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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Maximum single pass weld by wire diameter
- - By TB48 (*) Date 02-19-2015 14:22
Hi all,

Not sure this is the correct place to put this post but since we deal with D1.1 this is why I picked it.

I am trying to find out if there is something out there that will give me a list of maximum single pass weld (stringer bead) by wire diameter. I have done a search on the forum and checked the manufacturers website and found nothing. Also checked on the internet. Haven't found what I am looking for. We use FCAW. My boss thinks he remembers seeing something written somewhere about it but can't remember where.

Hoping somebody on here can help me.

Thanks
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-19-2015 14:56
Nothing comes to mind other than what is listed by AWS D1.1 for prequalified WPSs. In AWS D1.1:2010 you might look at Table 3.7 for the maximum electrode diameter for each welding position and the maximum fillet weld size and weld layer thickness, etc.

Al
Parent - - By TB48 (*) Date 02-19-2015 18:00 Edited 02-19-2015 18:15
Thanks Al.
I have looked at table 3.7 and my only problem is we use .045 wire for FCAW. The table doesn't go that small and it shows for SMAW. I am still looking and will see if I can make this work.
I greatly appreciate your time to answer my question.

Sorry I jumped the gun. I did find something that will help me. It is in 3.7.3.2
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-19-2015 20:28 Edited 02-19-2015 20:37
Terri,

You didn't mention the material spec. or the electrode spec, just remember that paragraph 3.7.3.2 is for Group II of Table 3.1.
Parent - - By TB48 (*) Date 02-20-2015 12:54
Scott,
The material is ASTM A36 and the electrode is E71T-1. They are both in Group I of Table 3.1. But my filler metal is also in Group II.
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-20-2015 13:17
Terri,

Also note that A36 is in Group II as well.  The difference is the material thicknesses.  A36 in Group I is equal to or less than 3/4", and A36 in Group II is greater than 3/4".
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-19-2015 20:55
Terri,

Wrong perspective of the table.  Notice the first set of variables is for "Maximum Electrode Diameter".  Since it is for 'maximum', it does go "that small".  And your 'FCAW' electrode sizes are shown on the far right hand side under 'GMAW/FCAW'.

Now, I think what your boss is remembering is from an old wives tale, and certain other applications of alternate codes, that we get into discussions about here on the forum all the time.  There are 'rules of thumb' floating around that say a weld can only be a certain size and base it upon electrode size or other non code specified criteria.  But there is no code defining of such in D1.1 other than the areas already being looked at. 

And take heed to Scott's mention of the section you are referring to in 3.7.3.2.  It has limited application. 

So, while there are good reasons and science behind limiting weld size, there is nothing in most codes that does so across the board in terms that you can hang your hat on.  Most of it will have to do with your own application of material grades, thicknesses, preheats, stresses, and desired end product. 

You have given us very little to go by other than these rather vague observations.  If you want a more drawn out conversation, which this forum is very good at, then we would need more information and even pictures. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By TB48 (*) Date 02-20-2015 13:57
Brent,

What brings up my question is. We fabricated a 12' OD Tank. It is ASTM A36 1/2" thick plate. The joint was B-U4b-GF, the electrode was E71T-1 .045 diameter. With a 7/16"-1/2" face opening. One of the welds failed X-Ray and had to be taken out and redone. When the boss was told that is when it was brought up about the maximum size weld for each diameter of wire. Evidently the welder working on this tank in the past has made a 3/8" pass with .045 wire. I think he figured 3 beads should be made for 3/8" weld. I do see on table 3.7 that 3/8" weld is allowed in the horizontal position. The boss felt like that may have happened on this and then wasn't cleaned properly after backgouging. So that is why I am trying to find out. The boss has in his head how many stringer beads it should take to make a certain size weld and that is how he bids his jobs. He would like to find something in writing that we can show our guys to say this is how many beads it should take to make this size weld.

Thanks,
Terri
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-20-2015 15:14 Edited 02-20-2015 15:22
Okay, Terri, let's back up here a little bit.

Some comments are made ascribing section 3.7.3.2 and areas of Table 3.7 which will not apply because you are not dealing with fillet welds.  So let's make sure we use the correct text, Tables, and Figures to see what the code says about your situation.

When your filler is a Group II and the base material is included in both groups we need to stick with the Group II portion of the chart as this is the common denominator for the work being done.  The only difference here really is that the Group II's are Low Hydrogen and thus reduce hydrogen levels which means you can then utilize lower preheats and optional welding parameters not available with Group I materials and electrodes.  All Group I materials can be welded with electrodes included in Group II.  And remember, this is only a matter of PreQualified Groupings of Base Metal to Filler Metal.  You can do any combination if you want to get a PQR and then establish your WPS's off of the approved by testing report. 

Now, you said the face opening is 7/16-1/2" which is only relevant when making sure of one's depth to width ratio.  This is not going to be an issue with material 1/2" thick and welding from both sides with the groove joint you have specified. 

Next, from your description it sounds as though the backgouging did not get all the way to clean material and/or was not properly cleaned if an air-arc was used by grinding for proper weld preparation after air arc. 

So, with all the information currently available my personal choice (notice 'personal') would be to base the Pre-Qualified WPS on a three pass weld, maybe four.  A root from the first side with one or two more for fill and cap from that side.  Then, backgouge and run one pass on the other side to fill it up.  This is going to make a good clean weld with limited heat input and lower chances for slag inclusions when trying to run FCAW too thick  and trapping slag under molten weld metal.  Trying to run few passes by going slow and thick with FCAW small diameter electrodes is a mistake.  Then, if the backgouge had to go really deep because of low penetration in the root then trying to get into the root while carrying enough metal in the molten pool is not easy.  More passes with better control reduces the chances of lack of fusion, slag inclusions, and other discontinuities which can result from these conditions.

The welder is to use the supplied WPS for his guideline for the job regardless of his personal opinions.  If the boss wants it done a certain way, then he just supplies the WPS that way within the manufactures specs on electrodes and the restrictions from the applicable code and that is how it gets done.  You don't always need the code to tell you exactly how to do it.  The codes leave certain items to fabricator specific applications, processes, choices, and best practices. 

Total time on job because of acceptance vs rejection criteria and actual finished product per customer specifications is the factor that counts for profitability.  If the boss has it bid a certain way and his way works and makes money then that is what should be done.

We hear it all the time:  'There's more than one right way to do a job!'  Yes there is.  But, often most of the ways have already been tried and this is what works best for us.  It is within the code parameters and it gets the job done with minimal repairs, total time, and thus makes money.  I have let the hired help try it 'their' way.  Then, I show them how my way is faster and thus more profitable.  The customer isn't paying for the employees ego.  They are paying for the boss's reputation, knowledge, and experience.  IF you can prove there is a better, more consistent, more profitable way, then I'll listen and we will have other employees try it.  See, just because ONE person can do it doesn't mean everyone can.  The shop method must be the one that will work everytime for everyone.  If there is only one person it doesn't work for, they get removed from the equation.  It isn't the procedure at that point, it is the person.  Either they don't want to do it that way or they can't do it that way but when the majority can then we don't change procedure we change personnel. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By TB48 (*) Date 02-20-2015 15:43
Thanks Brent.

I know that is exactly what the welder did from the first reject. And then did it again. He didn't get it cleaned out good enough. I have had a discussion with him and he is doing it better this time. He would rather make one pass instead of smaller beads to get it done clean the first time. This has also been discussed with him.

I greatly appreciate yours and everybody else that has contributed to my question.

I have told you before that I am on here everyday reading and learning. It is a great place for more knowledge.

Thanks,
Terri
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-20-2015 16:57
Terri,
Welders try "shortcuts" thinking they are saving something. "Bigger is faster" mentality. Often times these are not the case. Huge beads and then fusion and undercut are the result.
"He would rather make...". I see that as lazy on the welders part and inattention from the foreman in most scenarios. Kills me to see this. But QC and production/supervision have boundaries that should not be crossed.
Parent - - By TB48 (*) Date 02-20-2015 17:05
Superflux,
Totally agree about QC and production/supervision and our boundaries. I am in a new company and trying to sort everything out with everybody. Making sure that we go by the code book and job specs. Once again I am going through the proving phase. It takes time but I will succeed!!

Thanks,
Terri
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 02-20-2015 17:14
Rock on!
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 02-23-2015 03:35
If you're fabricating a Tank then why code to use is D1.1?
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 02-23-2015 04:10
Sometimes large pipe such as Penstock will fall under D1.1.
Those who OWN the end product and carry the liability can build their gizmo to any or no code they choose.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 02-23-2015 07:20
If that so, then it will be much easy to get the applicable criteria from the Owner.
Ask the Owner to show the tango steps while playing the music of rock & roll :grin::lol:
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 02-23-2015 20:37 Edited 02-23-2015 20:47
I've seen the Tango in Buenas Aires to rock music. They pair quite well actually. Far better than a Texas Two Step danced to hip-hop.
Not every boiler and PV fall under big brother Hatford's all knowing watchful eye...
All of the earthmoving and mining machinery I ever worked on fell under either D1.1 or the manufacturers' specs. None was built to the "applicable" code, say D14.3.
I know of a cryogenic separator plant that has no direct involvement with ASME codes in it's design or construction.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 02-19-2015 21:47 Edited 02-20-2015 13:36
In D1.1 - Table 3.7 for pre-qualified WPS requirements, maximum single pass weld sizes as per weld process, position weld type are detailed.
For GMAW / FCAW Fillets:
Flat = 1/2"
Horz = 3/8"
Vert = 1/2"
Ovh = 5/16"

Groove weld root and fill pass max sizes are smaller.

Whether or not a pre-qualified WPS applies to your situation, these maximums are good practice in order to limit heat input and the potential for lack of fusion defects.

Edit: Max wire diameters are also listed in Table 3.7 as an essential variable, but in relation to position, not weld size.

Tim
Parent - - By TB48 (*) Date 02-20-2015 13:58
Thanks Tim. I see what you are talking about.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-22-2015 22:13 Edited 02-22-2015 22:17
If the "Boss" wants to see a particular size of stringer bead on his .045 FCAW CJP connections and multi-pass joints, all that needs to be done is a WPS revision that states the size of stringer beads for a particular joint configuration.

Draw a picture of the joint on the WPS with numbered bead sequencing.... DONE

The limitations of the code may be *exceeded* at the judgment of the author of the WPS.  Once this occurs, it becomes "code." Whether or not the lawyers with the MIG guns see it in D.1. or they don't.

If large single pass beads are causing failures..  By all means, eliminate them by producing more strict and effective procedures.

You DON'T need a clause on the code book to make this binding on the production floor or on an erection site.

Edit:  Leadership is "purposeful influence"

.
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 02-20-2015 17:18
Pre-qualified GMAW (spray) Vert and OvH? Interesting. I would like to witness the welder qualfication process please....
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 02-20-2015 18:18
Only NAVY Welders are good enough to handle those...
Marines have to use FCAW, if they can figure out that you don't have to scratch start the wire...:twisted:

Tim
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 02-20-2015 18:46
"Pre-qualified GMAW (spray) Vert and OvH?"
Welders passing this test are also qualified as volcano lava research samplers.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-20-2015 19:08
It was indeed a mistake for the committee to put those two together in a column just to save space.  Sure could not have been any other reason since that is not a reasonable result of the chart.  Not that you guys are unreasonable, they were in compiling it that way. 

Common sense tells most of us that the out of position applies to FCAW but not GMAW.  But then, that's not what the Table says.  I agree with Jarsanb, I want to witness the welder qualification test.  Especially if they try to run it on limited plate, 3/8".  :lol:

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-20-2015 19:12

>Pre-qualified GMAW (spray) Vert and OvH?


...LOL

I smell something...wait is the weldor on fire? :twisted:
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-23-2015 20:45
Pulsed Arc is Spray Transfer Mode. Or it was in older D1.1's.

Haven't gotten into a fact finding on it yet and willing to be pointed in  the right direction as the where it Spray Pulsed is not prequalified.

Have a good day

Gerald Austin
Greeneville Tn
Parent - By jarsanb (***) Date 02-24-2015 14:20
The table says GMAW not GMAW-P. But I get what you are saying...
Parent - By SeeJeepGo (*) Date 06-20-2018 20:08
i know this is old post, but there was another post that answers this question and i felt it could be helpfull to someone reading this.

https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?pid=277817

re: GMAW pulse and an AWS Interpretation link
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-23-2015 20:31 Edited 02-23-2015 20:38
More than likely the only reference to this can be found in the specification for the filler metal. This is a requirement for the manufacturers when qualifying the products. Not sure if it exist in A5.20 or not. Don't have a copy here. However regardless of what A5.20 says, they are NOT limits for production.

Have a nice day

Gerald Austin
Greeneville Tn
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Maximum single pass weld by wire diameter

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