I'm gonna put my foot in it here.
Too many people have the expectation that weld inspectors are consultants who are supposed to:
* view the weld and judge compliance
* give data related to the root cause of any defect related to current, voltage, gun angle, travel speed, fit up, root face prep, bevel angles, etc.
* provide repair instructions for said defect.
* provide coaching so that the defect does not occur again.
***** provide expanded acceptance criteria because of bad conditions.
***** provide expanded acceptance criteria because of bad equipment.
If the weld has overlap, excessive undercut, excessive reinforcement, slag inclusions, cracks, or fails UT or RT.... How does the ability of the inspector to pass an Arkansas Bell Hole have any bearing on whether or not those welds are compliant ? All this stuff is go/no-go.
I find it especially annoying when journeyman self-contractors make this complaint of inspectors who cannot weld... These guys are the golden arm top professionals in the world (and I mean that). They don't need anybody to tell them about technique or prep. Nobody is more expert than they are.
Now having said that. It really depends on the scope of the inspectors duties.
In my current role in the manufacturing world... I encourage our QC personnel to at the very least to practice and pass our minimal welding standard tests... Because we do expect them to help troubleshoot.
But if we have a 3rd party inspector on our manufacturing floor; I expect them to observe and record period. If they start telling the welders to change technique, procedures or parameters, a very major dustup will quickly follow. My QC person should be right with them and that QC person should be the one to "hear" any recommendations from 3rd partys.
Edit: I deal with an army of 3rd party inspectors. Never has it even entered my mind to ask: "Do you even weld bro?" Now I'll roll up that code book and smack em across the snout if they deserve it.
Things I've heard from inspectors who "were" welders
*I've welded for 25 years and....
***** There ain't no porosity allowed on my jobs
***** There ain't no undercut allowed on my jobs
***** That weld's too small....Followed by..."Can I borrow your fillet gage?"
***** I calibrated that at home before I left.
***** I know a good weld when I see one and this isn't it. Followed by: "Can I borrow your code book for a minute?"
***** That multi-pass fillet weld is too big
***** Forget that overlap/undercut/excessive reinforcement on that test assembly... Just grind it down and the coupon will bend just fine.
***** That structural stainless weld has a blue tint, you overheated it.
***** That GMAW/FCAW weld looks cold... Turn up the heat a bit... (volts?, WFS?, CTWD?)
AMEN, LIKE, VERY WELL PUT.
Good Lawrence.
While I agree with the position that good welders CAN make good inspectors, too often when doing the job as a TPI it is beyond their ability to just observe and report. It is one thing to offer advice to your own crew. Another thing altogether to give any kind of advice to a fabricator you are observing. That doesn't mean I have not had some good discussions with the leadman, foreman, or QC personnel when asked. But that must be done very carefully because as Al drums into us all the time, we are not there to advise, direct, consult, or represent them. We represent the owner/client. You want our advise? Hire us and pay for it. And be careful of conflict of interest taking money from both parties. Depending upon the job there can be some problems there.
BB
Well said, point taken, I agree 100%.
I probably sound a little negative because this issue has come up fairly recently in our shop. I was asked to train our QC/Dimensional Inspector in the fine art of welding inspection so he could help out as an "in-house" welding inspector if we should get in a bind.
We have qualified a few of our better shop welders to perform in-house VT inspections per the AWS B5.2 standard and have had great success. So, I put this dimensional inspector through the program even though he has never struck an arc in his life. He studied the material, participated in the classes, passed the exams, and did all he was asked to do (I must give him credit here, he really did step out of his comfort zone to do this), and yet due to his lack of welding experience he has struggled greatly in his ability to competently perform any inspections. He just does not have the knowledge to be able to look at a weld and know what position it was welded in, what process was used, where undercut is most likely to occur, etc. Anyway, I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers (at least not real bad)
No way man...... And I DO think having some welding experience helps to round out an inspector.
You make some really good points yourself.
Weld Position for one... I can walk through our manufacturing floor and see a fillet that was welded vertical from 20 feet away... An inspector with no weld experience might miss that... (we are supposed to rotate our stuff to flat and horizontal)
Good post Weldin :)
Many of the short comings mentioned are deficiencies in experience. Training does not replace the relevant work experience component of the qualification process.
A 20, 30, or 40 hour course on the subject of welding inspection, machining, design, or truck driving is no substitute for experience. That is precisely why all of the qualification/certification documents require a relevant work experience component to the certification process.
You might want to review your Written Practice to see what the relevant work experience requirement is. What, you don't have a Written Practice? If that is the case, you have no certified inspection personnel if you are working to SNT-TC-1A, CP-189, or AWS B5.2.
Best regards - AL
Years ago a new employer needed a CWI to inspect a building being erected, they assumed because I was a CWI that I knew what was required to be inspected. I had always been a shop QC person inspecting in service parts and new fabrications in the shop but never a building being erected. I told them that just because I am a CWI doesn't mean I know every aspect of every line of work. They said "you have the code book, look it up in there" and I had to explain to them it doesn't work that way. We got through it but it was uncomfortable for a couple days.
I dabble in inspection a bit, mostly as the Verification Inspector for D1.1 or the Owners Inspector for ASME B31.3. I cant tell you how many time I have heard:
"That won't matter, look how much "good" weld there is"
"That's not in the code (the requirement was in the contract documents)"
"How am i gonna fix that?"
"If I fix all that stuff, I won't make any money on this job"
I write up the inspection report, and for every deficiency, I quote the code or the contract specifications. Lots of pictures included so everybody knows exactly what was wrong. I never ever suggest fixes or offer opinions on anything, I just show em in the code or contract what it says and move on.
Always and forever it goes like this
Vendor: "How much undercut, porosity, etc am I allowed"
Me (standard response): "I don't know, lets look it up"
Gotten myself disliked a good bit by requiring paint to be removed so I could look at the weld, and not the paint.
Gotten myself disliked more by asking a guy on the floor to explain how he was supposed to weld a part, and where is the procedure for that weld, and how does he know that the right metal was delivered to his station for the part.
Made some folks way upset when I asked how the preheat for a thick to thin (~2.5" baseplate) connection was done, and when the welder said they didn't preheat, made them preheat (and use a tempstick 3" away) to arc gouge, grind everything clean, preheat to weld (and use a tempstick again) and reinspect the fillet weld on the baseplate.
Had to fuss at a guy for the fillet welds on opposite sides of a common plane thing, some of our stuff had a fancy little detail where the strength weld was held back per code, but then we added a tiny little TIG weld to tie those welds in for corrosion purposes. They burned them in with big hot GMAW, and they had to redo all of that.
Countless instances of the root pass on smaller SS pipe protruding way too far on the root side. (We do a lot of thinnish wall stuff, and you are only allowed .0625" protrusion)
Good times!
"The less they know, the more we make."
Best regards - Al
They have a corollary
"The more we know, the less they make"
Yes, but not too many of them really try to learn and thus KNOW more.
He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent
Wait, what? We need to have a Written Practice to qualify our in-house welding inspectors to the AWS B5.2 standard? Just kidding, we actually do have all of the documentation requirements. For relevant experience it states "Five years of relevant work experience or a combination of relevant work experience and welding related, post-high school education". The guy I mentioned in my previous post was able to provide this (believe me, I was hoping for a reason to politely decline his participation), which is a good topic for another discussion, I think...
In my opinion there is no more correlation between welding ability and inspection than there being an air traffic controller and pilot, police officer and judge, president and member of the armed forces, and so many others. Sure, sometimes it helps with perspective and understanding, but is by no means needed. I also feel there is some overlapping knowledge that is needed.
I have come across so many golden arm welders put in positions as QC inspectors that have taken it upon them selves to assure quality by creating there own acceptance criteria with no regard for that referenced in the project specifications . I am not saying that being a welder is a hindrance, but I have seen and heard some things that make me roll my eyes. Things that far exceed those heard from CWI's who just got out of 2 week CWI course.
On the other end, how can a guy make a weld that has never opened up a code book, reviewed a WPS, or even knows what range of qualification he possesses? He can because there are people that are trained to help assure those things happen.
A combination of experience is great, but the skills required are different. They can be developed together. And there are plenty of welders who are great inspectors, but I strongly suggest judging the quality of an inspector based upon his or her ability to weld is no different than judging the ability of a welder based upon his/her ability to read a project specification, apply it as directed, and accurately report his/her findings.
As with many things there are exceptions. I have made some bad welds, I have done some things incorrectly as an inspector. Both jobs are ones I love. I try to even separate the two. When I am hired as a welder, I try not to get into to deciding if my weld is acceptable or not or if someone else s is. I just weld it up, and head on to the next one.
I could tell a story about a 4" crossover line in t he bottom of a recovery boiler that I welded that I am sure the welders that knew I was both a CWI, QC Inspector for the Company, AND part time welding instructor really got a kick out of. I made a terrible mess of it!
Point is, that weld I messed up, had nothing to do with my ability to inspect.
Nor was my ability to weld reflected by the times I visually rejected welds in tube coupons with more than 1/16" reinforcement because I believed it was the right thing to do even though the code allowed up to 5/32" and was my only acceptance criteria.
The jobs are different, the skills are different, we all do good, we all do bad, we all grow.
All of the above is based solely upon my opinion and very limited observation of the welding world. Experiences and thoughts may differ :).
Have a good one.
Gerald Austin
Welder-Depending Who you ask
Inspector-Depending who you ask
Teacher-Depending who you ask
And many other things-Depending who you ask.
