Welder Qualifications

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-17-2014 16:02 Edited 03-17-2014 16:04

If you are an employee of either one of those two entities then you are certified accordingly.

Just an assumption/opinion. Many years ago when i reviewed conract specific welding specifications that were for federal or suppliers of federal agencies I never came across any requirements for anything other than typical welder qualification requirements that were indicated by reference to a specific code. The individual contract may require customer rep witness or similar.

That whole certified term is one of the most misused and abused in the welding world.

And of course my experience is limited so I welcome Amy new and enlightening information.

Have a good day.

Gerald Austin

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-17-2014 16:16

I've heard guys throw around the term "State Certified" and claimed that they sent a card in every couple of years and get it renewed, but I have never actually seen one.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-17-2014 16:18

Over heard a conversation where they said that the welder was State certified and was able to weld on a particular bridge, however this bridge crossed state lines or something and that he could not tie the two spans together because he was not Federally Certified. This raised my curiosity so I had to ask....

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-17-2014 16:23

I think individual States may have DOT requirements or similar that require a state representative to be involved in review of qualification or actual qualification. That is just D1.5 work.

Mississippi did not have that requirement when I was involved with this.

By JTMcC

Date 03-17-2014 19:41

That's funny. But here's an easy fix, move the tie in weld 1/64" toward the "state certified" side and all is groovy. No federal quals needed.

If you look at all of the state dot requirements you'll see a lot of them require a few little somethings above and beyond normal D1.1/D1.5.

Oklahoma has actual state certs I believe in both boiler and structural lands. Texas has some too. New York City has a program that has to be adhered to ( they call it a NYC Licensed Structural Welder), NY State has muddy types of requirements on structural DOT welds. Of course Elay has the infamous LA City Cert, it seems to have gone mostly away in field work but is still used in LA City Approved fab shop work. It was the gold standard in all SoCal structural work, not so much anymore. Las Vegas has tightened up considerably on structural papers the last several years, semi adopting the LA methods.
Arizona Commerce Comission tries to go a little above and beyond API & ASME, with limited success.

Most state DOT's put at least a small amount of over and above the code requirements. Read thru them and it'll make you dizzy. But if you quote work in that state, you best make a few phone calls to avoid hangups on site.

Some states leave it all up to EOR approval. Many want a qual done in $tate.

Then when you throw in lightly or non enlightened on site state inspection, the one performing the work had really better have a handle on the local requirements and printed copies/code books on hand. Most are pretty easy to comply with but some are not. Some DOT inspectors (usually non welding specific inspectors) LOVE to stomp their little foot and shut down work, specially if you have out of state tags. If you are 100% compliant, you can backcharge that time and get schedule concessions when needed.

It's surprising, to me at least, the large number of state DOT's that only allow LoHi stick rod on bridge work. As if they were still living in the 1960's.

I'd be really interested in hearing all about these mythical (?) Federal papers.

JT

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-17-2014 19:51

I'm just curious to see how a person is to obtain these welding certifications.

By aevald

Date 03-17-2014 21:26

Hello John, Lawrence mentioned WABO along with the Wisconsin state certification. With WABO(Washington Association of Building Officials) there is a state welding certification process for structural welding that is done for Washington state through approved state testing agencies. The card can be renewed each year provided there are signatures on the continuity log portion of the card to verify welding with the process. Welders will "generally" perform an in-house test for each employer that they go to work for and then the employer will use the welder's WABO certification number from their card for any code requirements of the jobs that the welder performs work on. There is also a "common arc test" that is used by some of the boilermakers in Washington state, although, I know that this doesn't have to do with the OP's original question. Best regards, Allan

By JTMcC

Date 03-17-2014 22:11

Right, I'm aware of WABO, not aware of Wisconsin specs, and didn't mention it, probably missed several other states as well. Sorry 'bout that. I have welded in Wisconsin, but under federal pipeline safety dot specs/API/gas company requirements. Beautiful country and very nice people. They love their brats, eh?

Still agreeing with Jwright650, where, oh where do we get these "federal certs"? I wantem bad.

Pass several super secret background tests, done that, submit to homeland security for a rectal exam, weld the elusive and special "federal structural steel" to some unknown top secrete spec? Pass some weird psychological exam? Probably caint do that anymore. But I'm a felony free white male....if I had a muslim surname and had bombed a couple National Guard Armouries in the 70's resulting in one or two deaths, I'd be a cinch under the current admin. Heck, they'd almost make me the Sect. of Defense!
Maybe I'll change my name to Jokin Tiomas Muhammed. Or Muhammed Ali. That'd get me all federal certified : ( and then I could weld ANYTHING)!
No, I guess not. Just keep trying to trudge along as an American Contractor (endangered species).

I'll have to watch out for those bridges that cross the mystical/mythical state border : ).

John

By aevald

Date 03-17-2014 22:47

Hello John, just realized that I was likely directing towards one of two John's. Little slow on the uptake today, sorry about that.

The whole state/federal "certification" thing is a bit cumbersome I would think. From my perspective there are just too many geographical/situational considerations for it to work out very well. Not to mention all of the jurisdictional items that all of those folks with "power" currently would be robbed of. Washington state already has some things attached to the WABO system that I am not wholly in tune with and I am a WABO examiner. Anyways, I am following this thread to see where it goes and what sorts of comments will end up being discussed here. Have a great day, Allan

By JTMcC

Date 03-18-2014 01:15 Edited 03-18-2014 01:27

I wasn't assuming you were talking to me.

I don't have that epic aws primadonna forum persona : ), I've never stomped my little foot in protest and threatened to take my unmatched brilliance away : ).

Just throwing out my annonomous opinion. Based on real highway experience. I understand this forum exist's more on interpretering others printed word and the slicing and dicing of the written word of others rather than real applicable experience.

But every now and then a little real world application experience is a bit helpfull imo, not to the primadonas of inspection of course.
Take it or don't. I have nothing to offer in inspection theory world, I only work where the arc meets the iron : ), by choice. Others (many others) can parse the nth participle of the written code : ) and pontificate about their self percieved magnificance : ) and the indignance of a public forum DARING to accept an advertizer without first begging their approval.

I just weld junk. And make as much as possible doing it.

JT

Not for sure, but just in case you thought I was assuming I was a "AWS John". I'm just John, out in the NW AZ mountains.

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-18-2014 01:16

You know what is wrong with WABO that I have ran across Allan? The WABO card lists all processes. When you sign the card for one process, it does not give a place to list which process was used. So If a guy was qualified with more than one process, which I see often, and only uses one process in the last 6 months and you sign his papers, he gets his qualification extended for all processes.
Carl

By aevald

Date 03-18-2014 02:20

I was thinking of that as I was making an earlier reply. Yes, you are right, whether you are welding with one or all of the listed processes the sign-off areas don't specify one way or another. So I would certainly consider that to be drawback. Best regards, Allan

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-18-2014 01:45

Allan,

The WABO you speak about above, do they have their own document that addresses materials, qualification ranges, acceptance criteria, and other information?

Is the WABO for every industry or do they only have one specific industry sector they govern?

Thanks

Gerald

By aevald

Date 03-18-2014 02:27

Hello Gerald, yes they do. But they take the majority of their form and fashion directly from AWS D1.1 and then add a few things, change a few things, and otherwise include various additional components. Some of the testing criteria is a little tighter for WABO than the AWS ones. If you go to www.wabo.org you can navigate through some of this information and kind of get a picture of how it all works. They are structurally oriented and not generally associated with piping, boilers, vessels, or other items of the like. Their pipe certs are aimed at cans and piles for structural purposes, no pressure or material transmission. The structural is seismic as well as general. Hope that helps a bit. Best regards, Allan

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-18-2014 03:03

Thanks. I'll take a look at it. Interesting that they have their own. I didn't realize it was a standalone organization.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-18-2014 12:10

I did look through the site some. Are there any state employee's involved with the testing process ?

By aevald

Date 03-18-2014 14:50

Yes Gerald, all of the community colleges that offer testing are using their welding labs and instructors to administer the testing. There are also private companies that offer testing as well. The WABO organization oversees and dictates how this is to be done and are responsible for the issuance of cards and the qualification/auditing of the agencies/companies/facilities doing the testing. Best regards, Allan

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-18-2014 15:29

Thanks. Similar to the ATF program ?

What I am wondering is this. Does the state assume the full responsibility for the qualification and supporting documentation for the "State" certified welders?

Reading through the standard briefly it appears it's just another entity created to document a process (welder performance testing) that we as welding professionals should know how to do.

I noticed no Reference to D1.5. Any ideas why it was excluded other than the allowance for grinding etc ?

Thanks for your responses. The standard looks like something I would love to sit down and read fully.

Have a great day.

Gerald

By Blaster (***)

Date 03-18-2014 19:04 Edited 03-18-2014 19:12

WABO is a WA state non-profit corporation.

WABO testing can only by done by an approved WABO Welder Examiner.

An approved WABO Welder Examiner can only conduct testing at a WABO approved test site.

Examiners do not have to be state employees to be approved.

Test sites do not have to be run by the state to be approved.

Edit to add: WABO 27-13.3.2 lists those eligible to become approved WABO Welder Qualifying Agencies.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-18-2014 19:25

So it looks more like the facility is "certified" by the state and not the welder.

By Blaster (***)

Date 03-18-2014 19:45

I don't see that the state is in the loop, as the WABO organization is a non-profit corporation.

WABO actually produces and issues the certification cards to the welder. The Approved Welder Examiner, at an approved test site, tests the welder and forwards the appropriate WABO test record forms to WABO. WABO handles all card issuance, renewals, continuity records, long term historical records, disciplinary actions for fraud, and so forth.

By aevald

Date 03-18-2014 19:54

Hello again Gerald, likely a case of semantics when you try to follow the train of command and how to explain it. As a WABO examiner and the one responsible for our particular testing site, myself or my partner, who is also an examiner, are one of the two responsible for performing welder testing and then supplying the necessary documentation to the WABO office for them to provide a card to the welder who has completed the testing. From that point on the WABO office and the welder are the ones who deal with re-upping the certification.

We are also responsible for seeing to it that our site meets the criteria to be considered an approved testing site. We have to meet particular requirements and keep records and other things in order to continue in our testing capacity. I am scheduled for an audit as of tomorrow and will be busy making sure that everything is in order. Best regards, Allan

By Blaster (***)

Date 03-18-2014 21:37

Good luck on the inspection tomorrow Allan.

I think one of the better things WABO does is require the test site to hold all test specimens and coupon remnants for 6 months. There is inherent accountability and fairness in this. IMO it makes it much less likely that an Examiner would fail someone who should have passed or passed someone who should have failed.

I have seen examiners (not WABO) pass stuff that was "good enough" that didn't actually pass the written criteria, and then simply throw out the pieces.... no accountability.

By js55

Date 03-19-2014 12:12

I thought WABO was a cheap tequila. I see the kids ordering it all the time. Cabo Wabo. I prefer Patron or Don Julio myself.

By aevald

Date 03-18-2014 20:18

Thanks Blaster, that is a very important point that I apparently overlook quite often. They are a non-profit that is Chartered by the state so I often make that association. Best regards, Allan

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-17-2014 17:19

A search of the US GPO website for terms related to welder certification revealed nothing but references however there were 100s of hits.

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-17-2014 18:23

Thanks Gerald.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-17-2014 20:21

Wisconsin has "state test conductors" who must pass a D1.1 based exam.

Washington state has WABO requirements that are a bit more detailed than Wisconsin.

Two examples that come quickly to mind

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-18-2014 00:00 Edited 03-18-2014 00:09

I think each state may have rules but I imagine the rules are from an existing code.

Meaning a state doesn't have its own code. But again I'm batting this in my limited existence.

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-18-2014 12:05

Are the state test conductors you speak of employed by the state ?

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 03-18-2014 12:33

Gerald in a similar vein,
I reviewed a quote recently where they need some anchor bolts straight beam UT'd, and in there a blurb read...
UT personnel shall be qualified in accordance with ASNT SNT-TC-1A Level II and certified by VDOT Materials Division.

I'm waiting for a response to an RFI regarding what is required to be certified by VDOT Materials Division.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 03-18-2014 15:16

Not employed by the state in Wisconsin.... Just examined.

Need to ask Allen about WABO

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-18-2014 18:53

Not employed by the state. You can look in WABO standard 27-13 for information on how to become a WABO examiner. You have to pay the coin and jump through a few hoops. You also have to qualify through WABO (again, coin and an interview) and have your ICC certifications to become a special inspector in the state of Washington. you can look up the registered special inspectors here https://wabo.memberclicks.net/assets/SI/si%20list%2003-11-2014.pdf and find out what different classes of inspectors there are.

By ctacker (****)

Date 03-18-2014 01:19

I would imagine the state certification is a state entity like WABO, and the federal cert is from an AWS accredited testing lab. (just guessing)

By michaelf Date 03-19-2014 23:29

I once had a State of Ct. G8 welding license. I went to a nuke shutdown and was asked if I wanted to go another unit under construction when the shutdown ended which I did, they gave me a copy of my weld tests and I took a State written test and got my license, you could work on repair work without a license but not new work. Older guys told me the license was to keep out of state people off their jobs. I paid my fee with a personal check and on the memo part wrote in extortion, I still have that check today.

By 803056

Date 03-22-2014 00:39

Everyone pisses and moans about the number of unqualified people welding. When the state tries to do something, i.e., the license, you call it extortion?

Give me a break.

Al

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 03-22-2014 11:18

Unskilled is a better term.

By yojimbo (***)

Date 04-05-2014 17:21

I am a WA State resident for 30+ years and WABO certified since 1989, qualified 6G unlimited, blah, blah, blah..blechk. Here's my beef with WABO- as a few have mentioned it is a private non profit corporation. Now just because it's a non profit doesn't mean that someone is not profiting from it's existence. People recieve salaries. I expect they pay themselves well. They pay themselves for having created another level of juristiction. WABO does not create a Code standard, they simply adopt AWS code and reference AWS as a WABO "Standard". I will of course concede that having welders qualified to AWS code standards is a needed thing. What bites is that 1]WABO is not recognized beyond the borders of it's Pacific NW "juristiction" and 2] some job specs I bid will require welders be WABO certified or "certified to a local juristiction" and have refused to accept Welder Qualifications performed/tested and signed by an AWS accredited testing facility. Soon after starting a small fabrication business in 2001 I acquired the AWS Welder Qualifications for the weld processes I generally employ: SMAW, FCAW. I did this for their recognized legitimacy. I have had these qualifications rejected by the EOR at a pre construction meeting because the contract documents stated "local juristiction" which the TPI insisted be maintained as the standard. Had to re-qualify all my certs to present a WABO card for AWS work. Time consuming, expensive and annoying. WABO strategicaly located their office in Olympia [state capital], originally nothing more than a trailer, now I'm fairly sure their enterprise afford better digs non profit or not, it implies a State authority when in fact it's a private enterprise that benefits private individuals. Things have improved somewhat in the lat 30 years, for instance, for the better part of 2 decades I can remember WABO provided an Aluminum Welder Qualification offered at WA vocational schools. How this was done has always been a mystery to me because as we know there are no pre-qualified AL WPSs available in D1.2. Calls to WABO offices in the past regarding this issue were never answered. The improvement I mentioned above is the removal of this AL Welder qual and the current use of AWS literature and pre-qualified AWS joint figures provided on their website as their "standard". It boils down to politics and politics is always economic. They got their place at the trough and they're gonna keep it. Someone was clever enough to "create" a "local juristiction" and spent the next 30 years making a nice piece of change from it using a code they had nothing to do with creating and early on didn't even know how to follow.
OK. My grievance has been aired. My bladder feels so much better, but my little foot hurts now from stomping so hard. I suppose I should give the clever bastard who was first at the trough more credit but he's eating well enough I'd reckon.