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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / AWS D1.3:2018 PQR, WPS, and Welder Certs using E7018
- - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-07-2018 13:26
I just qualified an arc spot SMAW procedure, wrote a WPS and qualified the men to that procedure last week on 18 Ga. galvanized decking to qualify the WPS and men to weld 16Ga. and thinner galv. decking to the structural steel.

Even before the inspector onsite asked for paperwork, he tells them to stop welding the decking. Says they can not use a E7018 at all and wants them to use an E60 series. All of the structural steel is AWS D1.1:2015 Group II materials, where does it allow 60 series fillers in Table 3.2 in AWS D1.1:2015?
Parent - - By Steelslinger (**) Date 05-07-2018 14:00
That's what I would ask him.

We get weird stuff like that from TPI's. At that point they need to reference the exact spot in the Job Spec/Contract, Municipal/State Spec or the Code that backs up their position, otherwise, sorry but no.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-07-2018 16:11
That's where I left it on Friday. Asked him to put his concern down in writing and I will address it when I read his points spelled out in the code. It disturbs my customer and that's the part that bothers me the most. They don't need to be upset, especially when nothing appears to be wrong with our position.
Parent - By Steelslinger (**) Date 05-07-2018 17:49
That's become my mantra with situations like that, "We want to comply, please specify where in the Specs/Code that is stated. Then I can mark it down for future reference".
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-07-2018 17:47
If you have performed a D1.3 PQR, and D1.3 is the governing document for the weldment;   What does it matter what is in the prequalification clause of another code book?

If the PQR qualifies "sheet to structural" and how could an arc spot weld not do that??...... Than you should be good to go.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-07-2018 21:24
D1.3 sends you back to D1.1. Group II requires lohy and 70 series.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-07-2018 22:10
John,

What is sending you back to D1.1? Even if your structural steels are not just angle iron joists, the attachments are generally still guided by D1.3.  Don't have it here so will have to look this up tonight and make sure I am also going by the newest, latest, greatest. 

Seldom have I seen one that needed to be performed by 7018 but the strange side is, you should always be able to use 7018 instead of a 60 series as long as all the PQR's and WPS's have been developed and the welders are qualified to a low hydrogen.  6022 only gets used because it is an easier restrike electrode and burns through the galvanized sheets well.  In fact, most Job Specifications under the heading in the Structural Notes on Decking/Roofing say welders only need to be "experienced" not qualified/certified in the welding process.  They will also call out the electrode classification.

Either way, he doesn't have a case I am sure.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-08-2018 01:03
Thanks for the replies guys.
Issue where he is correct is what I didn't have  at the time the customer called and asked to qualify a procedure and his men for a few squares of decking rather than subbing it out. They also only had E7018's on the truck, so we used what he had ....uggh.....

Now for the hard to swallow part....job specs called for E6022 for welding the decking. He also took issue with using a 2018 code vs 2008.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-08-2018 01:49
I have a couple other problems. My qualified ranges for thicknesses were listed wrong. I mis-read two clauses:
Table 4.2 (10) D is for "other than" arc spot listing wps qual ranges
Table 4.2 (10) a is for arc spot.

And clause 4.7.2 (3a)i is for square groove, 4.7.2 (1) is for arc spot
listing welder qual ranges

Man, I can't read for squat somedays....I read the wrong ranges many, many times over thinking I had it all straight before typing it onto the documents. Welp, humble pie tastes awful that is for sure. For some reason I saw these ranges in the new 2018 code thinking they come around and gave us more room when qualifying WPS and Welders. Duh....I was incorrect they haven't changed from 10 years ago in the 2008 version.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 05-08-2018 11:35
Thanks for as Paul Harvey would say "the rest of the story"

The moral of that story is that the building will go up right and that you are a pro for respectfully taking on the situation.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-08-2018 13:21
Thanks for the encouragement Lar, I still feel pretty stupid for running that far off course.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-08-2018 12:50
I would agree that use of the 2018 would be pretty early at this point as it just came out and nothing has been actually spec'd to it yet, in most cases.  BUT, there are so few differences per the job you are on that it really should not matter which one you used.  Unless I am missing something. 

As I stated previously, the code would allow for use of E7018.  But, since the Job Specs called for E6022 you would need to get an RFI to change it.  If it is already welded, even partly, I would get the Engineer to take a look at that option to get a modification. 

Just remember John, slow down, breathe, close your eyes, relax,  all is good in welding land.  Just have to take a step back and regroup.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-08-2018 13:10
He also made a statement that I just shrugged at, but his real opposition to the 7018 is... he says galv. and lohy do mix and D1.3 does not provide any mechanical evaluation (true however)...my position is neither does using any filler without removing the galv coating. We also know that D1.3 mentions numerous times about lohy controls (Clause 1.4.4.2) for welding to materials thicker than 1/4" and in regards to low temp welding(100F or less) with using Annex A Note 1 from Table 1.1 with a Note that further states that the coatings or galvanizing do not need to be removed provided the application meets the requirements of Note 1. (1B-using lohy, 2, 3, and 4) then in italics it mentions that the famous AWS D1.1 Clause 5.15 does not apply.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-08-2018 13:18
Brent, blowing through all of this was the crux of the problem. You are exactly right, slowing down to take time to read through it better instead of trying to correct an out of control situation on the fly.

My plan was to run the gamut of tests using all of the available SMAW rods and thicknesses for galv'd coatings so we could cover any future situation regarding welding galv'd decking but then they show up in a a couple hours late in mad rush with only 7018 and 18ga galv'd decking on the truck. I quickly read past the arc spot statements in the essential variables for both the WPS and Welder performance and saw the statement regarding using 18 ga to qualify for 16 ga and thinner and incorrectly thought that the D1.3 committee had given us more leeway when qualifying. I should have known better :confused:
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-09-2018 19:57
Well guys, a few squares were apparently welded with 7018 and the EOR does not want them using it anymore, so back to the E6022. We'll get the customer's paperwork and qualifications straight so they can continue.

I mentioned to my customer to ask and see if they can add an additional E6022 5/8" diameter arc spot beside each of the offending puddles. I'll wait and see if that will fly.

If he wants them to remove that section of decking and re-install....I told my customer to mention that removing that section of decking doesn't remove the original puddle welds. I really don't think there is any thing structurally wrong with what they have, other than the EOR specifically wanted something else.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-09-2018 22:50
That's the way the Engineer's stamp falls.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / AWS D1.3:2018 PQR, WPS, and Welder Certs using E7018

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