Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Helia Arc
- - By eekpod (****) Date 02-05-2013 17:46
Why was is called this?
I haven't heard this term in a long time, and just stumbled on it for a potential fabricator to make some simple aluminum wledments for us and he had it on his web-site.  They also mentioned thev been in business since 1975 which is about the last time I heard this term :lol:
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-05-2013 18:05 Edited 02-05-2013 20:48
It was a trade name from linde. Used helium as a shielding gas for welding aluminum. I think. Been awhile since I learned that.

With helium, GTAW welding of aluminum can be performed using any constant current, dc output power source. Fixed a few pontoons with with a miller thunderbolt.

Have a good day

Gerald
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-05-2013 18:16
The term Heliarc is from the 1940's; I think around 1945.  It was the first or "original" TIG process, and that was the trade name it's inventor coined for the "marketing plan".
Parent - - By high_flex (**) Date 02-05-2013 18:42
They used helium as a sheild. They don't use it anymore, too expensive.
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 02-05-2013 18:54
We use it everyday.

     M.G.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-05-2013 19:46
I would watch someone who classifies his welding as Heli-Arc and not at least TIG since he is so out of the loop that he doesn't know it is GTAW.  I wonder if he truly knows it's operating perameters, has a WPS for his work and/or certifications that are current? 

I really doubt if he still has a 'Heli-Arc' machine.  It would be a collector's item if he did. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-05-2013 20:19
In the industries i have worked in it is a common term. Not the AWS srandard term, but still used by many. Kinda like MIG. Not even close to an acronym representative of the process, but most know what it is.

Who knows, maybe Id be hesitant on someone who DIDNT know what it meant. :)

Just kidding. They are all just words and mean nothing compared to the skill. Id take tbe guy who has no problem rooting a joint 3 or 4 tubes deep in a generating that has never looked at a wps over the welder that can tell that there was an incorrectly labelled variable on my WPS. Of course many can do both.

Have a good one

Gerald
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-06-2013 02:47
First off (all in good fun guys) some of you/us are really dating ourselves to even know the term and what it actually is.

Second, I agree with some of the sentiment and it is true for all processes as many welders don't know how to read a wps.  VERY sad but still true.  Doesn't make it right, but still true.  BUT, when looking at this from what I believe would be Chris' position as an inspector, I'm not sure he wants just someone who can put down a fair weld.  I know if I were asking and looking for someone to do some alum work I would want more than that.  My needs would be someone who knows code work and is able to accomplish it. 

I had something else but got interrupted, looks like my wife is planning a trip to England this summer.  Messed up my train of thought.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-06-2013 05:07
I am a bit old.

And I too agree to a certain extent. I would like to think all welders are highly trained individuals with a a strong background in theory and other aspects. But they are not. Knowing some terms and jargon is not code work. Most of what I have know and forgotten over the years has been useful. But not in making a better weld than the guy next to me with the same skill. I have worked next to some guys that have never cracked a book on welding but new what they were doing on the end of a tig rig. And should they need to be explained a term, I could explain to them that term in a short period of time, should I need their skill, I'm outta luck.

If I could weld as much as I knew about welding, I'd be much better than I am now.

I wouldn't sell anybody short for referring to a commonly used process by a old but common term than I would for someone not knowing a the meaning of that term.

But its really not all that serious (our views on the subject). I wish I could teach my students more about welding without sacrificing their time welding. I try to fit it all in but the arc time makes the difference, their desire to study the subject will make them knowledgable about it.

Anyway, have a good one and I hopefully didn't come on rude or anything. I love this forum!

Have a good one

Gerald
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-06-2013 16:09
Okay, no problems Gerald and I don't want there to be.  I think we are doing fine with the attitude.  And I don't know that we are actually 'disagreeing'. 

My bottom line is with advertising and especially the knowledge of anyone in charge of QC and especially the owner/manager/bidder/guy who lays out everyone else for the work.  If he doesn't have some knowledge of WPS's, but I need him to, then there is a problem.  When he advertises that he does 'Heli-Arc' then I have to wonder how informed and up to speed he actually is.  I'm not near as concerned about the welder on the floor as I am the man telling me my job is up to code when he hasn't a clue what code it is, what process it is, what a wps is, etc.

And I understand your time constraints when teaching.  There are many things you don't have time to get into.  But, if a student is actually going for a degree and taking more than a couple of classes then I would think there would be some classes that would include that type of knowledge to give them at least a view of codes, wps's, etc. 

Thanks for your time.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-06-2013 18:04
I do agree if its the business representative or qc. But I sometimes I change  the terms I am using for tbe situation.

The class I teach is open enrollement, at night,  and anyone can start at any time at any level. So classroom time is very little. I try to supplement their time with the course.weldingclassroom.org site that I am working on which has a pretty neat online glossary. Actually use AWS terms and definitions where AWS was gracious enough to provide copyright permission.

I think overall the education of teenagers and young adults has slipped in situations where college is not the path. If I would have had an "internet" back in the 70s then boy,  would I be something now.

Anyway, its all good.

Gerald
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 02-06-2013 13:52
When i finally went on my own my first shop machine was a Airco Heli welder II.Did some welding at a scrap yard and swaped for the machine. It was scraped because the hi-friek points were out of adjustment and stripped.While at a welding show and listening to the salesmen pump up the Airco brand i told him i had a machine that i couldnt get parts for.He did get me  a retro fit set but,made some refernce to Colombus and his boat trip.When realy geting into the pedal that machine would set off my anwsering manchine 15 feet away.When i used to weld with 3/16 7028 it would dim the  lights on my road.Have long since switched to inverters.
Parent - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 02-08-2013 03:06 Edited 02-08-2013 03:11
Esab still owns the "Heliarc" name. I have seen them use it on the "Genuine Heilarc" TIG torches within the last 10-15 years.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 02-05-2013 20:13
A Heli-arc root is what is sometimes used instead of a "P5" root.
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 02-06-2013 00:10
But it would be GTAW. I heard it all of them sometimes I still call it heli-arc & tig but it would all be the same.

   M.G
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 02-06-2013 01:57
Sure, it's GTAW in the classroom and on the WPS, but I've called it Heli-Arc for 35 years and that's the term we use in our shop.
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-06-2013 05:41 Edited 02-06-2013 05:44
I always thought that heli-arc was just weldin on a whirlybird hellochopper.   I dunno about this geetaw crap everybody is talking about, sounds like a donkey laughing at a tv show.:eek:
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 02-06-2013 04:17
Hoohoo, you gotta reeeealy be an old timer to of run P5. Everybody I know that used it is retired now.

There are fields where the term heliarc is very common.

JT
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-06-2013 05:09
Aint that dem rods what is dipped in salty vegetable matter and burns real deep! :)
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 02-06-2013 15:32
I think you're going back a few too many decades : )

P5 was a real rod, I know it was common in outside mainline work, and had a almost white coating. Back before hippy and shield arc 85.

J
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-06-2013 16:12
Watch it there JT, I probably resemble that remark  :lol:

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 02-07-2013 01:42 Edited 02-07-2013 01:48
Hey JT did you ever get plumbed up with Drillman????? :mad::mad: I got his number long ago ......Just never called him out on his B.S. (bet he can't even throw a code weld) glad somebody finally called him out......:yell::yell::yell::yell:( hate a guy that talks religon but screws anybody that falls for his STORY):mad::mad::mad::mad: By the way up in the northeast "heli-arc" has held on forever...even have had "engineers" call and inquire on it's availability and still see it in job specs. for aluminum rail:roll::roll::roll::roll:
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-06-2013 05:25
Also, Linde didn't patent the process, only the name. The process had been around for quite some time.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-07-2013 04:57 Edited 02-07-2013 05:27
And let's not forget about Russell P. Meredith, Frank Pila, Peter Scheller, Eugene Gorman...

Author: Jerry Uttrachi
(President of WA Technology)

Meredith Invents TIG:

Like MIG welding, there are a number of references sighting "inventors” of TIG  welding. However Russell Meredith, working for Northrop Aircraft, was the first to produce a system that was a true production tool applying for a patent in January 1941 (US Patent # 2,274,631, Figure below.)  He was concerned about meeting a critical national need of welding light weight aircraft materials.  In the first line of the patent it states; “My invention relates to welding magnesium and its alloys - - so relatively low melting point materials may be efficiently welded by an electric arc.”  He goes on to say that airplanes are being made of lighter materials and a more efficient method of joining these materials is needed.

Although Meredith's work was done with Helium shielding gas and a tungsten electrode his 4 patent claims are very broad only mentioning an "inert gas" and “refractory” welding electrode.  Validating that this was the first workable system and Meredith was the inventor of TIG; there is no prior art sited against his patent by himself or the US Patent Office.

Similar to the 1st MIG Welding Patent emphasizing the need for Laminar shielding gas flow,  Meredith states that the shape of the end of his TIG torch is designed to prevent oxygen (referring to air intrusion) from being drawn into the arc by the Helium outflow.  From a review of other devices shown in prior patents it is obvious the inventors did not understand the importance of shielding quality and what was required to produce Laminar flow.  Note: I encourage reviewing these patents, which is a reason the numbers are provided. There is a great deal of useful information available - and they are Free! (Unfortunately some of today's welding professionals do not understand that excess gas flow  creates turbulence that pulls air into the shielding stream. Depending the nozzle size, the flow rate causing turbulence is only somewhat higher than that used when welding! )

Linde Buys Patents and Heliarc Name:

Meredith and Northrop Aircraft called the welding process HeliarcR and sold the patent and trademark rights to the Linde Division of UCC.  Linde, unlike Northrop,  had the incentive to spend the needed funds and manpower to develop the process since  their business was manufacturing and marketing inert (and other industrial) gases.  They developed a whole series of Heliarc brand torches.  Frank Pilia who worked in the Linde Labs invented and patented a water cooled TIG torch (# 2,468,806  filed May, 1946;  figure below.)  Pete Scheller also worked for Linde and filed a patent in May 1951, # 2,685,631, for a torch where the head could be bent as needed for access to difficult to reach areas such as pipe welding (figure below.)

Some two decades after these early inventions, I  worked on various projects at the Linde Labs with Frank  Pilia and Pete  Scheller who were very creative engineers.   One, which I developed and patented, a  High Speed Electroslag system, Pete Scheller designed the mechanical tractor device.   Note, Linde (now renamed Praxair) sold their welding equipment and filler metal business in the 1980's and the Heliarc Brand products are now owned and marketed by ESAB.]
 

In addition to numerous torch patents, Linde developed systems to improve shielding and allow the tungsten electrode to protrude further from the gas cup for better visibility while still providing the needed excellent shielding.  Another colleague, Gene Gorman,  invented the first “gas lens” as it was referred to in his patent filed April 1960, US 3,053,968.   Item # 56 (below) shown in patent figure  upper left is referred to as a “baffle” with a varying number of holes.  As Gorman notes in the patent teaching, very small holes produced a longer coherent gas stream substantially without Turbulence.  One material mentioned was a 200 mesh screen. This produced much better shielding than the porous bronze type materials he evaluated.  When Gorman tested porous bronze materials he found the gas leaving this type of materials exited in various directions creating a more Turbulent gas stream!

Some companies are trying to sell porous material designs for a gas lens-it is no doubt much easier to make!  Wonder if they ran the Schlieren gas flow tests and made sufficient welds in various materials to validate its effectiveness, as did Gorman?  See Gas Lens Tests Below.  I shared an office with Gene when I started at the Linde Labs.  Gene was developing a three electrode TIG system for high speed welding of stainless steel in tube mills.  I was developing a three wire Submerged Arc System that welded large diameter UOE steel pipe for oil and natural gas transmission, which welded with 3000 amps!]
 

Gorman shows the resulting gas outflow in one of the patent figures (below) and quantifies his finding in a graph.  The graph (below) shows an improvement in the length of the coherent gas stream of 6 fold with a device he called a gas lens.

Another Linde engineer, Cliff Hill, defined an improved method of making a gas lens in his patent filed in 1961, # 3,180,967.  Cliff’s design (patent figure below) used multiple fine size screens stacked to provide the Laminar flow needed and as defined in the Gorman patent.  He found these very fine screens could be combined with a coarser, more ridged screen on the outside to improve the durability of the assembly.  This construction did not alter the ability to produce the desired long coherent gas stream.  This design is still used today to produce the best quality shielding gas lens..

Cliff Hill was a very dedicated engineer with many patents in the TIG torch area.  He was a very creative person and a man of few words. I recall a comment made by Cliff after a lengthy meeting we were having with engineering.  He said, "perhaps we should remove all the chairs in this conference room and the meetings won't last as long!"

Gas Lens Test

Engineers at ESAB recently tested several TIG gas lens designs after reviewing problems encountered by a major shipyard.   One type was a single piece made of a porous material and the other had multiple screens similar the genuine Heliarc design that ESAB markets but with fewer and coarser screens.

The most definitive test results were observed after carefully making welds with AC power in aluminum and noting the quality of the cleaning action.  The amount and consistency of cleaning with the porous, single piece material and the one with coarse screens was not much better than welds made with a standard non-gas lens collet.  The genuine Heliarc Gas lens with fine internal screens and a coarser cover screen, as originally patented by Hill (see below,) gave excellent uniform cleaning, much better than the other two types.

Gorman in his tests in the early 1960's reported in his initial patent (see below) explaining why he found porous materials did not work - the gas exits in various directions.  He discovered stacked fine screens provided the desired long, laminar gas stream.

Pressed porous materials and the use of fewer, lower cost, coarse screens are no-doubt much easier to produce and lower in cost than the properly assembled, more expensive fine screen design.  However the weld results showed this was false economy!

The gas lens allows the tungsten to be placed well outside the gas cup to increase visibility (the actual gas flow with and without a gas lens is shown below).

TIG Hot Wire

The TIG welding process saw a major advancement when an engineer at the Linde Labs invented TIG “Hot Wire.”  Gus Manz filed patent, 3,122,629 in February 1962.  It provided TIG quality with MIG deposition rates.  It was mostly (and still is) used for automatic installations.

Instead of slowing adding cold wire to the TIG weld puddle, the “Hot Wire” is heated just below the melting point and reacts just like squirting toothpaste into the puddle!  The wire exits the contact tip cold (T in the above schematic) and is heated by a power source (H) as it passes from the tip to the weld puddle with just enough power to make it "mushy" as it enters!  MIG metal deposition rates are achievable.  A subtle but important advantage is the heated wire burns off all volatile wire surface residuals before it enters the puddle making it an extremely low hydrogen process.

Another colleague, Fritz Saenger, in patent 3,588,464 filed in April 1969, defined a potentially very useful product, a manual TIG hot wire torch.  This torch design made it easy for a welder to add the “Hot Wire.”  It takes this integrated approach to achieve a system that will work in production better than simple add-on approaches.

Other TIG Innovations:

There were other innovations such as very high frequency power that constricts the arc and multi-electrode systems that increased speeds in production such as welding on stainless tube mills.  Flexible and silicon covered TIG torches were also introduced.  Today’s microprocessor controlled inverter power systems also make TIG welding easier to use and more controllable.

Note: Heliarc is a registered trademark of ESAB Welding & Cutting.

Capabilities and Background

Overview of Welding Consulting Capabilities:

Jerry Uttrachi, President WA Technology, LLC

Email: Jerry_Uttrachi@NetWelding.com

Capabilities:  Assistance with reduction in shielding gas waste.  Training welders and supervisors on the technical aspects of shielding gas control.  Welding process and consumable assessment, selection and automation.  Welding process training.  Extensive practical experience increasing welding productivity and submerged arc welding in pipe production.

Academic Background/Affiliations: Mr. Uttrachi has a Bachelors and Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering and a Master of Science Degree in Management from New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT).  He is a member of ASME and AWS. He was selected as an AWS Counselor for his leadership and training efforts.  The citation for that award  included the following wording; "- - he has trained a whole generation of salesman, end users and distributors in a wide variety of welding processes and equipment through personnel training and development of training materials."

Mr. Uttrachi was inaugurated as 2007 President of the American Welding Society at their annual Exhibition in Atlanta Georgia.  The photo left was taken at that ceremony with his "classmate," Harry Ebert (left in photo; who before retiring was chief welding engineer for Exxon) graduated as a Welding Engineer in 1948 then he and Mr. Uttrachi (center)  obtained Masters Degree in the Behavior of Metals at NJIT in the late 1960's.  Gus Manz (right), also an NJIT graduate, has numerous patents in the welding field related to the early power supplies for MIG welding and was the inventor of "Hot Wire TIG and MIG Processes."  Gus was a colleague at the Linde Development Laboratories.

Mr. Uttrachi has been a Trustee of the AWS  Foundation for the past 12 years and is currently Chairman of the Board of Trustees.  He has served on numerous  AWS committees including Filler Metals Committees, Technical Papers Committee, Handbook Committees, Marketing, Exhibition & Publication Committee which he chaired for 9 years, New Product Development and the Membership Committee.  He currently is a member of the Metric Practice Committee, Intellectual Property Committee and Conference Committee.  He is also a member of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers and serves as Chairman of his local Section.

Welding Industry Experience: During his 40+ year career in the welding industry, Mr. Uttrachi has managed a welding shielding gas and filler metals Development Laboratory for the Linde Division of UCC (now Praxair) and was Vice President of Marketing for L-TEC Welding & Cutting Systems and subsequently  ESAB Welding Products.  He is responsible for a number of developments in welding shielding gases, filler metals, equipment and welding processes and was granted a number of related patents.  Some of his work has been published in technical journals and trade publications including the AWS Welding Journal.

Patents:  He holds a number of United States and foreign patents in the welding process, welding equipment and filler materials areas including five recent patents including four concerning weld shielding gas conservation and weld quality improvement:

1.      Patent # 3,659,073;” Method of DC Constant Potential Submerged Arc Welding”

2.      Patent # 3,778,587; “Flux Cored Wire With 200 to 2000 ppm Oxygen”

3.      Patent # 3,854,028; “High Speed Electroslag Welding”

4.      Patent # 4,256,949; “Method For Submerged Arc Welding Of Pipe”

5.      Patent # 4,645,903; “Gas Metal Arc Welding (MIG) Process”

6.      Patent # 6,610,957;”Welding Shielding Gas Saver Device”

7.      Patent # 7,015,412; "Welding Shielding Gas Saver Flow-Control Device"

8.      Patent # 7,019,248; "Welding Shielding Gas Flow Control Device"

9.      Patent  # 7,462,799; "Welding Shielding Gas Flow Rate-Limiting Apparatus"

10.    Patent # 8,104,094; "Clean, Cool, Comfortable Welding Helmet"

Publications:

Published in The AWS Welding Journal:

1.      “Three-Wire Submerged Arc Welding of Line Pipe”; (See recent summary)

2.      “A New DC Power System for Submerged Arc Welding”;

3.      “Electroslag Welding Speeds the Making of Ships”;

4.      “Multiple Electrode Systems for Submerged Arc Welding”  (See recent summary)

5.      “Basics of Semiautomatic (MIG) Welding.”

6.      "NASCAR Race Team Demands Quality Welds.”  (See Article; includes 4130)   Also see "Welding 4130" or "Welding Race Cars" on this site.

7.    "GMAW Shielding Gas Flow Control Systems." (See Article)

8.    "Those Were The Days: The 1980's Decade of Change

Welding Design & Fabrication:

9.   “Selection of Submerged Arc Wire and Flux,”

10.   "What Do Robots Need in Welding Equipment,"

11.    Interview, “Bridge Welding Global Style,"

Trailer Body Builders Magazine

12.   "Solution to Weld Shielding Gas Waste."  (See Article in Magazine)

13.   "Texas Fabricator Reduces MIG Welding Shielding Gas Waste."  (See Article in Magazine)

American Institute of Steel Construction

14.   "Innovations in Welding and Cutting." AISC 1997 Conference Proceedings

Tube and Pipe Association / FMA

15.   "Managing GMAW Shielding Gas Flow " 2005 Pipe Fabricating Conference Proceedings

Welding in the World (IIW)

16.   "Gas Waste and Weld Start Quality Issues in Common GMAW Shielding Gas  Delivery Systems and Suggested Solution"

Production Experience: Mr. Uttrachi has worked with a number of industries in defining methods and approaches for solving welding problems.  The welding process developed for submerged arc welding of pipe has been installed in a number of countries around the world including; USA, Mexico, South America, Middle East, Japan, UK, and Italy.  The system is capable of producing high quality, high speed welds without interference from defects caused by arc blow.

http://www.netwelding.com/History_TIG_Welding.htm

http://www.netwelding.com/capabilities_and_background.htm

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 02-07-2013 11:47
Thanks for guys all the input and discussion.
I was out of the office for a day.
I'll be visiting this company soon and see what they have and what they can do.
Just a thought, maybe they don't have an IT guy/ department and when their website was set up, now he doesn't have anyone to change it? I don't know just a thought, I do know it's a small shop just a couple of guys.
Thanks
Chris
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-07-2013 11:58
Great information Henry! Thanks for your time.

Gerald
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-07-2013 14:22
Now that's the Henry we remember.  Thanks.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 02-07-2013 14:53
Nice find Henry!  Being a TIG head, it's nice to get a little more knowledge about it's history and places to look for previous work (read: inspiration).
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 02-07-2013 20:25 Edited 02-08-2013 11:20
BTW
I just found out they are using MIG not TIG for my project so it's a mute point :grin:

(notice i said MIG not GMAW) :lol:
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-09-2013 02:51
I have used a machine as an employee branded a heli arc...no memory of the brand but I reckon that brands my age.  That is such a dyed in the wool term it is common wherever your at I think.  I hear it today all the time...yall do heliarc...we need some heliarc on luminum.  etc.  Who gives a rats ass what the terms are unless it is on a wps or insurance form.  If you know what it means then just interpret it and go on.  The world is hard enough as it is without us dissecting technical language we all know by heart to disseminate amongst the unlearned.   Use what you know and be proud you can offer that knowledge freely to those who might be in the dark...it is a privilege.  REALLY...how much money are you going to make differentiating between GTAW, tig and heli arc.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-09-2013 05:50
Are you saying that you're offended by the post I made Tommy?

Henry
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 02-09-2013 05:57 Edited 02-09-2013 05:59
hahahaha  no not at all Hank!   Actually I thought it was pretty cool.

Just soapboxin no biggie
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 02-09-2013 11:30
I offered to STIG weld some stainless yesterday. Thats where I stick weld it 1st and if it has too many muscles, I tig over it. :)

I work in an environment with few requirements other than "fix it". And boy do I like it.

Gerald
- By jbndt (**) Date 02-09-2013 22:32
eekpod,

At least you didn't call it "short arc" or "micro wire" ...  :eek:

Cheers,
jb
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Helia Arc

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill