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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / I beam info
- - By TRC (***) Date 11-13-2014 18:34
Putting an I beam in a shop.  Will have two one ton chain fall on trollies. What size beam is required? Will span 30'.
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 11-13-2014 20:29
ask local building and planning
matter of fact they must approve it
they make the rules
not aws, asme or anyone else
I can tell you how I would do it, but might be an overbuild for the locality
you need approved plans and prints
start with a local engineer
they will know the local code
hope this helps
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-13-2014 20:56
If it's in your shop? Home shop? Or actual client/business shop?

If client, as kcd said, engineer.

Your place, refer to farm code, the "overbilt section" fig. 2.1.31-A
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 11-13-2014 22:29
I really like you
your so right and so wrong
30 foot is probably permanent in ground
need footings, inbeds, rebar the whole 9 yards
need building code for approval
been there done that
get an engineer
40 years ago you could have got away with it and been better than code today
now to much redtape
just my thoughts
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-14-2014 01:55
I would not even attempt that on my dad's farm up in OR without engineering.

Two one ton lifts spanning 30' with no calculations and stamped methods of attachment.  We're not just talking about the beam for the trolleys,  how about the columns and attachment connections?  Depth of base, embedment, bracing, and more. 

You have the potential to be lifting 2 ton at 15' from each end.  That much weight plus the possibility of side motion will require a fair amount of engineering.  Not something to do by guess and by golly.  Especially if it isn't for yourself. 

I know.  I probably just started the assault of the year on inspectors wanting to overdue everything.  But really?  Don't take this lightly.  And then, if you still want to go it alone, don't come here and ask for free advice that may get you killed and the family comes to us and sues because we said it would work.  Anyone who would jump into that and put themselves and AWS at risk for a lawsuit needs their head examined and be banned from this forum.

Current manuals that will have suggestions about beam sizes and ratings for weight that you could use in the past are forbidden topics in legitimate shops.  My insurance would have chewed me up and spit me out if they saw that in my reference library and knew I actually told someone such and such would work.  Even worse if I designed it and did the work off my own calculations. 

Nope, I hope you understand, but not this guy.  I value my few meager possessions and my limited freedom that I still enjoy in this great land.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 11-14-2014 08:15
Brent
agree 100%
to the OP
try naicranes.com
that is their business
might have some prints for sale:wink:
they do charge $$$
always remember everything has a price
we share here and learn, but we all need to pay the bills
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 11-14-2014 11:35
TRC,

This is just one of many out there and it may be helpful.  Just scroll down to the bridge beam selection chart... 

http://www.harringtonhoists.com/products/pdf/options/Options_Tech_Data.pdf
Parent - - By TRC (***) Date 11-14-2014 11:49
Brent, "banned from this forum". Really?
Thanks Scott.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 11-14-2014 13:08 Edited 11-14-2014 13:19
Not sending kids to the moon and back. Hyperventilating over a hoist just another sign of too many paper pushers allowed to eat regular. Not saying I wouldn't look at different designs and get an engineer to check my plan or stamp it if it's commercial, but I don't think you need a note from the pope to lift something.
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 11-14-2014 13:43
I would never accept a note from a 78 year old man who wears a dress.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 11-14-2014 14:24 Edited 11-14-2014 14:28
The couple of trolly rails I've been involved with on installation were purchased as a unit from a reputable manufacturer.
The "I" beam itself that the trolly runs on was NOT your off the shelf I-beam. They appeared to be made of a special alloy (spark test indicated extra carbon judging by the sparkles). Upon close examination, the flanges of the iron is of a unique angle specifically designed for single flange loading.
I'm not a structural engineer but what I am saying is that when you look up load ratings for I-beam, it is rated for the load to be applied the full distance THOUGH both flanges and the web and is utilising torsional forces also into that design. 
Simply attaching a rolling carriage or trolly to the lower flange does not in any way mean 1/2 of the I beams' rated load can be applied to ONE FLANGE.
Yes, I was raised in the Ozarks, and have pulled my share of engines with a come-a-long (or rope and pulley) and homemade lifting hook bolted to the intake manifold in the carburator holes from a tree branch.
If using this method, I highly recommend load testing the tree branch first. Our preferred method for the load test was to leave the motor mounts attached. Click on the come-a-long until the front wheels come off the ground. Now if the branch doesn't sag too much or start creaking and snapping, you can be assured it "Should" hold the engine... Either that or if we could find/drag Bufford out of the bar and have him swing off the branch, then it was good to go and would hold a 454...
Yes, one must be scientific when drinking beer and rebuilding small block Chevys for the county road dragstrip running the back side of Festus, MO.

The above in italics is for entertainment purposes only!
Parent - - By S J (**) Date 11-14-2014 15:15
@Superflux:

Let's not accuse any of the replies on this "thread" of being "ruses? - whatever a "ruse" is; and your advice is something for some "information seekers" to "consider" as well.

If the off-the-shelf units were successfully load tested, then perhaps at the end of the day, they will serve those well who do not have needs related to high frequency use.

However, as we are perhaps aware, higher carbon content might help or hurt - depending on on the effect on the material ductility limits.

But, since this thread is perhaps discussing a "Farm Code" application, cyclic loading might not be a concern for some.  And, is the shop in a state with voluntary (non-OSHA) safety requirements?

Oh, and some of us are perhaps not sure about what happened to the other replies that we can neither confirm nor deny were deleted.

But, a thirty foot beam span with no supporting columns might not be a wise choice.
Parent - By yojimbo (***) Date 11-14-2014 15:39
One of the first projects I ever bid was for the same scope: 30' span, two 1 ton trolleys.  Local engineering outfit gave me an off the back of a napkin calc for a 17" beam with a channel cap.  Owner said "Too big, not enough clearance".  We could have cut the beam size to about 1/2 that by constructing a cross beam at mid span over the top of the load carrying beam with it's own base plates, footings ect.  I agree with Stringer.  No special dispensation needed if it's for your own shop and use, for a commercial client however, the 1500-2000 bucks it would cost for my consulting PE to calc it would be part of the cost.  Living in fear of lawyers or penury is a bad life choice.  It's a decision to surrender to the status quo and become mulch for the power structure that would describe our reality for us.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 11-14-2014 17:18
sj,

I replied...
"The couple of trolly rails I've been involved with on installation were purchased as a unit from a reputable manufacturer."

In both cases I was modifying them under the direction of the Chief of Engineering. So, I had a product purchased and designed for this application and the approval of a professional engineer to modify and relocate such system.
I neither purchased nor installed the original units, but was given the installation instructions so the bolts could be torqued to specs.
The unofficial spark test was a subjective observation made during the retrofit process.
When did I ever use the word "RUSE"?
Nor do I interpret any advice in my comment, only observations.
I'm hurt... I need a drink...
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-14-2014 16:25
Funny, I see critical comments about my post but NO suggested beam size from you.
Parent - - By lo-hi (**) Date 11-15-2014 00:33
Figure out what might work, borrow the beam from a friend. If it doesn't bend, keep it . If it does bend, cut it for scrap and tell him it was junk anyway. Buy bigger beam and repeat till it doesn't fail.
Parent - By WeldinFool (**) Date 11-17-2014 19:19
Now that's the best suggestion I've seen yet on this thread!
- - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-14-2014 16:50
It is interesting that no one even cares that the issue has not been addressed if this is for personal use or for someone else.

Those who would offer advice, which I don't see a single post with a beam size in it, really need to be aware of the legal responsibilities they are subjecting themselves to.

Being critical of others just because we choose to watch our backs and protect ourselves, families, and even AWS more than you are concerned about does not demonstrate how we are over the top cautious, but only how extremely unconcerned the opposing opinions are.  If you want to tell him beam sizes then go for it. 

And yes, I do believe that those who would should be banned from this forum.  Making engineering decisions on this forum will bring AWS into any resulting lawsuits and any who would throw caution to the wind and do so are not being considerate of all the obligations surrounding such postings. 

What anyone decides to do for their own personal projects is one thing, but if it is such a no brainer item, why was the question even asked?  And, why has no one given a specific beam size?  Sounds like a bunch of hypocrites just trying to stir up more arguments between welders and inspectors, of which I am and always will be both. 

Lawsuits in this current time period are not something to take lightly.  They are very real.  Everyone is looking for any possible way to be taken care of by others for life.  Wait till you are either on a jury or on trial for one of these.  They are not fun.  I do not and will not compromise any of my peace and safety on a question with so little details and such obvious opportunity for problems.  This was not a question that asked about the clarification of a weld symbol or an item of code understanding.  It is, pure and simple, an engineering question and I am not an engineer.

It's good to know we have so many engineers on here.  It appears they don't want to give away free advice though as they have not said what size beam they would recommend. 

Brent
Parent - By S J (**) Date 11-14-2014 17:35
And, let's hope that this thread is done unless some unknown person wants to go inspect a highway bridge somewhere out there and divide by what???  And, how many lanes are on that road?  And how old is the bridge?  And, what was the steel spec?  And, how accurate was that traffic count?  And, the budget???  And expected life span???  And, were there any cross members???

I agree sir, questions like this are best left unanswered by non-profits - or referred to the proper resources - like a designer with the AISC load and deflection table for common beam sizes.  Or, is that old school?

Perhaps wise folks will concede that your advice is the best comment Brent.

My bad for violating the MLA style guide.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-14-2014 21:09
Brent, Everybody else... Anything that's written in here is not subject to any liability issues because the AWS already has a disclaimer so the AWS has CIA already... For example:

By SiteAdmin (*) Date 08-10-2005 12:08 Edited 06-30-2010 09:48

"AWS operates the Forum as a free service for site visitors. Postings on the AWS Forum are the opinions and comments of specific individuals, and may not reflect the position of AWS. Procedures and processes posted, as well as any advice given, are not sanctioned by AWS, and AWS makes no representation or warranty as to their validity, nor is AWS liable for any injury or harm arising from such entries or from reliance on any entries. Participants should independently verify the validity of information prior to placing any reliance thereon."

Everybody get that? GOOD! Now let's all have a cumbaya moment and don't forget to breathe.:eek::yell::twisted::yell::roll::lol::yell::grin::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 11-14-2014 21:28
GREAT!
Thanks for the reassurance Henry
I was afraid someone was going to pull an engine and sue me when their intake manifold broke.
Parent - - By S J (**) Date 11-15-2014 00:04 Edited 11-20-2014 20:43
Sorry for offending you Superflux.

I meant we, or myself - depending on how one wants to look at it.

I hope you enjoyed a beer.

My favorite is O'Doul's - alcohol free.  To each his own.
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 11-15-2014 01:23
I apologize. My earlier post sounds distinctly devil-may-care. I was having a drink at the computer.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-15-2014 05:34
I won't offer a beam size because,

1- I don't have my own shop to even put a 30' beam into

2- Don't have funds sitting around to purchase said beam, ok, maybe I do but lack #1 and flat enough land to actually place a shop.

3- Not going to work my brain and research when I lack the two reasons listed above. It's not worth my effort to spend that time figuring out what to suggest to others. I'd rather sit around and stare at the wall. Besides, I'm on vacation until January 1st so my mind is set on working on my machine, hanging out with the family and goofing off for the next month and a half.

30 foot span, had that in my shop that I had for 7 months last year. Seems like it was a 12" beam (pre-existing) of some sort of thickness. Might have been 14" but really don't even know. Bought the new truck had to swap my welder from one to the other. Picked up the machine with a green strap looped around the beam and a 1 ton chain fall.

Like Superflux I've done my fair share of engine swaps and even truck cab swaps from the limbs of trees. Maples are better that black walnut unless the black walnut is some 60 years old with good heavy limbs. Weeping Willows, work in a pinch but really need to watch them. A 460 Ford and C6 tranny hanging off a Weeping Willow limb and it starts to crack, work faster. 

30 foot span with two one ton trollies. Perhaps a column in the center at 15', less span, less worry. My shop,(hypothetically speaking) no worries. A job for a client, call an engineer. What size beam? Don't know, don't care, not going to happen so as I said, not worth an ounce of effort to even think about.

Basically, if you are going to do this in your shop(my disclaimer) you are responsible for your own research and what you consider safe by your standards. I'm not an engineer either that's why it would probably cost me twice as much to do it on my own as it would if I would just call an engineer. If you don't know or don't feel safe, call an engineer.
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 11-15-2014 11:52
Vacationing until January?! Really?

Thought you would go squirrely after a few days with an itch to climb something really really tall to weld on. :wink:

Tyrone
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-15-2014 23:32
Really, really!! LOL!

I have plenty to do around the house and plenty of laziness to catch up on!

If I feel the itch to climb I'll hit the gym and can take out my frustrations at the rink on some goalie by launching some biscuits at him. Next month and half is about playing hockey, working on my machine, house and baking!! Haha!!
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 11-17-2014 11:58
I always thought you had to have a screw loose to play net.  Ah well, nice to have a target and get a good burn on the lungs.
Enjoy your down time. Go! Leafs! Go!
Tyrone
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-17-2014 12:11
I actually used to play goalie!! LOL! Might explain the climbing. Play out now cause I don't want to spend the thousands on goalie gear!

Leafs are ok, but have always been a......
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 11-17-2014 14:08
Shawn,

I tried to watch hockey during the Olympics with my wife.  When they gave out the medals, she said “There's nothing wrong with bronze.  “It's nothing to be ashamed of at all!” But when I told her that she was the third best girlfriend I'd ever had, she went absolutely mental on me.

And by the way, catching up on laziness may not necessarily be a good thing.  My wife called me lazy the other morning, so I decided to walk around the block twice.  It was a Lego block, but you get the point.  I never thought I'd be the type of person who would get up early in the morning to exercise.  And I was right.  I just wish she’d lighten up with all the talk about laziness.  It bothered me so much last night, all I could manage to do was to just lean on the mantle in front of the fireplace and cry.  And get this…. she actually had the nerve to ask me “What’s wrong now?” and I said “Can you please come over here and check me? I think I’m burning.” Then I said, “Don’t worry.” “When I die, I'm going to leave everything to you.” And she said, “You’re already doing that, you lazy SOB.” She just assumes that I’m lazy and that I’m unwilling to finish anyth

This has been a problem for me ever since I got out of high school.  In all honesty, I believe that there was a demonic force at work in those days.  I can remember playing the Led Zeppelin song “Stairway to Heaven” over and over, backwards on my record player.  And if I listened close enough, I could hear my mom yelling in the background “Why don’t you get off your lazy a** and look for a job!” I’m actually embarrassed that the problem is still with me today.  I even think that the buttons on the tv remote are too far apart.  I do realize that there's no excuse for laziness, but if you find one, please let me know.  Believe it or not, I’m trying to get better and I’ve actually started this “to do list”…

1. Make a “to do list” (check).
2. Check off the first thing on the list (check).
3. Realize that I’ve already accomplished the first two things on the list (check).
4. Reward myself with a long nap (in progress).  I don’t know if it’s actually a reward, because the last time I took a long nap, I woke up and I couldn't move at all.  At first I was worried that it might be sleep paralysis, then I remembered that I'm just lazy.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-17-2014 17:11
At least you have gotten to making your "to do list". My pen is in my briefcase next to my chair but just can't seem to generate the energy to reach over and get it. I'm hoping for some divine intervention, un-divine would be fine as long as I didn't have to do it. I won't even get into how far away the notebook is, geez, must be a foot!

My wife was on me last night. Said, "since you have all of this free time on your hands I guess I don't have to worry about rushing home to cook dinner and wash dishes". I told her that "yes, I do have spare time but she does such a fine job at dinner and the dishes that I hate to interject myself and cause more strife in her life". For some reason she didn't smile. I then asked her how she expected so much of me as to make dinner for everybody, I'm so lazy I don't even like making anything for myself to eat. So on top of actually getting to making my to do list I have found that I need a moment....or a day to four to contemplate what she said. I plan on getting to that contemplating thing right after I watch some more T.V. Although the remote is about 18 inches away so I just sit here and suffer while the family is out to school and work. I wish somebody was here to push the "Guide" button for me.

I really didn't see a hockey game until 5-10 years ago when the NHL started having more strict penalties. When I was growing up we usually were watching boxing matches when suddenly a hockey game would break out.

I've finished lots of things on my to do list already though, albeit in my mind but I have it all planned out at least. The only problem is finding time for my wife to accomplish the list while I sit in the chair and stare at the T.V. She is so busy all the time with work, family and activity's. I'm sure I can find time for her to do the little things, mow grass, fix the roof, mend the fence.

Wow, all this typing and thinking has really tired me out. Think I'll take Mark Twain's advise, "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow", except for the nap.
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 11-17-2014 17:57
I don't mean to drift away from the original post, but I tried boxing recently to help increase my stamina.  The trainer at the gym suggested that I try skipping to get in better shape.  After doing that for an hour, he handed me a rope and said, “Use this. You won't look as gay.”  I actually ended up in a couple of fights and I have some framed pictures hanging on the wall in my office.  I hung them sideways so that it looks like I’m standing up.  When someone looks at them and asks me why my eyes are closed, I just blame it on the flash.  I hated the stupid questions they always ask in the post fight interviews.  “After managing to move around and avoid contact with your opponent for the first two rounds, you got knocked out seven seconds into the third round.  What happened?” Well, it’s still a little hazy, but I have to admit that what my opponent managed to accomplish in the third round was due to a brilliant piece of strategy.  First, he punched me in the face, repeatedly, and then I fell down.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-17-2014 18:16
Don't think going off topic is relevant anymore on this post. Half of us are retards for considering fab'ing our own overhead lifting devise, the other half....???
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-17-2014 23:09
Retards for getting involved in such a ridiculous conversation.. :lol:
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 11-17-2014 23:25
LOL! You might be right Brent!

Cheers!!

Shawn
Parent - By Tyrone (***) Date 11-19-2014 11:56
Goalie, climbing, Habs,  now I know you're nuts!  :wink:
Tyrone
Parent - - By S J (**) Date 11-20-2014 21:10 Edited 11-20-2014 21:13
Good advice CG71.

And, more than a beam size is necessary to arrive at the best possible answer.

Assuming that both chain falls are on the same beam, then the worst case load might occur near the center point.  Now, if he is talking about metric tons, then he might need to support a load of 4,000 lbs times the necessary safety factor to prevent shear failure.

Next, the budget must be considered.

Followed by an analysis of the available material options.  Some suppliers specify the necessary data related to material strength, and others do not.  The moment of inertia needs to be calculated - if not provided in the supplier data sheet.

Then a shear and bending moment diagram would be wise to consider - for those concerned about deflection limits.  Close to zero deflection at the maximum load would be an optimum target to shoot for.

Be careful in using the double integral method of calculating deflection (sag) for unsupported beams - since some texts may contain errors.

Then the method of anchoring must be taken into consideration.

Since none of that information was provided in the OP, then this is an intractable problem for those who wish to pursue excellence.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-21-2014 00:28
SJ, You're preaching to the choir!:lol::yell::twisted::yell::grin::wink::cool:
Parent - - By yojimbo (***) Date 11-16-2014 03:27
I was told a 17" beam with a channel cap.  20 years ago.  Channel size eludes me.  Think I mentioned that in my post.
Parent - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 11-17-2014 01:07
My shop has a 32' span...... Engineer spec'ed a 18" I-beam ( not a wide flange - WF-) Also a 8" cap channel ....... We run a single 3 Ton hoist....... The footings (piers) are 4' square x 3' deep on 20' centers solid concrete ....... We run two cranes in a 120' run.....  Harrington Hoists out of Ohio set us up w/ end trucks for the bridges [], rails to run on and of course our 3 ton hoists w/ 16' drop.........:cool:
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-15-2014 17:35
This is a good example of Darwin at work.

It is a method of separating the participant into one of three groups: the Stupid, the Lucky, and the Smart. The Lucky will often survive their stupidity. The Smart usually survive.  The Stupid; let them rest in peace. I hope that they met their fate before bring more Stupid into this world.

There is more to the question than might first seem obvious. Is the full length of the beam supported only at the ends? Is there any lateral bracing of the top flange? Is there any chance of side loading?

I would put this fellow into the "Smart" group simply because he had enough intellect to ask the question before attempting to install the trolley beam.  If he gets professional advice from someone that knows how to size the trolley beam properly, he is Smart. There is a catch; our Smart friend has to provide all the details to the person providing the professional advice. The cost of the advice is a lot less than the cost of a hospital visit or the final ride in the big black limo.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 11-18-2014 23:35
First I agree with getting some load engineering advice....now back to FC and stupidity.   I have been in shops where 8x8x31 was in use over 20' spans more or less with 1 ton electric hoists in place, I have seen the same hoist on a 5x5x19 on a similar span.   You want two over a 30ft which I assume (AL pointed it out) is only supported on each end> no bridging on top?   Find an independent structural engineer to do a load spec for you,  you will have to let him know your choices of column size, span between and header sizes to make his work cheaper done....but probably for around $400.00 if you limit the complications you can get a recommendation of proper materials to use and how.  For that price you won't get it on prints and stamped but you could get a safe bet from someone who can calculate your loads for you.    If intermediate support was possible via means of a support column it would vastly decrease the size of iron needed, this can be done via standoffs that do not intersect the line of travel with trusses.  2 cents from a guy who would build my own for my own use but who would consult an engineer to do it for any client.

Be safe Ted
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 11-20-2014 14:18
Al,

The thing with the final ride in the black limo is that when you’re dead, you don't know you’re dead.  It’s just a pain that others have to deal with.  It’s the same thing when you’re stupid.  Believe it or not, I’ve actually been called stupid a time or two.  If I had a dollar for every time someone called me stupid, I'd have $3.27.  But for me, dealing with the stupidity of others, on a daily basis has been extremely frustrating.  As if dealing with it in the outside world isn’t enough, I have to deal with it at home as well.  My wife was complaining one evening that the hot water was cold.  “So it's cold water then?” I asked.  Then one morning she prepared a fried breakfast for me.  I could tell she'd never made cornflakes before.  She finally had enough and she even had the nerve to tell me that I’m the idiot and she said that I can't even do the simplest of things right.  At that point I’d had enough as well, so I packed her bags and I left.
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