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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / New York disaster
- - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-14-2012 17:49
Gentlemen,
Until a few years ago hurricanes only happened in Florida. Then, little by little, they started going up and up, first on the Carolines, afterwards on Virginia and now they arrived to New York, which is far from being a tropical land.
Do you think that the "green house effect", "global warming" "acid rain" "melting of the Arctic pole" etc. etc. are the reason for this change in the behavior of hurricanes?
Here in Brazil there are a lot of people who thinks so.

Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-14-2012 19:30
No I do not. Nor did hurricanes only happen in Florida.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/outreach/history/

There have been times in history when the polar ice was all but gone. The problem with the 'current science' is that it is being driven politically.
It would be advisable to look up the maunder and spore minimums for a better understanding of the cycles in recent history.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-14-2012 19:32 Edited 11-15-2012 20:59
What does this have to do with welding Giavonni??? Excuse me if I spelled your name incorrectly and please let me:eek::wink: know if it is.

After all, this is the Technical Welding section of the forum, and that's why I ask...:roll::lol:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-16-2012 21:00
As a matter of fact, it's not related directly with welding.
BUT, having put this question on the Forum it's the only mean I have to know the opinion of the average American citizen. Here in Sao Paulo I can buy TIME magazine and the New York Times newspaper, but apart from being expensive, do they actually reflect the opinion of the average American citizen? Do they? I don't know.

I said it's not related DIRECTLY with welding, but good chances are it's related to environmental pollution, and all of us, inhabitants of mother Earth are (or at least should be) concerned with pollution, including welding engineers, technicians, certified inspectors and welders. The welding shop (or laboratory, as the university officials like to call it) at Mackenzie University has been provided with every mean to prevent atmospheric pollution and care of the students health. If welding is carried out with no care to the environment, it'll have contributed, even in a sub-microscopic way, to the New York disaster.  

Giovanni S. Crisi 

PS. My correct name is Giovanni, i.e., John, in English.
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-16-2012 21:35

>John, in English.


That is a great name, even if I say so myself :cool:
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-17-2012 00:35 Edited 11-17-2012 00:39
You know, I had it right the first time I spelled your name Giovanni My apologies "John.":wink::lol:

Btw, what you really meant to say is that welding "indirectly" has something to do with the New York Disaster... however, I beg to differ in that what happened in New York, happened in New Jersey also... I mean, Let's not forget the towns on the New Jersey coastline that were completely wiped off the face of the Earth because of the storm's surging of the Ocean's water in the form of HUGE waves that pummeled boardwalks and went right over barrier berms then engulfing them afterwards!!!

An Amusement Park was completely destroyed with one killer wave!!! The water kept going inland as the waves kept coming... Then the storm surge came and brought more water over what was already in place and which was flooded before causing houses to become completely dislodged from their foundations... Barrier Islands were totally inundated with sand then water and finally disappearing from existence! A Very LARGE pier looked as if some giant animal took a huge bite out of it!!! The pictures I saw were incredible to say the least!

Some good long - time friends of mine were on the phone with me as I checked up on them to make sure they were okay only to find out that they not only lost their schooner and their variety of fishing boats from Sandy, but they also lost some houses as well!!! This was devastating news for them and very sad news for myself because of the many times in the past, we would go out in the Ocean, and fish in some relatively deep waters, and now that all of the boats are gone, I may not be able to go out that far again...

We would come back and barbecue our catch and just sit back and enjoy the Ocean breeze... No more!!! The aftermath of Sandy certainly is still a DISASTER!!!

So yes Giovanni! I agree with you in a sub-microscopic way of welding's contribution in developing the Super-Storm named Sandy.:eek::lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 11-18-2012 11:18
"...and all of us, inhabitants of mother Earth are (or at least should be) concerned with pollution, including welding engineers, technicians, certified inspectors and welders. The welding shop (or laboratory, as the university officials like to call it) at Mackenzie University has been provided with every mean to prevent atmospheric pollution and care of the students health. If welding is carried out with no care to the environment, it'll have contributed, even in a sub-microscopic way, to the New York disaster."

Yes. How much sense this definitely makes to me.

How responsible your (Brazilian) government yet is; providing you with every mean to prevent atmospheric pollution. Certainly to well-meant steer you for balancing the outrageous rape of "your" rainforests - actually however, being a legacy of human mankind.

This may protect them (your government) to maybe inconvenient questions, as long as they heavily try to become a "first world" nation; simultaneously trying to win some virtual ludicrous race versus China and India.

All this reminds me of the ridiculous discussion on using aluminium alloys for producing "Sport Utility Vehicles" (what a term) of 375 HP, weighing 3.5 metric tons and carrying drivers weighing 70 kg in average.

So what? It does allow the manufacturers for claiming "environmental responsibility" since having "reduced CO2 emission", using aluminium.

How meaningless, this whole discussion.

Unfearful go ahead Professor Crisi!

Who, if not yourself is at the cutting edge?

Write an official letter to your government seriously raising the question on how their attitude and policy might have had an influence to the "New York Disaster".

Finally nature is incalculable and we can see, it doesn't take any care of us.

One's for sure however, somebody will have to pay the bill for all our short-sightedness.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 11-18-2012 17:17
Do people know that HALF the worlds rain forests have been destroyed since 1990?
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 11-18-2012 18:17
And this, at least to the best of my knowledge, does consistently continue while I'm typing these words. And why? Due to some shareholders insatiable greed.

When money talks the planet has to be silent! Once a famous US singer, if memory serves me well it was Johnny Cash, was singing "And you could have it all, my empire of dirt!"

May God bless his soul because so right he was.

However, this is what them adoring the money have not understood nor ever they will understand.

So here we come full circle. A quite simple equation.

All the gases produced by (quote) "... massive volcanic activity spewing a variety of gases into the atmosphere, which is scrubbed out of it over time by settling, and taking it into the plant life" were bond into the nowadays fossil energy carriers permanently exploited and combusted.

So the question is. Are we striving to reproduce the primitive times atmospheric conditions? Most likely. We all, and I explicitly not exclude myself from that, are good at this.

And on the other hand we're allowing some very few to rape the planet by wrecking irretrievable resources, e.g. the rainforests.

There's another good statement:

"Where there is insufficient plant life to convert the Co2 (sic!) to oxygen, you will have an excess level of Co2 (sic!) by default."

So this is it. Blowing all the CO2 into the atmosphere and taking care for the reduction of those organisms capable of converting it, will definitely lead to the bill that someone has to pay, someday.

Anyway. The human mankind is dispensable and the earth will surely overcome this evolutional "experiment", someday.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-18-2012 22:51
The south American rain forest is estimated to consume 27 tonnes of Co2 in the production of oxygen per acre, per year. At one time, it covered 14% of the worlds available land surface. Now it covers less than 7%. There are 36,794,240,000 acres of land in the entirety of the world. 14% of that is 5,151,193,600 acres. More importantly, that's 139,082,227,200 tonnes (139 billion) of Co2 that is no longer scrubbed by the rainforest.

Now here is one of the many points that the various government entities do not broadcast to the public. According to this group http://cdiac.ornl.gov/ftp/ndp030/global.1751_2009.ems There is a total of 8,738 million tonnes year 2009 emitted. 87,680,000,000 tonnes for Global CO2 Emissions from Fossil-Fuel Burning, Cement Manufacture, and Gas Flaring: 1751-2009. Lets put those numbers on top of one another.

139 billion tonnes of lost Co2 scrubbing from rainforest deforestation to date.
87 billion tonnes of Co2 production for the year of 2009 which is the worst listed in the linked data for Fossil-Fuel Burning, Cement Manufacture, and Gas Flaring.

Since the area of the rainforest has effectively been halved, lets add back the loss. It would have been a total Co2 scrubbing of 274 billion tonnes per year.

So what action of man is having more of an effect on Co2? Man made emissions or raping the rainforest?
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 11-19-2012 07:28
46.00,

learning my lesson from CWI555's calculation/comparison you see me standing corrected.

No worries hence, and no reason for concern at all.

I rest my case - if you know, what I mean.
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 11-25-2012 11:24 Edited 11-25-2012 18:04
46.00

as I could learn you're having children, I couldn't withstand.

http://climatechange.worldbank.org/

What a bunch of blockheads these people yet must be.

But wait. Rescue is on its way.

http://notrickszone.com/2012/11/23/german-die-zeits-twisted-perception-doubt-being-fanned-worldwide-by-climate-godfather-marc-morano/

How interesting it is to observe how "mother earth" gives a male bovine excrement on all these theoretcial discussions on CO2 balance and so forth.

As I said, and this is said as a "inhabitant of mother earth" (quote Prof. Crisi) and unfortunate part of this big machinery. This little planet doesn't really need us and way beyond I am of venturing any kind of calculation to describe how all these intricate details behave to each other.

You know. Lawrence, a gentleman I greatly appreciate on this forum, made a wonderful statement recently in connection to another thread, saying:

>"Do you think you will answer it with a quick two words "current density" and skip off on your merry way?"


And that reminded me of the statement/questions coming from another appreciated gentleman, saying:

>"So what action of man is having more of an effect on Co2(sic!)? Man made emissions or raping the rainforest?"


And modifying Lawrence' most adequate question, expressing that - sometimes - "two words" prove too sparse for providing satisfying answers I wish to finish, saying:

Do you think you will answer it with a "quick two questions" and skip off on your merry way?*

Grazie ea presto, mio Signiore!

*EDIT:
46.00 - I hope you may not have got me wrong but noticed the final question asked, to be addressed to somebody else. So definitely no offence intended against you. On the contrary; I do much appreciate your input!
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-14-2012 22:26
I was in South Carolina in 1989 when Hurricane Hugo knocked the doodoo out of South Carolina and North Carolina. I was unable to see where the storm headed after that but I'm sure it went on towards NYC and other places.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-15-2012 00:42
How is the South Atlantic Anomaly treating you these days Giovanni?  What does a magnetic compass point to in San Paulo right now? It has grown a great deal in the last few years...I wonder if the theorists are correct about the poles flipping....there is good geological evidence for it.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-15-2012 01:33
The poles flip and it's all over for us.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-15-2012 05:10
Yes, and it would make it even harder to navigate from My out of date charts. Can You imagine 170 degrees variation ?:eek:
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 11-15-2012 12:34
Giovianni
Yes I believe there are changes occuring in our global enviroment and that they are affecting everyone's weather.
It is true that alot of people don't agree with this opinion. 

Personally I don't see how all the carbon and emmisions can not affect the climate but that is just my opinion.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 11-15-2012 13:18
welding?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-15-2012 20:51
Nahhh!!!It's mostly the cows if you really want to know!

Henry
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-16-2012 02:16
Methane is a much more effective greenhouse gas than CO2, but flatulance has both in it...:wink:
Parent - - By lo-hi (**) Date 11-16-2012 23:19
During the investagation of Krattoa they discovered that the polarity of the earth has changed a few times.The ash cloud  changed the world weather pattern for years.It also caused a 70 day growing season in New England.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-17-2012 22:30
Did you mean Krakatoa, East of Java, or Indonesian: Krakatau???
That huge volcano which erupted and exploded back in the 1880's with the explosive power of 200 megatons of TNT???:yell::yell::eek::eek::eek:
The explosion was so big that two thirds of the island disappeared!!! Is this what you're talking about???

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By SMTatham (**) Date 11-15-2012 14:28
Ever hear of the hurricane of '38?  A HUGE northeast disaster.
Parent - - By pipetommy (*) Date 11-15-2012 18:15
Is there any money for us to make out of this mess?
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-15-2012 20:48
A Whole bunch of loot!!!

Henry
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-15-2012 20:56
It's Cyclical alright! About every 50 give or take a few years, the weather cycles change and then repeats itself... Global Warming is happening but, It's not yet affecting the weather as some think although, there is empirical evidence that there is a slight correlation between the two.
It really depends form which perspective your looking from.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By lo-hi (**) Date 11-16-2012 01:06 Edited 11-16-2012 01:12
When i was in high school there was talk that if enough of the rain forest was cut that it could effect the ocean currents.This change in ocean currents could have extreme changes in global weather patterns.I dont think anyone could forsee the type of cutting that is going on now.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-16-2012 11:06
What you have just stated has more to do with the problem than most give it credit for. Co2 is not the enemy here, most forms of plant need it to survive. The plants convert C02 into oxygen via photosynthesis. Where there is insufficient plant life to convert the Co2 to oxygen, you will have an excess level of Co2 by default. Wholesale deforestation will create such a condition. The earth has lived through eons of massive volcanic activity spewing a variety of gases into the atmosphere, which is scrubbed out of it over time by settling, and taking it into the plant life. We know this from cores drilled all over the world.

The base problem with global climate change 'science', is that A) it's highly politized, B) through that politizing, any data that doesn't match their models is summarily thrown out. Actual science does not throw data out simply because it doesn't meet the expected criteria. In this particular case, it was discovered that the earth has been void of glaciers in it's past, that there were in fact cycles to this, and that carbon14 dating was not the only path forward for radiodating.
For instance, beryllium10 Be10, is created by cosmic/proton spallation of oxygen atoms in the upper atmosphere. We also now know that there is an inverse relationship between solar activity, and the levels of Be10 that are found in cores. During long periods of solar minimum, there is a distinct increase in the Be10 levels. Cores from the Maunder solar minimum show large increases. This btw was also the same time period of the mini ice age. circa 1645-1750.
What was lacking during that time, was evidence of other solar activity (flares, CME's etc). What this tells us is that there were strong proton events/solar winds during those times of solar minimum.

A prime example of the maunder minimum effects is in stradivarius instruments from 1680 through 1700. No one has been able to reproduce them. Further examination shows the tree rings are closer than any current wood available. During that minimum, there was an extensive low in the solar minimum, an increase in Be10 production, which btw, shows up in microscopic form in those instruments. They cannot be reproduced due to the density of those rings, as the trees of the time were experiencing extensive periods of cold weather preventing normal growth.

This solar activity has been measured and proven to be of a cyclic nature. The Co2 is therefore not a direct cause, but an indicator. The increase of Co2 during that time is more indicative of slow plant growth. That includes algea plants.

The global cooling created by the low solar activity, and the change in Co2/Be10 levels would have a direct impact on the thermalhaline currents of the oceans.
Therein is the tie back to the ocean currents.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-16-2012 20:14
Now Gerald!

What did I tell you (or did someone else tell you... I can't remember!!!) about getting too technical???
I mean look at all of those military secrets you hint of when discussing thermalhaline currents in the oceans...:lol::lol::lol::wink:

For all we know some "Commy General" has been following this forum and picked up on this info, and is using it against us to find out where our "Nuculir" Submarines are located throughout the Oceans of the world!!!:yell::eek::yell::eek::yell::lol::lol::lol::wink:

I do like what you said regarding the Violins and it really explains why I could never get the ones I made to sound anything like a Stradivarius!:yell::roll::eek::lol::twisted::wink::cool:

Keep it coming G!:wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-17-2012 02:40
Military secrets? :eek:

Thermalhaline currents are well known scientifically.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermohaline_circulation

As you know, that draw from the Atlantic, is what keeps the average sea level between the Pacific and the Atlantic at a ~30cm gradient, and what necessitates the Panama Canal gates among other things.

Not many outside of mariners who have plied the seas for years, and in some cases, not even them, realize just how important these currents are to the global climate.
I find it interesting that the global climate alarmist continue to ignore the fact that the sub polar gyre/North Atlantic current has been weakening.
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2004/0415gyre.html
Whether the trend is part of a natural cycle or the result of other factors related to global warming is unknown.

I have to throw the BS flag on that one.
They do know that it is a natural cycle. The problem is that it doesn't fit their models, nor do they like where that particular logic train leads them. They (global climate change folks, and their detractors both) choose to completely ignore it as it doesn't fit either camps 'logic' or 'models'.
However; it is the most logical path I've ever studied or read. It is also the only model that fits all the data, and not just the cherry picked data that both sides of the global climate debate choose to use. More specifically, the people who deny global climate change point to cores that support their argument, while global climate change supporters point to different cores that support their data. They both can't be right, or can they?

There is in fact on going climate change, it is in fact being affected by man, but in my humble opinion, not in the way either believes. Man has interrupted and delayed the onset of a natural cycle of chilling that began 3 decades ago. That does not mean they are the sole cause, nor even the primary cause, but rather delaying the inevitable only. Any high school student can study a bit and find massive amounts of data on earth and ice cores. They can study up and learn about the various climate proxies such as carbon14, Be10, and other radionuclides that are found in those cores that tell us what conditions were centuries, millennial, and eon's ago.

What the currently available data does say is that we are headed for a period of global cooling as part of a natural cycle that is based on luminance and and solar activity. Decrease the latter two and you decrease the energy delivered to the entire system. A decrease in that heat means eventually, it will flip into a cycle of deep freeze.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-17-2012 05:43
Gerald,

I hope you know that I was kidding??? I mean, the Stradivarius comment I made should have got you to think about whether or not I was serious at all in my last post... Did you catch that one?

I do agree that we have at most, delayed the inevitable... Meaning what you already so eloquently have pointed out that we are headed towards another Ice Age...

What's different I believe (then again I may be wrong) is that now we have a real opportunity to record the inevitable and since no one to my knowledge, has found any similar records from any civilization that previously inhabited the Earth, then the complete record of an Ice age and how it manifested from the beginning to it's welcome end, will be truly educational and hopefully put some of the current nonsense regarding Global Warming to bed... Although, I wouldn't be surprised if some folks in the future will interpret the findings and resurrect even whackier theories regarding Global Warming.

Btw, The US Navy did map most of the Thermohaline currents many moons ago which in itself is no longer a secret.:lol::wink::roll::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 11-17-2012 02:45
Back in the late '60s they predicted based on some data, that We were likely entering another ice age, or at least a climate cooler enough to be a problem. True or not, I don't know.

Shortly after that time, USA, UK & Europe made great effort to reduce particulate emissions.

Pan evaporation rates have been in use for well over 100 years to measure how much sunshine gets to the surface of the earth.
Some guy claims that after 9/11/01, when there were few jets flying, that pan evaporation rates increased, He says due to the lack of vapour trails causing shade. He claims that the rates returned to where they were before 9/11 soon after air travel resumed.

Could particulate emissions have caused the cooling they measured in the late '60s ?

Could reduction in particulate emissions be in part responsible for global warming ?

If the above 2 are possible, perhaps it was folly to reduce particulate emissions without reducing greenhouse gasses at the same rate.

Another issue is that We may be in a natural warming cycle, and even with massive reduction in greenhouse gas emission, and efforts toward re-forestation, warming may continue, and oceans will rise.

We will have spent all of our money, and more importantly all of Our time working on a solution that doesn't address the core of the problem, rising sea level.

If this is the case, coastal low lying areas around the world will experience flooding, and flooding from even minor storms.

The problem is that many of these areas are highly populated.

Some have said they should not have rebuilt coastal areas after hurricanes, as these areas continue to be subject to extreme storm damage. It has been suggested that these areas be kept free of development, and should be park lands.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-17-2012 12:27
Dave,

I think the late 60's cooling was related more to solar activity than anything else. I am aware of the predictions from ~1970. I am also aware that like now, none of them took serious account of solar cycles. That really boggles my mind. How do so many well educated people fail to understand such a basic concept? A source of energy/heat applied to a given body. It heats up. That source of heat is variable over time. Sometimes it's weaker, sometimes its stronger, with corresponding increases and decreases in temperature. Put a lid on a pan of boiling water (greenhouse emissions) but remove the source of heat, and that lid will only hold the heat in so long.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle_20
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-17-2012 13:37
Gerald, I guess what bothered me the most about the whole Al Gore/Global Warming debates/discussions/theory was that the very folks who were in charge of recording this temperature data were messing with the data...that troubles me.

I shared some data with you taken straight from Hansens' records and you could see the data change over time....that is nuts. How can a day in history start getting cooler or warmer by a few degrees...once the data is recorded it should be the same no matter what year you phsyically view the data beit the year 2004 or 2012, the data for a particular day in history should not be constantly moving. It should be the same temperature as the day it was recorded...yet in the data that I showed you, it was constantly moving.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 11-17-2012 14:53
Yes, I recall that. It moved upwards of 5c depending on the reading. Same point in time and location but somehow the thermometer was wrong because it didn't fit their 'model'.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-17-2012 23:58 Edited 11-18-2012 00:03
well like everything else that gets dumped on the public it revolves around $$$$$$$$  Couple of groups wrestling for control of public opinion to drive a tide of spending one way or the other.  Just like about anything else you get over the boob tube or in high distribution print.  F88767ing nonsense.  Most of the "scientists" playing in this pandering scheme are just pawns in a game way over their head.  There is your conspiracy theory of the day.  hahahahhahaha

There are a few periods in history where the sun had a tantrum and spewed a little hard on us...there are way more where it cooled down a lot (relatively) compared to its present output...during those cooler periods and during high volcanic output it got pretty grim on our little dirt ball.
Parent - By Northweldor (***) Date 11-18-2012 18:27
I would like to see the data referred to above. Will pm my email to you, if you can send it.
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 11-25-2012 13:43
This is an interesting topic,and has been used by politicans endlessly.Of the probelms you mention only one stands out as a man made, and correctable.The acid rain that has been killing the lakes and ponds in the northeast could  have been lessened by reduceing emissions.The global warming is a cycle of the earth that is getting a lot of help from man.When it is all lumped together it makes a nice campaign speech for some politician to use.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / New York disaster

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