organize ???

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-21-2003 12:15

You can contact he National Labor relations Board. Go to http://www.nlrb.gov/ .

You cannot legally be fired for doing so even in a right to work state from what I've read.

The advantages may vary so I cannot say.

Gerald Austin

By bzzzzzzzzzz (**)

Date 08-21-2003 17:46

Yes, not legally. One must also consider that non-union shops can hire and fire "at will". I would handle bringing in a union as quitely as possible. (If that's possible!) It stinks and believe me I know first hand.

By mcavana (**)

Date 08-21-2003 13:51

contacting the nlrb is the right way to go. That is what they are there for and they will walk you through the process. I must tell you though, when I used to work for att universal card, me and a co-worker organized a union run for the 1,800 employees. After about a year it went about as far as it could get; we got to the point were the employees got to vote. If they voted for the union the company would not have been able to stop it. Unfortunately we lost the vote. The company spent hundreds of thousands on a non union campaign. Their whole OFFICIAL approach was "Why would you want someone getting in between you and your supervisor?" I never did understand this whole idea, seeing that I would picture that as a good situation. UNOFICIALLY they threatened that if the union was a go they would just close the site, and everyone would loose their jobs. They had high dollar speakers come in and give speaches about all the bad things that a union would bring, like strikes and lay offs. People had been there for many years, and although they were unhappy with the current situation, they took those fears that the company implanted to heart. It was an ugly mob like battle. I was threatend, suspended, fired, then suspended again once they took me back. The NLRB held my hand the whole way, and got me back to work with lost wages every time I was suspended or fired. At times I did not know who to trust. It was like a made for TV movie. The company had informants, including some of the guys who were my biggest supporters. They manipulated the system in several different ways to attempt to get me fired. They even had people testify that i had broke the advertisement rules even though I had not.

If you decide to go through with this, you must talk to the NLRB first... before talking to anyone. There are very specific laws about when you can advertise such a run. there are also specific laws about how you can advertise. If you break any of the rules, even once, that company will throw you out on your ass quicker than you will believe, and the NLRB won't be able to help you.

This is in no way, shape, or form trying to discourage you. A union in my opinion is the only way to go. I am just trying to give you very basic knowledge about what you are getting into, and relay the message that there are rules... and they must be followed.

I will not go into the benifits of a union in this post... I would not do the unions justice. Do some research. There is more info out there on unions than you can read in a lifetime. Make sure you read history, and more importantly current info. Unions today are very different from unions in the past (In my opinion this is a good thing.) If you talk to older family members, you will sometimes hear horror stories about union work... I am sure some of those stories are true. Like I said, unions today are different than they were in the past, so do the research for yourself.

Remeber as a worker in the United States, you and your coworkers have the right to organize, and seek union representation. Nobody can take that from you.

Mike

mcavana "Just stick it in there"

By boilermaker (**)

Date 08-21-2003 14:40

I would advise you to look at this website...www.boilermakers.org and click on "organize"...There is a phone number there that you can call and talk to someone about the organization process. The benefits of bringing in the union representation is huge...first off, it puts the workers all on a level playing field. It would bring standardization to the procedure the company uses to discipline employees..ie..the company can't just fire you for no reason...if they do, you have a union steward and the union to back you. You'll have more power to make a better wage with the union backing you...I could go on and on about the benefits of unionization, but if you're truly interested, call the number from the website.
JW

By GRoberts (***)

Date 08-21-2003 18:43

I don't have any problem with people who like unions, I'm just have problems with the way unions are run. Not unions like ironworkers, or boilermakers that actually provide a service to people who choose to hire them, just the ones for permanent employees, like dockworkers, or teachers, or manufacturers, etc. They always seem to be a lot more trouble than their worth. I would never work somewhere that had a union. They stiffle inovation which keeps union companies at a disadvantage. Dockworkers big hang up in the last port shutdown on the west coast was trying to keep computers out of the workplace. Get real, how are US ports supposed to compete with Canada and Mexico if the more highly paid american worker is doing everything by hand? Unions also promote lazy workers. A friend of mine was working at a union shop with a desk job. Since he was new he didn't take his breaks because he didn't know anyone to hang out with, so they fined him for working to hard. They also don't allow productive employees to be compensated more than unproductive employees, so why try? Not only that, but if a strike ever occurs, some union people get real ugly and practically turn into terrorists, destroying property, intimidating, threatening & injuring people.

Anyhow, enough of my rant/rave, but if it was up to me, I would be a lot happier finding a new job if I didn't like the management, than trying to start a union. Nothing but trouble there.

By 49DegreesNorth (**)

Date 08-21-2003 21:43

Unions gave us weekends. And the concept of overtime. You are right that they are exploited by lazy dirtbags, just as every social program is, but that doesn't mean we should do away with the programs. A far worse enemy than the lazy co-worker is the exploitive boss.

Chris

By AV8OR Date 08-21-2003 22:56

Two of my favorite sayings:

“A company that has a union deserves to have a union.”

“A company gets the union it deserves.”

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 08-22-2003 04:07

My grandma, now gone to a better place, worked in the silk mills in Paterson NJ. She was also an organising secretary in the IWW (International Workers of the World) the wobblies you heard about in school. Some bad strikes in those days, no NLRB to back you up, just the bosses rent-a-cops to beat in your head. I have this mental picture of my gentle old grandma as a young woman with a sign in one hand and a brick in the other. If it wasn't for those people you'd be buying your groceries in the company store.

Whatever you do I wish you luck.
Bill

By RonG

Date 08-22-2003 18:42

You can bad mouth unions all you want but you are only showing your lack of understanding and knowledge of current events.

You bet the unions have problems, good God they consist of humans and how many perfect humans can you count on 1 hand (other than your self).

By the same token company management is of the same ilk. And if you think they are on the working mans side you live in a different world and you sure as hell don't read or watch the news. Can you spell ENRON or DYNERGY and thats just the ones that the media choose to shine there lights on.

If management is so great and wonderful why would they have a problem signing a contract that mearly holds them to any promises they make and forces them to treat every one equal. Gee my goodness don't they demand that of the vendors and they inturn make such promises to there customers.

Give me a break. The company is concerned with the bottom line and an employee is just a means to an end and thats all. I don't fault them for that because there primary objective is to turn a profit. So it comes down to bargaining just like when the company quotes a job they try to get every cent they can for as little as they can.

So tell me, what is wrong with a working man doing the same thing?

Sorry for the tirade, I did not mean to offend any one. I have been on both sides of the equation and feel very strongly about it.

By GRoberts (***)

Date 08-22-2003 19:01

I guess if I ended up working for a slimy dirtbag, I would just find somewhere elso to work instead of trying to form a union. That's just my personal opinion. I would rather let a free workplace market do the job than have to have unions doing it. Then if a company was bad to work for, they would only have bad employees, and soon shut the doors. I guess the bottom line (as far as my opinion) is that it seems unions do more bad than good. If unions work for you, go right ahead and joint one. Also, the stuff that happened at ENRON would have been illegal no matter if there was a union there or not. Unions won't stop criminals.

By mcavana (**)

Date 08-22-2003 19:45

groberts,

If you don't mind me asking, what unions have you worked with in the past?

mcavana "just stick it in there"

By RonG

Date 08-22-2003 19:58

You are correct but legalitys are not the issue. The law is not concerned in the least what happens to the working people. The Law is about the same thing as ENRON trying to make a buck at some one elses expence. You can bet the legal fees will out weigh any thing ENRON did.

Its the concept. The guys and girls out there producing the marketable product are at the bottom of the pile and if they don't look out for them selves only a fool would belive the share holders give a good hoot about them.

As for going some where else to work. Thats a hell of a concept. Can you amagine putting that on your resume. "I quit because the managment sucked". A potential employer would really get a bang out of that.

Why put your tail between your legs and run? You sure heck might spend a lot of time looking for work. A good looser is still a looser. I would rather tell them what I think of them and work out the differances. If they treat you poorly they must already have poor opinion of you and if you run away you proved them right as far as I am concerned.

The union has draw backs for sure. If you are a go getter and want to move up the union can hamper you but not always. But it makes it tuffer for the managment to play favorites and ingage in Nepotism.

By mcavana (**)

Date 08-22-2003 20:28

One thing i forgot to mention in my first post here is that even though my union drive failed.... it still made a difference. During the companys non union propaganda, some policies were changed in the employees favor. This was their way of showing "a union was not needed." In the end, the union still would have made a huge differnce, but still some changes for the better had taken place. Sure the drive failed... but I did not. Instead of tucking my tail and running to another company I stood up for what I believed, and did slightly improve the working lives of my 1800 co workers. An added bonus.... I did cost those bastards (the company) a good chunk of change! :)

mcavana "Stick It In There"

By RonG

Date 08-22-2003 21:39

MCAVANA
You are so right, you might say it woke them up. Its a proven fact if you let some one run over you.... well get use to it or stand up and be counted.

I personally feel the union keep me from making higher wages than I deserved (if you could buy me for what I am worth and sell me for what I think I am worth you could retire) but I have seen 4 GMs and just as many Manufacturing managers come and go in my 20+ years on this job. They spent all there time complaining that the union crippled them in stead of trying to work with they had.

The guys in the shop were and still are not fools' They see very well what goes on. The buddy system wife and husband and can you amagine putting an hourly employe doing the time keeping. The husband and wife team as GM and the wife as company purchasing manager. Whats wrong with those pictures.

We went through 3 attemps to decertify the union and they spend un-Godly amounts of money hireing union busting outfits. It back fired
and they got there tail cought in the door when they tryed to buy votes with raises and bennifets then with draw them after they loast the vote.

The NLRB laid the law down to them and they wound up paying retro active and reinstated the rases and sick pay. They learned there lesson and now they they have got smart enough to put the pressure in the right places.

We now have a different kind of GM with the smarts to embrace the union and make it work for him. The union is bound by the contract also you know.

Okay I will shut up now, I have harped this long enough and I apollogize for my tirades.

By GRoberts (***)

Date 08-22-2003 21:18

Smart shareholders/employers do care about the employees, as they are the people getting the product out the door. If you don't take care of your employees, you won't have any good employees to take care of. I've never had to quit a job because of sucky management, but the key is not starting to work in a place that has a problem to start with. I've turned down several jobs in union and non-union shops that I though would not have been that great a place to work. Life is to short to spend working somewhere you don't like in an effort to possibly change it, when you could be somewhere else you enjoy already. It's kind of like buying a car, if it's a lemon, you could either work on it all the time, or get a different one and spend time enjoying instead of working on it. Possibly you have just been working for the wrong type of employers. I've never said unions don't do any good, I would just never work for one as I think the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

As far as Mcavana's question, I have never worked for a union, but I have worked side by side with union and non-union workers, and my wife works for a union. I just know it wouldn't be for me, so I've never taken a union job. The place I currently work used to have a union, and I don't know anyone here who wants it back.

By mcavana (**)

Date 08-23-2003 13:26

The reason i asked groberts, is I know from my own experiences that people who were against the unions the most were the same people that had not personally worked with a union. Very seldom did I come across a past union worker who did not support the run.

I remember when i was a kid, my father wanted me to eat an oyster. I fought him strongly about it. I had heard from other people that they are terrible, and they just looked discusting as my dad slurpped their raw, slimy, dead bodies out of the shell. My mom argued for me because she too thought they were nasty. Finally my dad threatened to ground me if I did not try just one. Of course I ate one.... And of course it became and still is my favorite food in the world. It looked truely horrible as my dad sat right next to me as an oyster eater. Even my mom, the closest person to me in the world, was wrong. I sure am glad my dad made me try it!! I had decided it wasn't for me before even trying it!

mcavana "just stick it in there"

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 08-29-2003 14:13

People don't work for a Union

Unions work for people (in theory) and are paid excessively to do so.

Just go to your local hall and discover what moneys you pay go to collective bargaining and representation and what percentage go to political pacs.

Unions have a place. They have in many cases set a standard of wages and work rules that non-union shops must match or be unable to hold skilled workers.

On the other hand many unions represent both skilled and unskilled labor in the same company workforce. The result is the guy who sweeps up makes more than the new journeyman on the job. This occurs because in collective bargaining it is generally (not always) the case that pay and benefit increases are equal between skilled and unskilled labor. Over 20 or 30 years the results are an overpaid labor force that bankrupts an employer. Thats Socialisim for ya Comrads :).

My Beefs with the Unions are fixable. I respect progressive Union thinking that includes the concepts of fair cross utilization and I respect management that takes the good concepts won over tough negotiation and puts them to use but yet stands firm to some of the lesser Ideas that some unions propose.

Its a rich topic

Lawrence

By RonG

Date 08-29-2003 17:02

Lawrence,
What you say is oh so true but the Craftsmen have to take some of the blame.

I seen it happen before and I see it happening again where I am now.

Sometimes people get a little to proud of them self. The get to thinking they are much to valuble to waste time or effort on menial task and so some one (unskilled) is hired to do it and be fore you know it the unskilled out number the skilled 4 or 5 to 1 or even more. Its pretty simple math from there on out.

Thats not the union thats good old American majority rules.

How ever the concept of Premeium pay (over time) eludes alot of good union folks. By rights union brothers are supposed to discourge over time in order to create jobs for union brothers. Try selling that one at the next meeting.

Middle ground is hard to find, every one wants only for them self (self included) and as messed up as they sometimes are it beats no voice at all.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-23-2003 15:36

I have been holding off on much more than my original post because I am a recent member of the boilermakers and had to think a little about my response.

Here are my observations of benefits of non-union vs union

In my non union experience I worked over 3000 hours in a year many time. I received NO health care benefits (Except for a company that offered it for $500.00 a month), no money towards retirement (Other than SS), no guarantee of employment, and if I had a disagreement regarding safety or quality I was usually laid off. The most I made an hour was around $18.00 per hour including benefits. Each job I went to I had to retest even if it was the same end user AND contractor .

The advantages were as follows, I could go from one job to the other without going through a business agent, I could drag up at any time without feeling I let anyone down, there were more jobs available in the Southeast, I was given work and pay compared to others based on my ability to perform. Those that didn't perform were laid off or fired.

As a union boilermaker I worked 350 hours last quarter. As a result my family has a health insurance plan that exceeds anything I have ever had as an hourly employee and meets anything I have had when in management. It's paid for !. I have a retirement plan in which money is going into as I work. NEVER HAD ONE Before. All of the supervisors I have worked for so far have been VERY knowledgeable in ALL aspects of the boilermaker trade. I used 3 hours of my personal time to take one welding test. I am certified with 7 contractors of which I won't have to worry about passing a test to get a job. I can go right to work. I have been treated with respect by all that I have worked with even though I am classified as an apprentice. My payrate as a 2nd year apprentice exceeds anything I have made as a boilermaker, pipefitter welder, millwright, contract QA/QC inspector (What I do now) , QA Manager at two fabricators, etc.. That is WITHOUT the benefits package.

I was against the union or any type of organized labor for a long period of time. Much of that was the result of encounters I had with people in the union that felt they were more skilled because they were in the union. WRONG. We all have varying levels of skill and knowledge all of which are needed by companies to build and repair this countries equipment. In my opinion there are a greater percentage of people with basic skills and understanding of the trade in the union because of the training program. The people that I have met that had "bought books" seemed a little rusty on some things besides welding.

I also thought EVERYONE in the union was lazy and out for a free ride. I was wrong. There are areas for improvement but as far as there being more "slugs" in the union than non-union. I ain't seen it. The slugs may be less ashamed of it in the union but I haven't noticed more.

Being organized and having a common voice is a very powerful thing. It's also a power that can be abused. An organized labor force should be able to produce BETTER than a non-organized labor force. Thats my opinion. We all have the opportunity to control or change our working environment. That can be done in various ways through organized labor and other methods. Never forget that you always have the freedom to change where you work. Either by "working for somone else" or "working towards something else".

I am glad that I am a Union Boilermaker. I am also glad of the years I spent non-union. I will work EITHER if I need to feed my family but prefer union and have other things I can do if not boilermaking . I will work neither if it requires me to do things outside the laws of God(I do enough of that without encouragement), or of this land .

We should try to treat people with respect regardless of the type of labor we are in.

Without management, there would be no labor and vice versa. Keep that in mind.

Have a good day and forgive my rambling.

Gerald Austin

By testweldguy (**)

Date 08-25-2003 11:23

Well said, (I guess) I somewhat feel that bringing in a union at the place that I work would also boost orders, from what I understand union contracters would rather buy welding products from a union shop.
Am I wrong ??? Plus the lies and the trickery would come to an end.
I once tested for the local 50 in toledo, they gave me a paper with a list of wages, I can't recall the numbers but, I do remember that the base rate was what they acually took home. Their insurance and other benifits were ADDED to Unlike where I am now,My basewage is so much MINUS insurance and stuff. I really don't know, cause myself has never worked for a union, But I feel that change is in order at my employment place. thanks for all the feedback.

By MBlaha

Date 08-25-2003 12:45

Interesting thread. I would like to add a couple cents here.

1. I know several people who complained about unions taking dues, corruption in the rank and file, protecting slugs, etc. These same people are always happy however, when they get on state funded jobs as operators or tank builders in closed states. They say wow, I am making 3 times as much money now. In prevailing wage states, non-union contrators have to pay an hourly wage equivalent to what a union contractor has to pay including the cost of health insurance, pension, vacation etc. They are willing to accept at this time what union people much older than I fought and even died for, yet maintain that union's are no good. Where do these same people, that say if it were not for overtime, I could not make it, think that overtime came from. (Which by the way, our current president, sentate, and congress have decided is not nessesary for chefs, nurses, and lots of others not covered by union contracts and signed a bill to that effect).

2. There are also those members of unions (the whats in it for me or as long as it does not affect me group) who say the union does nothing for me. They are the first ones to call the union hall and complain about conditions on the job, that this is not right, that isn't right, etc. However when it comes time to make a stand on the job rather than taking the issue to the union hall and rectifying the problem right there on the job, will back down roll over and let the contractor run ammuck over them. A lack of solidarity by the members themselves is in itself one of the major drawbacks for the unions.

3. While there are companies and contractors out there that truly do see their employees as a commodity and care about their well being, safety, etc. rather than an expense, there are alot more that don't. These are the ones that can benifit from union representation. I have seen in this area, attempts by health care professionals to organize only to be basically driven right out of a job by harrassment, lies, etc. Before the vote, the health care conglomorate, (non-profit, yea right) pacify many by relaxing attendance rules, being more caring about the employees etc. only to drop the hammer after the vote was taken and the organization attempt fail and demand double shifting, call employees in on days off and demand they report or suffer the consequenses. Amazing how things change once the monkey is off their back.

I will quit now. I could go on for quite a while.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mike

By MBlaha

Date 08-28-2003 11:43

In seeing that the thread stopped with my last post, I hope that I did not offend anyone with it. I am proud to be a member of Boilermakers Union since 1973. Now that this teaching job has come to an end, I feel quite fortunate that I can walk right back into the construction field. I was merley pointing out what I see as some of the problems.

Mike

By RonG

Date 08-28-2003 11:48

I was not offended. I did not start this string but I am grateful for your input on the subject.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 08-28-2003 12:23

I didn't take offens and welcomed the information. I'm still new to the union and have much to learn.

Thanks

Gerald Austin

By MBlaha

Date 08-28-2003 15:14

Thank you both.

Any questions you have Gerald, I will be more than happy to try to answer, find the answer, or direct you to someone that can help.

Thank you too RonG

Mike

By boilermaker (**)

Date 08-30-2003 15:56

Mike, AMEN BROTHER! Boilermaker since 1997 and have liked for teh most part, everything that the union has done except for cut the pension back. Fraternally, JW. BM. LU. 60

By UCSB

Date 08-29-2003 16:43

Yes- a very interesting topic.
There are, sadly, a great many companies where unions are NEEDED, and there are some companies where they are not. I know. I have worked for some companies that took advantage of the workers and I have worked at a few where we were treated with respect.
If a company respects it's employees, they will treat them good and provide for them. Too many employers have the false idea that they are doing the employees a favor just giving them a job- what would they do without the employees, where would they be? Could they maintain the level of production and make a profit without someone to do the work for them.
I have also seen the unions get so out of hand that projects had to be shut down due to excessive cost over-runs caused by unions not allowing workers to be layed off during slow periods on the project. Talk to anyone that worked at the Hanford Nuclear Projects in Tri-Cities area of Washington State twenty years ago when the project was shut down and mothballed.
As Q.C., I worked for a union that could not handle it's own affairs and had to be taken over by the International- yes, we got good pay, but that was just about it. The insurence wasn't worth crap. When one of my co-workers tried to organize a company several years ago, he wanted that same union. I, and others tried to talk him into chosing another union to represent us, but no, he started the ball rolling and the company fought and won due to the local having been taken over by the International.
Enough of my rambling- if your employer won't treat you fairly and with respect, then go ahead and organize. Just be carefull who you get to represent you.

Good Luck

Roger King

By billvanderhoof (****)

Date 09-01-2003 06:09

This seems like a perfect spot to wish everybody a nice Labor Day.
Bill

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 09-01-2003 13:03

Same to ya :)