstore as opposed to any bookstore in Anytown USA...

Just observation or two, nothing more... :grin:

Hello Electrode! Glad you could join us again. :lol:

KevinC., Be more specific when asking questions next time okay.

EDIT: There's an entire section on metallurgy which I have contributed my fair share of reference material for anyone looking for that sort of information also so take advantage of it! And besides, it's FREE!!!

Respectfully,
Henry

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-19-2014 22:40

And Henry, I know there are concerns about various ways people ask questions. I know Kevin will be back in here and could have answered for himself but I remembered his first post and just took a shortcut so as to let you know what he at least has told us about himself. True or False, who really knows that about any of us? :lol:

I didn't think you were being confrontational, just a little hard maybe but not necessarily without reason.

Yes, it is true, I did not mention to Kevin that he could get the materials through the AWS Bookstore at a 25% discount if he were a member. As well, the registration for the American Welder Online Metallurgy course.

Now, as noticed by some of the responses Kevin, you really could have given us at least a little more info. Then some of these issues would not get in the way of helping you.

So, is this for an actual job with a recurring problem? Which material is it on if so: SS, carbon, alum? What processes are involved? Are the welders working from a WPS? Are there codes involved and which ones if so?

Your question seemed so vague to me that I did the unimaginable and 'ASSUMED' it was purely research for whatever reason. But the guys have brought up good points. Sulfur and other causes beyond my concentration on hydrogen. There are so many possibilities but it is hard to narrow down the field without information.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By 46.00

Date 11-20-2014 16:58

Seem to be missing something here! Maybe only getting half the story! Do we have to be vetted before we can ask questions about welding topics? I always thought this was the 'greatest welding site in the world', now if we have to have some sort of clearance or account for our questions then IMHO the world is doomed! Lets show some faith in our fellow welders and welding type people! If we cannot freely share our combined knowledge, we may as well shut up shop and turn the lights off on the way out!

By js55

Date 11-20-2014 19:41

Lets not get carried away. The OP was talking about cold cracking. You do not need to worry about cold cracking with austenitics.
And sulphur is related to hot cracking not cold cracking.
And heat input is not a method generally used to prevent cold cracking. Preheat is.

By SCOTTN

Date 11-20-2014 19:55

kevinC,

Here's part of an article about weld cracking that addresses cold cracking, from Fabricating and Metalworking.com., which was authored by Tim Hensley, with Hobart....

Cold cracking (also called hydrogen-induced or heat-affected zone (HAZ) cracking) occurs at temperatures below 600 deg F (316 deg C) and does not appear until hours after the weld cools. In some cases, it may not appear for days. Most cold cracking begins in the base material (as opposed to the weld itself) and passes transversely into the weld. It is particularly common in thick materials, which are prone to rapid cooling due to the large heat sink, and results from induced residual stresses in the base material and the presence of diffusible hydrogen in the weld. Cold cracking can also occur in materials with high carbon or alloy content, as these are also higher in strength and can be less ductile.

Preventing cold cracking depends primarily on reducing residual stress and hydrogen in the weld. Hydrogen can enter the weld through moisture in the atmosphere, filler metals, shielding gas or from that retained in rust and mill scale on the base material. It can also enter from hydrocarbons in coatings, oils and lubricants on the material.

Back stepping the weld is one way to help prevent cold cracking and it serves as a type of stress relieving. To perform this technique:
(1) Weld in one direction for a short length.
(2) Return to just prior to the start of the last weld.
(3) Repeat the weld pass, stopping at the start of the first weld.

Pre-heating the base material prior to welding can also prevent cold cracking by slowing the cooling rate and helping maintain the ductility of the weld and base material. Post-weld heat treating (PWHT) helps, too, by driving diffusible hydrogen out of the weldment and stress relieving the material. Other defenses against cold cracking include:
(1) Using filler metals with a low hydrogen designator, such as H4 or H8.
(2) Using filler metals with a basic slag system (these have high hydrogen scavengers).
(3) Storing filler metals in a clean, dry area and keeping them in the original package until ready for use.
(4) Storing filler metals in an area that has a temperature within 10 degrees Fahrenheit of the welding environment. Or, allowing several hours for the filler metal to acclimate to the temperature of the welding environment prior to welding (to prevent condensation).
(5) Cleaning the base material free of oil, lubricants and primers prior to welding.

By S J

Date 11-20-2014 20:35

Scott:

How can we be sure the article you posted accurately describes "back-step" welding?

What you posted sounds more like intermittent welding or stitch welding, which is a technique often employed to reduce distortion and lower heat input.

Also, we might be misled when diagnosing weld cracks if we do not know when they occur.

The possibility exists that minute cracks might occur that remain undetected until after the weld has solidified and service stresses are applied.

In cases like this, a first level failure analysis might entail macro or micro graphic inspection or even chemical analysis to describe the weld metal chemistry adjacent to the crack.

One possible assist might come from the maintenance of a weder's log - to note the time the crack occurred. Hot cracks typically occur immediately after welding is complete, and the weld is still cooling.

By SCOTTN

Date 11-20-2014 20:40

How can we be sure it doesn't? I see nothing in the posted article that alluded to intermittent or stitch welding

By electrode (***)

Date 11-20-2014 20:47

js55,
well put, very well put.
As I once said. Mostly it's worth waiting until one of you forum founding fathers does get it straight to the point.
I also did never notice anything on 'cold cracks' with face-centred cubic materials.
I.e. neither austenitic stainless steels nor aluminium.
Hence, Brent was right focusing on hydrogen; such as S J was right given the OP's question, confusing the parent metals' crystalline structures.
At least in my opinion.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-20-2014 23:07

Are you trying to be politically correct?? :confused:

Sound like a good politician to me...everybody is correct.

I mainly hit fast the area that off the top of my head I knew was a consideration. Maybe not for all applications and/or materials specifically mentioned by the OP. And, I have never claimed to be a guru on alum nor SS. I weld them and know minimal about them and am no metallurgist period. There are, however, some things that are just basic to many applications, hydrogen and 'cold cracking'.

I actually added some info to my knowledge base with some of the additional comments added by S J and js.

I'm surprised Kevin has not commented back again. I hope some of our discussion did not scare him away. Fill us in Kevin.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-21-2014 00:22 Edited 11-21-2014 00:25

I think he decided to look for the info himself which is what most people do nowadays...

And I'm the last person to not want to help someone out but, when somebody comes in here and only asks for some info and nothing more without even mentioning that they tried to look for it themselves, I call that being lazy or using someone else to do their own job which has happened way too many times in here and way before some of these so called regulars have been around to complain about why I am vetting someone when I am actually challenging them in the hopes that they come clean and either admit that they could have done the searching on their own, or they honestly would like some help on how to go about searching for this sort of information online...

However, I'm not going to do somebody's work for them because in my opinion, they don't learn anything that way and I stand by my reason and principal for challenging newcomers in they way I do... If anyone doesn't like what I do, then send me a PM and we'll discuss it off of the forum so we don't have senseless debates over such petty complaints that end up making this place look like a high school class debate because I'm no longer going to participate in such BS... I'll say it one more time... If you don't like what I write in here then send me your thoughts via the private/personal message system, and we'll discuss it further and away from the potential of poisoning a thread with petty arguments... If you can't do that then STFU-PERIOD!

P.S. I'm emulating Gene Hackman with the last sentence above. :eek:

Respectfully (For the most part :grin:

)
Henry

By electrode (***)

Date 11-21-2014 06:18

Brent--
thank you. Regarding your question: "Are you trying to be politically correct??"
No, no - I suppose you know well my policy: "Suaviter in modo, fortiter in re." (Gentle in manner, resolute in execution.) LOL!

No kidding though!
To me the original post shows, how confusion can be easily and presumably unintendedly produced.
Mingle some special (actually complex) terms with some special material denotations (actually representing distinct characters) and off it goes.
For me this thread and its appearance is just a 'normal' reaction on a quite good example for: "As long as no clear question is asked, everybody must be "correct"."
Nothing wrong with that, and certainly it was not the first, not either will it be the last time that this will happen.
Just good for such posters to have these generous fellows (including yourself, Henry, 46.00, S J, js55, Al Moore, Lawrence, John Wright and many more) around here, willing to again and again patiently share both their invaluable time and vast knowledge. I suggest exactly that it is, what makes the AWS Welding Forum simply unique on the world wide web. And, if I may briefly add, always worth for me personally to make a short break and come here for learning something new.

Finally, it wouldn't surprise me however, if - with all due respect - the OP (after going through the variety of answers given) could already notice that asking 'clear questions' may help to obtain 'clear answers'. That again may cause him to reconsider twice before asking future questions, dealing with intricate welding subjects.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 11-21-2014 14:11

Speaking of the OP

Good Lord!

All of this kerfuffle (yes kerfuffle is a technical term) given to a post that is vague and had no follow-up or clarification IN 4 DAYS by the seeker of answers.

It's like you guys just enjoy talking about metal or something.

By js55

Date 11-21-2014 14:41

Lawrence,
Sometimes gems of knowledge or wisdom can be found in kerfuffle.
And I have always been of the opinion that the greatest value of this forum is not in answering the questions but in the continuing discussion generated therefrom.

By 46.00

Date 11-21-2014 14:19

electrode, you always bring a smile to my face!

Such an apparently simple question can cause so much confusion!

Alas, forums rarely get the full information required for a robust answer and that, we will have to live with, it is the nature of the beast!

We can offer 'educated' guesses and world wide experiences! these will differ as this IS a multinational site like it or not!

Fact of the matter this site has been so successful that any 'GOOGLE' search will turn up this site as a topic headline in just about any welding matters, so why shouldn't people ask questions on here?

By electrode (***)

Date 11-21-2014 14:51 Edited 11-21-2014 15:24

46.00,
thank you.
As ever, I much appreciate your input.
Good to learn that at least 1 person seems around, able to smile while trying to digest my 'wall of text' posts.

No harm intended whereas, as when it comes to asking questions.
As you say, this is - fortunately - an open forum (thanks AWS).
Of course and in consequence, everybody should be allowed to ask questions in his/her mother tongue.
Neither I'm in the position, nor I'm willing to argue against that.
It's just that actually I'm always told to be as dry as a dead dingo's donger. Most particularly when it is about 'welding'.
I'm afraid there's a grain of truth in it.

Btw. I like Lawrences's previous post as well very much.
Apparently I need to correct my former message - 'kerfuffle' (technically) fits to this thread rather even better than 'confusion'.
Again, no offence! LOL! And sure Lawrence is right again when he suggests: "It's like you guys just enjoy talking about metal or something."

Excellent*!

EDIT: * In a positive sense.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-21-2014 16:04

With all due respect Electrode... I agree but, this person has been here before and knows that he can simply look up what he is seeking specifically with respect to the metals in question which he listed and while you say everybody should be allowed to ask questions we're not dealing with someone with a limited IQ although I question how high it is based on the vagueness of his query...

Both you and 46.00 weren't yet participating in here when there were so many questions being asked by so many different individuals who claimed to be engineers or inspectors or management or students looking for us to answer their homework questions for them... Ask Al, Brent, and Lawrence,SCOTTN and many other folks that have been coming here for quite some time and they'll tell you the same about those days in here and how we spent way too much time asking them more questions afterwards because our answers covered the gamut of that topic and it resulted in morphing the thread into a different direction all together, or as is the case, the OP would not come back to respond to our answers... Those questions he was asking about were way too vague for any of us to give an informed answer or recommendation and in my second post I recommended to go into the metallurgy section where there is a considerable amount of knowledge a that many of us have contributed over the years that if he used the search function and would be a little more specific, he could have found exactly what he was looking for with respect to whatever it was he was looking for with those metals listed in his OP.

By electrode (***)

Date 11-21-2014 18:03

Thank you, Henry.
As usual - you did raise some interesting points.
And it might certainly take some effort to split their whole amount, causing me to deal with only a part of them hereafter.

1. If the OP has been here before then of course he might have had the chance to use the 'Search' function. On the other hand, I could read posts over the time, which have been heavily similar to others and nonetheless they had been answered by you et al.
2. If this is an open welding forum - which I suggest it is - then of course everybody should be allowed for asking questions, free, frankly, and independently of his/her IQ, status, origin, position, ... . Here I do fully agree with 46.00

In this regard. Would you reject answering a question coming from a "welding beginner"; maybe someone who actually and honestly not knows for instance anything about the different material behaviour of bcc and fcc structured metal (alloys) while affected by "high" or "low" temperatures? I heavily presume not, otherwise I fould have failed in my judgement on you and your permanent willingness to help and share your really impressive knowledge (and archives).

No, that was actually not my point. All of us, visiting, participating in, and valuably contributing to this forum, have likely been hooked to welding at some stage. This is good and as such it is likely that new individuals appear every day, asking questions because of starting their journey in seeking knowledge - this is my hope at least. And some of which - I hope - will stay for still being here long after you and me are already gone and forgotten. To me, it is they being required to take over 'your' position, in order to continue what you and many other outstanding fellows here on the forum have unselfishly begun, and generously continued. It is my belief that they (our successors) need every whit of support they can get, provided by those who really know what they are talking about. Personalities like you. Could you agree?

Again. My point is somewhat different.
I myself am heavily striving for clearness in what's being asked, disucussed, debated, reasoned, simply for being able to mentally penetrate, to understand and finally to adequately join.
Being human I often fail and struggle on my own principles, but at least I consistently try to the best of my abilities.

And, coming back to clearness in communication, it's not that difficult - actually.
As for very good example - even though not in conjunction to welding but nonetheless connected to this thread.
Brent was asking (quote): "Are you trying to be politically correct??". Unquote.
I could read and, because I was a special part of the history of this question, I could understand.
My Answer hence: "No".

I could figure out along the time that asking questions in clear technical sense proves essential as when it comes to welding. Simply, because this whole subject - covered by 7 letters - is that extremely complex (at least to me and kindly believe me, I try to understand for some higher number of years - quite similar maybe to yourself). And here - after another wall of text - I come full circle. Note what's been posted by the OP himself in his - as yet one and only - contribution in this thread: (quote) "As I dig deeper into the subject, the more I find welding is a tough subject." Unquote. So, to me personally he has already understood the most crucial thing in welding. Only his approach for sharing this already revealed fundamental wisdom - i.e. communicating with others - might be improved; to me at least, but as I seemed to notice from the "kerfuffle" contained in this thread, obviously not only to me.

Please do not get me wrong.
I seem to quite well understand your viewpoint, which makes me hoping that you will be willing to at least to consider mine.

Regards.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-21-2014 21:59

Thank you for sharing Electrode,

I do appreciate what wall of text you have written in an attempt to find harmony in our varying view points Electrode... However, the simplicity of actually searching for data, information, answers or whatever else one is looking for is something that everyone who has at least that rudimentary level of computer literacy should be expected to perform from anyone that comes in here seeking help... And my observation was just as simple in knowing that the OP didn't even bother to at the very least, perform an internet search in order to find some of the information he was looking for and simultaneously while performing the basic searchit would have hopefully aided him in narrowing down to the specifics of whatever it was he was actually looking for... Even if upon performing an initial search and being unsuccessful in his attempt, the fact is that the OP would have been exposed to enough choices to at least narrow down the specifics of whatever it was that he was actually looking for and to better refine his search afterwards...

The internet is probably - no, it definitely is the most important advance in technological innovation in the history of the world and ever since it's inception, it has continuously improved in it's ability to help anyone with the never ending innovations in search engine technology... Not too many years ago, the act of performing a search on the internet required the user's or seeker's ability to create a sort of syntax which required many attempts to formulate just the right set of words in order to perform a focused search via some early and now primitive boolean languages in order to be somewhat successful... In fact, much more time was spent trying to develop the most optimal search parameters that by the time one actually found what they were seeking, the process would have been somewhat overwhelming and felt as if one just experienced a condensed version of an 8 hour work day just for one single search!

Now, we only have to type in or even speak into the microphone and ask the many different types of search engines available with the use of one to maybe three words in order to perform a search which results in giving very detailed and relevant information or at the very least narrows down the search parameters to a more focused set of choices for whatever, whomever, or however one wants their answers to be concentrated on with the use of fuzzy logic otherwise known as artificial intelligence... So, not only is it so much easier to perform a search currently than just a few years ago, but the chances of finding what, where, why or how of anything is so much better these days and one can do this with the use of one or just a few words in the form of a simple sentence again to further refine their search if necessary...

And this is my whole point which for whatever reason is not being used enough by just about anyone that has the ability to do so... The search engines available within the internet are the tools that need to be used more often in order to at least narrow down a more focused pathway to whatever answers or knowledge one is seeking and the only way to take advantage of this wonderful tool is to use it and use it often... In the end if one is still not confident that they have done their due diligence in making an attempt to look for whatever it is they're seeking, they can then come here and ask for further assistance in helping them find the answer or knowledge they seek but unlike computers with search engines, we as humans can only do so much without having any detailed specifics to work with... And this is the main reason why some of us in here are growing tired of being asked queries that are ambiguous to say the least... I would like to respond more often with a blanket statement such as: "What do you think we are - mind readers?" But instead I try to refrain from using such bluntness as well as I can possibly tolerate those assumptions some folks have when asking for answers in here... And sometimes I can only tolerate so much which is why I challenge sometimes...

Are the search parameters offered by the OP too vague to use? I dare say no which further illustrates my point in strongly recommending and repeatedly suggesting that an initial search should be conducted both on the internet and within this forum by using the search function that's conveniently available to everyone to use... And then if their efforts to seek what they are looking for turns up short, then and only after making their own search, should they post a question in the forum... In this manner, it forces them to learn how to seek answers in a very efficient manner And after all isn't that what we really want to pass on to our future generations? I think so... Learning how to learn requires practice just like welding does but, one cannot improve their own skill sets in learning how to learn if they don't practice enough in doing so... Well, this isn't my longest wall of text and yet I think I made my point and explained why I sometimes give some newcomers a hard time by challenging them if there's even a hint that they at the very least did not perform their own search prior to posting such vague questions that could have easily been answered by using the tools available and then posting any further questions in order to elaborate further on the subject or topic in question.

Respectfully,
Henry

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-21-2014 23:40

Henry,

I truly appreciate the time you took and the supposed tenor/tone of patient expression used to convey your thoughts. And I believe I understand it.

I must admit though to being one who because of 'fear' of the unknown and 'ruining' my computer by getting into something I did not intend that I do not use it with it's access to the internet and worldwide resources nearly to it's potential. And in that regard, I TRY to have patience with others as this may be part of their plight as well.

Besides, some of us like the familiar and the trustworthiness of what we know and have come to appreciate and accept as expert opinion. Why look elsewhere when we can have the best? And then, the resulting conversation is archived into perpetuity for future generations to explore right here on the World's Best and Foremost Authority For All Things Welding, THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-22-2014 01:39 Edited 11-22-2014 01:46

Brent,

I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that I should be like you in being so-called patient because I have seen you get on some of the newcomers also and my point is not that he shouldn't come here to ask questions at all... My point is simply to use the internet or the forum's own search function to try and answer some or all of the questions one might have of a given topic or subject first! And if all else fails then come and ask the question(s)so we could help them out if we can but, I'm not going to do the searching for someone who can and is perfectly capable of doing it themselves by either searching the internet or using the search function feature that is included as part of the forum... I mean if they cannot even do that but can find this forum out of so many different forums out there in cyberspace then he or she can at the very least perform their due diligence and make a preliminary search online or using the search function in the forum...

Finally, kevinC. is a mechanical engineer for crying out loud!!! and he told us this in one of his very first posts:

"This is Kevin. I'm a mechanical engineer from CA. I recently switched to a new job that involves some welding, and since they are now adapting to the AWS standard, I've been reading for weeks now to trying to get a good grasp on the subject (D1.1 steel, I'm using the 2008 version). We uses MIG and FCAW a lot, some SMAW. Here are a few things I'm trying to confirm if someone can just help me out to clarify that would be great."

This and most of the other kevinC. posts have demonstrated to me that he's perfectly capable of at the very least - of searching for the answers to such questions himself especially in the vague manner he has chosen to post this most recent query which bothers me because if you look further by checking out his previous posts, you will see that it's clear that kevinC. knows much more than you may be led to believe in what he's capable of understanding... Those questions are basic metallurgy 101 and any mechanical engineer who took those courses when they were in college should know that!!! I mean just look at his previous posts! They're not from someone who is incapable of doing the basic research himself... He knows the difference between specific and vague...

I didn't just blindly challenge kevinC. without knowing ahead of time that he is perfectly capable of finding the answers to his query in this thread based on the demonstration of his comprehension and understanding of welding related subjects & topics he has posted in the other posts and threads he has already participated in here previously... Believe me in knowing that I can tell the difference of someone who may just be slightly or very inexperienced to someone who knows more than they are willing to reveal and are just demonstrating that they're thinking: "Why should I go crazy looking for reading material when I know that if I post the questions in the forum, someone will be more than happy to do my work for me."

I am not going to be that person and I'm going to call them out only if knowing ahead of time and with proof that the person is capable and has previously demonstrated of searching on his own beforehand as shown in some of his previous posts... If anyone else wants to do the research he's perfectly capable of doing that's fine by me but why when the person is already capable of doing it themselves at least according to his credentials? Give me some cake!

Respectfully,
Henry

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-22-2014 03:19

Henry,

I did not in any place suggest you should be like me. I thanked you for your presentation.

I also stated "I TRY". I have made and probably will make mistakes.

All of this does not help this thread and the OP. If you really want to attack me, go for it. You will get no rise out of me.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-22-2014 04:55

That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid and for your information Brent, if I wanted to attack you, you would most certainly know about it... The problem is everyone wants to do nothing but give me suggestions when I don't need any and instead of answering the OP's queries are instead focusing on how hard or blunt I am for posting what I did... Give me a break!!! Like I said before to anyone who read it - if you have anything you want to discuss about anything that might have upset you based on what I posted in here then send me PM because I don't want to poison the thread but between a few folks in here still continue to post crap in this thread about how I mistreated the OP and other boo hoo BS I'm forced to defend myself... So if you want to discuss this further Brent then PM me and I'll be happy to answer your message but keep it out of the thread for cryin out loud and that goes for anyone else too!

By electrode (***)

Date 11-22-2014 06:53

Thank you again, Henry.

Just to provide 'Plasma56' with another statement to just to add on his 'kevinC' thread "citation favourite list" (no offence Plasma56):

"Learning how to learn requires practice just like welding does but, one cannot improve their own skill sets in learning how to learn if they don't practice enough in doing so [...] I think I made my point and explained why I sometimes give some newcomers a hard time by challenging them if there's even a hint that they at the very least did not perform their own search prior to posting such vague questions that could have easily been answered by using the tools available and then posting any further questions in order to elaborate further on the subject or topic in question.".

Finally that sounds reasonable to me.

Regards.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-21-2014 23:41

Oh, BTW electrode, (I put it here so you would know it was for you) I hope you know that was in jest. :lol:

By electrode (***)

Date 11-22-2014 06:19

Brent,
sure.
As I said - I have understood and appreciated. : )

Regards.

By S J

Date 11-24-2014 16:50

The question (as stated) perhaps only leads to more questions - as some of the responses to this thread have indicated.

The crux of the matter is likely tied to the proper classification of the weld crack "type"; and this possibly leads to other questions related to the most often used terms and definitions.

Is there really such a defect as a "cold crack" or a "hot crack" - for a "weld"? If so, what temperature defines "hot"? If the weld "metal" is 100% molten, can the weld metal crack - or will the base metal crack?

A more accurate term for a hot crack might be "solidification crack" - if the crack forms as the weld is cooling.

This leads to more questions: how cool does the weld metal need to be, and what time span after completion of welding must pass before the term "cold crack" - applies?

The AWS text "The Practical Welding Engineer" discusses 5 types of cracking (for Steels) in section 7.1, beginning on page 102 without a direct attempt strictly define their relationship to the above two categories.

At the end of the day, when welds crack, sometimes the true cause is only revealed via accurate failure analysis, and sometimes even experimentation that is followed up by accurate documentation. And, best practices across the board are one way to reduce the defect rates and/or failures in the field.