ASTM 1018 and M#

By TimGary (****)

Date 07-14-2010 18:15

I see that AWS B2.1, Section 4.3.12 states that "...base metals ...listed in ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code, Section IX, shall be considered as listed materials,"
I don't have a copy of IX available... Can anybody tell me if ASTM 1018 is listed and if so, what M# is it?

Thanks,
Tim

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-14-2010 19:16

Tim,

Check again, B2.1:2009, page 74, Table D.1- List of Base Metal Specifications-Ferrous Alloys.

A little less than 1/2 way down, ASTM A108, Material #1, Group #1, Type, Grade, etc= Grade1018 CW UNS G10180 Bar

Is that what you needed?

Have a Great Day, Brent

By TimGary (****)

Date 07-14-2010 20:02

I think that is what I need.

Thanks!
Tim

By 803056

Date 07-15-2010 13:25

Tread carefully fellas.

Base metals ordered to AISI criteria does not have published mechanical properties. AISI only specifies chemistry. The mecanical properties are dependent on the chemistry, but the method of manufacturing and state of heat treatment is also a major factor in determining the mechanical properties. The mechanical properties of AISI can vary significantly from one lot/heat to another and from one supplier to another.

Steel that is cold rolled will have different properties than a piece of hot rolled steel. Likewise a piece that is annealed will have different properties than a piece that is cold rolled. That is why you will not find AISI steels listed by AWS D1.1, ASME, or military welding standards.

The bottomline is that the chemistry of AISI 1018 alone does not ensure the mechanical properties are the same as ASTM A108. You can not substitute an AISI steel for a steel that meets an ASTM specification. To do so can have unexpected ramifications. You can be in violation of the applicable welding standard or contract and it can endanger life and limb in certain applications.

Best regards - Al

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-15-2010 23:25

Al,

Thanks for that explanation. QUESTION: I did get Tim the correct M# he was looking for, right? It's just that, since not listed in D1.1, it will need to be Qualified to be used in his applications? But he still needs that M# for the report sent with the test samples and assorted paperwork for getting a PQR?

I just want to make sure I at least found/got the material info he was looking for. I made no comment about his question as to procedure testing. I had noticed several steels listed in B2.1 in 'Groups' that matched Group numbers in AWS D1.1 but they were not found in D1.1 and had figured, hopefully correctly, that there were reasons such as you mentioned that they were not included.

So, if I understand correctly, being in the same Group number does not automatically place the material in an acceptable Group with the same welding procedures as others that are on the D1.1 list for that particular Group. The example would be the 1018. Not listed in D1.1, but B2.1 says it is a Group 1 steel. Still not necessarily weldable to same procedures as those that are included in D1.1.

Now that I have probably muddied the waters real good, did I make a proper conclusion? And did I at least get Tim the correct number for the steel he was looking for? Or did I miss something?

Have a Great Day, Brent

By 803056

Date 07-16-2010 04:37 Edited 07-16-2010 04:56

I think I started to go off in the wrong direction.

The reason ASTM A1018, High Strength Low Alloy Steel is not included in D1.1 is because as plate it is covered by a different ASTM standard. Do not confuse ASTM A1008, 1011, 1018 with AISI 1008, 1011, or 1018 low carbon steels.

ASTM A1018 is material in coil form, if it is to be used as plate material, it has to meet a standard that covers plate. See the excerpt from ASTM below:

1.4.2 The material is not to be converted into steel plates for structural or pressure vessel use unless tested in complete accordance with the appropriate sections of Specifications A6/A6M (plates provided from coils) or A20/A20M (plates produced from coils). Plate converted from coils is no longer governed by this sheet steel specification and since this material is now a plate, the requirements of the appropriate plate specification shall apply, except in cases where there is a conflict between the requirements of the plate specification and this specification. In these cases, the more restrictive limits of either specification shall apply.

Best regards - Al

By Joseph P. Kane (****)

Date 07-15-2010 17:01

Timgary

Yes. You must qualify the welding procedure, if you are using a non-listed base metal.

Joe Kane

By TimGary (****)

Date 07-15-2010 19:30

Thanks for the info!

Has anybody noticed if ASTM 1018 is listed in Sect IX?

By Shane Feder (****)

Date 07-16-2010 00:10

Tim,
1018 is listed as Type/Grade in ASME IX but it still falls under Spec A 108,
Regards,
Shane

By 803056

Date 07-29-2010 01:04

ASTM A1018 is included in AWS D1.1-2010 in a couple of categories/groups depending on the tensile and yield.

Best regards - Al

By motgar

Date 07-29-2010 12:39

TimGary,

Are you sure it is ASTM A 1018 and not AISI 1018?

By 803056

Date 07-29-2010 13:04 Edited 07-29-2010 13:08

AWS D1.1 does not list AISI materials because they do not include minimum requirements for mechanicals.

ASTM A1018 is listed in Group II and III in Table 3.1

ASTM A1018/A1018M Standard Specification for Steel, Sheet and Strip, Heavy-Thickness Coils, Hot-Rolled, Carbon, Commercial, Drawing, Structural, High-Strength Low-Alloy, High-Strength Low-Alloy with Improved Formability, and Ultra-High Strength

I just received my hard copy of D1.1-2010. Sorry to say I found a type in the section dealing with skewed joints.

Best regards - Al

By motgar

Date 07-29-2010 14:18

Al,

I appreciate your insight, and the information provided.

Yes, ASTM A 1018 is listed in AWS D1.1. The initial post stated AWS B2.1. Then another makes reference to ASME Section IX. Another person suggested that the material is a different ASTM spec number altogether. I was only wondering if TimGary was maybe confused about the material in question. If some one reference the wrong material spec, then what might happen???

AWS B2.1 does not list ASTM A 1018, neither does ASME Section IX.

Besides, with M#, P#, S#, and just plain Group # (AWS D1.1); it is amazing that everybody is on the same page.

Skewed joints?? How does that apply to this situation?

By 803056

Date 07-29-2010 15:21

Skewed joints do not apply, it was just an observation that no matter how many times a standard is revised, mistakes still happen.

Al

By TimGary (****)

Date 07-29-2010 16:58

Thanks guys for your input!
In further explanation, I've taken a new job in which part of my responsibilities are to ensure that our current welding procedures cover the base metals we're working with and qualify new ones if necessary. I've been given a list of base materials with many different designations of material type/grade from internal codes to ASTM numbers, to customer's internal codes. It's been a challenge to cross them all over to ASTM #'s in order to assign M#'s as per AWS B2.1, sect 4.3.10, which allows the grouping of materials by M# in order to minimize qualification requirements. The ASTM 1018 that I was having trouble with was labeled incorrectly on the list I was given to work from. The actual material being used is A108 or A576, ...GRADE 1018, so my initial question has been answered.
Thanks for all the help.

Tim Gary

By 803056

Date 07-30-2010 13:27 Edited 07-30-2010 14:34

Grade 1018? That is a new one on me unless you are referring to AISI 1018 which is a plain carbon steel alloy with a nominal carbon content of 0.18%. The grade for ASTM A106 pipe is usually designated by a letter, i.e., A, B, or C.

ASTM A1018 has different grades ranging from YS of 40 ksi to 70 ksi; not likely to be used as raw stock for making ASTM A 106 pipe.

Best regards - Al

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 07-30-2010 14:08

Al, again, not sure about alot of this, you have a lot more experience and expertise here than I. But, refer to my above post to Tim about B2.1:2009, page 74 in Annex D, Base Metal Grouping. It has an ASTM A108 that then has a 'Type, Grade, or Alloy Designation' of 'Grade 1018 CW'. It is listed as a Material #1 & a Group #1 steel.

He said in this latest post that that was the material he was looking for as they had given him a misprinted number previously. I am unaware of the usage of this material just by this designation. May mean more if I were to pursue it's properties and finished product items, but an A108 doesn't come to mind as something I normally see.

Maybe someone could be more exacting on what this is used for to educate my uninformed experience with this number. But if the info provided has led me in the proper direction then Tim's material description should be correct.

Have a Great Day, Brent

By 803056

Date 07-30-2010 14:55

I went back to my post and made a correction that might make more sense.

The number of material specifications published by ASTM, API, AA, CDA, NDI, AISI, AMS can make anyone dizzy. Trying to compare one to the other is a near impossible task because, an in the case of steels, even when the chemistry is similar, the method of manufacture and final heat treatment can dramatically affect the mechanical properties. The Unified Numbering System developed by AISI and SAE does a good job of comparing the chemistries and grouping the materials into groupings that are the same or similar, but chemistry is the only consideration.

Some welding standards list the different materials by groups with similar weldability. AWS D1.1 groups the carbon and high strength low alloy steels primarily by their carbon equivalency, which is a pretty good index of their weldability when considering steels typically used for steel construction. ASME and AWS B2.1 do the same for the steels and they parallel each other, with B2.1 including some additional materials no normally encountered in pressure vessels or pressure piping.

I do not have a copy of B2.1 with me while I'm on the road, but I seem to recollect a clause that says something to the effect that if the user can find a listed materials, i.e., M-number, with a chemistry similar to the material in question, the unlisted material can by "assigned" the same M-number as the listed material. The question becomes one of how closely matched do the chemistries have to be in order to be included in a specific M-number group. I guess that is where there has to be a meeting of the minds between the purchaser and the manufacturer. I can envision conflicts of opinion when the listed material and the unlisted materials are sufficiently close enough to be considered "the same." The argument completely ignores the influence of the state of heat treatment. Consider the weldability of an AISI 1045 steel in the annealed condition versus the same steel in the quenched and tempered condition. The same can be said when working with PH stainless steels. They may be weldable in the annealed conditions and nearly impossible to weld in the quenched and precipitation hardened condition.

Best regards - Al

By TimGary (****)

Date 07-30-2010 19:08

Al,
In your first reply this morning, you were mentioning A106 pipe, which may be causing some confusion.
The material I was having problems identifying is A108 and A576 Bar.
AS Brent mentioned, it is listed in B2.1 as ASTM ( base metal spec) A108, (Type, grade or alloy designation) Grade 1018 CW.
I know what you mean about all the separate organizations designation numbers causing dizziness. It's interesting that both the material grades I mentiond above have the same UNS number - G10180.
I seem to remember several years ago that a co-worker had a master catalog of sorts used for cross referencing various manufacturers designations to UNS numbers. I wish I had a copy of that. If anyone out there is familiar with this book and knows where I can get my hands on one, please let me know.