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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Guided Bend Test
- - By SJWH Date 03-20-2015 13:29
With root, face or side bend tests in mind, as an inspector, should you bend (try to open) visible discontinuities.
In other words, should I try to fail the welder?

In my mind it's a performance test. If I see a small indication that passes visually, I still want to bend it to see if it opens more.

Thanks
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 03-20-2015 14:34
I have never tried to fail a welder.  As long as the coupons are prepared and bent properly in a jig that's in accordance with D1.1, and as long as any discontinuities don't exceed the surface tolerances provided in D1.1, I pass the welder.  That's as far as I go with it.  In my humble opinion, I don't think any inspector should take the approach of trying to fail a welder.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-20-2015 14:35
It is not really a matter of trying to fail the welder.  It is a matter of responsibility to make sure the welder truly passed.  It is an issue of public safety. 

So, what does the code say?  ....  Where did you look? 

Have you tried Clause 4.9.3.1?  This based upon a bad idea, an assumption, that you are referring to D1.1:2010.  This is the D1 section but you didn't specify which D1 code is involved.  In that section we find: "Side bend specimens shall be placed with that side showing the greater discontinuity (emphasis mine), if any, directed toward the gap."  In other words, The discontinuity will be expanded for better viewing and/or to see if the coupon totally fails/breaks/fractures. 

Oh, I know, 4.9 is under Part B for WPS's.  But, you are referred back to it in Part C Performance Qualification 4.20 and 4.31. 

In the various Figures one is referred to there is no statement of exactly how to orient the coupon when doing the layout and getting the root and face samples.  So, it would be a personal application of the previous mentioned quote from 4.9.3.1 to say that you could do a visual on the root and face and pick them for which one got bent which direction according to the visual discontinuities present.  The only requirement is that there must be one bent each way.  It does NOT say for example, that on a vertical plate the bottom coupon will be the face bend and the top coupon will be the root bend or visa versa.  But, when we are told on side bends that you open up the most visible discontinuity, is it beyond reason to choose face and root bends that way as well?

I do.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By SJWH Date 03-20-2015 14:53
Thanks Brent!
Sorry, I was being sarcastic with my "fail the welder" comment.

Thanks though for reminding me of 4.9.3.1 !  That's exactly what I was looking for.
Also thanks for the last paragraph of info.  We been arguing about this also :-)

Shannon
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-20-2015 16:17
Shannon,

We have had several conversations here on the forum about 'failing the weld' and/or 'failing the welder'. 

While one does need to exercise great caution in attitude and thus how we approach the job, I felt I understood your comment more of a way of expressing how you felt about the difference between being the Judge and choosing the worst side to be expanded and that doing so gave the appearance of approaching the coupon with an attitude of failing the weld and thus the welder.

Not so.  When supported by direction in the code it is obvious that the code has approached this with the idea of making as sure as possible that each weld has the highest potential of being of the highest quality possible even though speaking in terms of minimum standards.  If they wanted absolute they would allow no discontinuity at all and every weld would have continuous VT with support from 100% RT, UT, and MT.  But that would be excessive under most circumstances. 

But to get the odds into a reasonable area of acceptable work completion we have standards and codes that lend to minimum requirements starting with allowable/acceptable discontinuities.  So the welder is tested to make sure he can comply to a minimum standard working to a proven WPS written to specs that meet minimum qualifications for preheat, process, welding parameters, materials, etc. 

Once we know the welder can do the job required, have a proven WPS, and materials to use from a selected group then we insert a reasonable amount of inspections to insure compliance with all the specifications. 

It can easily be proven that slightly higher preheats will vastly improve the ratio of success.  But, one has to draw lines somewhere and the lines are definitely MINIMUM standards.  The same can be said for other aspects such as heat input, having a max interpass temp as the seismic codes do, etc.  All would improve the safety factor multiple times over.  But, where does cost, history of success vs failure, public safety vs company profits, all meet a good balance?  Thankfully, that is not a decision I have to make.  Just follow the code as best I can. 

After reading Allan's post I re-read Clause 4, the Commentary, and checked out the notes on the applicable tables and figures.  I don't see where it actually states that root and face bends are definitely chosen the same as side bends.  But, as I said previously, is it unreasonable to 'ASSUME' (gotta love that word) that I CAN even if it is not required.  And, they do not tell you a method of choosing which coupon is which.  My choice.  This is how I choose.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 03-20-2015 17:25
Hello Brent, I should have added that what I took as "commentary" is contained in the WABO standard and that I had not taken this from AWS D1.1 although WABO standards are based from AWS D1.1.

Thank you for questioning and pointing that out. I should also have noted that: when I select the side of a particular specimen to bend, it is after I have done grinding/sanding and removed backings and weld reinforcements(faces, roots). I make the selection afterwards(the grinding and prep. work has been done) as acceptance of each particular bend specimen has already been deemed as visually acceptable first.

I hope that this clarifies my statements a bit and that the OP doesn't apply what I have said in lieu of what the D1.1 code and commentary covers. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-20-2015 17:36
No problem here Allan.  I'm right there with your practice regardless of the wording of the two codes.

Along with what you just said I would like to restate a previous discussion about finished thickness when the grinding/clean up is all done.  One must remember that there is only about a 1/32" thickness tolerance for grinding.  Not allowed to grind the discontinuity down until it is gone and the bend would pass without revealing anything or breaking.

Hope all is going well in your neck of the woods. 

Going to be headed back up there this summer.  Time might be short but one of these days we need to meet while I'm in the area.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 03-20-2015 18:52
Thanks for the reply Brent, I used to have to flame-cut coupons many years ago and I am glad to say that we saw cut them now and it requires very little additional removal for preparation. We are still pretty busy at the school and business over our way has been up and down a bit, mainly due to gas prices, supplies, and demands.

My folks have finally settled in with their living arrangements over in Walla Walla and their house is sold, so they are ready for the long haul. My mom turns 90 this summer and my niece is getting married within a week of that so it's going to be party time/celebration none the less when that rolls around.

If you are up this way sometime this summer certainly give me a shout and we'll see if we can hook up. I know that you have shared some of the challenges with your folks and I certainly hope that they are doing as well as is possible under the given circumstances. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 03-20-2015 14:49
Hello SJWH, I believe that you will find commentary in the code that speaks to bending the side that displays the greatest amount of visible indications. With root and face bends you would select whichever sides of the choices you have that displayed the most indications and then bend accordingly. With side bends, you as the examiner should select the sides with the greatest indications as well.

When I load a specimen into my bender I will put the side displaying these "indications" down so that the plunger contacts the side opposite the indications and "stretches" the side that displays these indications. I hope that makes sense and I really don't try to fail the welder, but I do test according to how the code is designed to be applied. As long as the welder knows upfront how this process is applied they generally don't feel that you are the opposition or an opponent. Just my $02 for the conversation. Good luck and best regards, Allan
Parent - By jsdwelder (***) Date 05-07-2015 15:42
If we are truly trying to determine minimal standards it would be my opinion that we must bend with the discontinuities being stretched.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Guided Bend Test

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