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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / New to welding: which program to choose?
- - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-26-2015 21:39
Hello all,
I am a U.S. Marine and will be transitioning from active duty in the next two years. I'm planning on attending Diesel mechanic school, but I have an opportunity to complete a 1 year welding program before starting the diesel program. Do you think it would be worth the time and money to complete the welding program? If so, which one...SMAW & GTAW or FCAW & GMAW? I have no welding experience so any suggestions would be very helpful. Thanks
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 04-26-2015 22:17
Hello WorkInTrades, if your passion is to definitely work in the diesel/heavy equipment trades, welding will be of great benefit to you, particularly if you end up as a field mechanic. That being said, concentrate on SMAW, FCAW self-shielded and gas-shielded, and also learn to operate a cutting torch really well and also a Carbon Arc Torch. Those items will be invaluable to your mechanical skills if you do end up on a field truck and they can also be readily used in a regular shop environment. That's the short answer. Thank you for your service, good luck, and best regards, Allan
Parent - - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-26-2015 23:40
Allen,
Thank you for answering my questions and acknowledging my service...I really appreciate it! My local community college offers a two semester SMAW program that leads to NCCER Level 1 certification. It sounds like I should start with that. I'm really looking forward to getting started. I enjoy working with my hands and I'm really interested to see if I enjoy welding. After I complete the SMAW program, depending on time and money, I could take two semesters of FCAW & GMAW or two semesters of GTAW. From your reply, It sounds like the FCAW & GMAW would be the way to go for the second year. Also, is there a difference between NCCER and AWS certfications? As a sanity check, am I going overboard with my welding training plan if I'm looking to enter the diesel field? As a side note, field service sounds very attractive to me. Thanks again

Dave
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 04-27-2015 00:22 Edited 04-27-2015 00:26
Hello again Dave, you have to take this from the perspective that I "AM" a welding instructor so consider the source: the welding trades are way more tolerant of aging individuals than just about any other technical trade. This doesn't matter to you now since you are likely fairly young in your position in life. Yet, as we get older if we are in a mechanical trade or one that is constantly evolving and requiring technical upgrading(think service school, training etc. to keep up with current trends in mechanics) it is more difficult to stay employed in an advanced position since employers are less likely to invest the time and money into an older mechanic as they near retirement. I know this since my dad experienced this sort of phasing out when he got towards the end of his career as a line mechanic on GM, Ford, and Jeep vehicles(he worked as a master mechanic for 40+ years). I was planning on following his example and becoming a mechanic, however, I got involved in welding and the rest is history.

With welding this tends to be less prevalent and in "most" instances an older welder is often sought after if for no other reason than the fact that they have years of experience that they can share. They are also possibly more likely to be able to show up to work on time, work all day for a day's pay, and provide the soft skills that are so important to most employers today.

As to your interest in mechanics: mechanical skills, machine shop skills, welding, hydraulics, low and high voltage electrical skills are all just additional tools in your tool box that can assist you in finding a job that is rewarding and financially lucrative. Just about any employer will consider the worth of a multi-talented candidate with more weight than one who is narrowly skilled.

I always tell students that having technical skills will almost always earn you a family wage job. Additionally, I tell them that if I spin a globe and set my finger on it anywhere, I will be able to go to work there, that can't be said for too many other skills. I used to limit this by saying if I land on anything other than water, then I was reminded that underwater welding might be an option so my first statement wasn't completely accurate.

I just realized that I hadn't addressed your question in regard to NCCER and AWS. Either one of these two items can be beneficial, mainly they are likely geographically recognized and common to various areas dependent upon what is typical in those areas. Sorry, I am unable to be more definitive. Once again, good luck and regards, Allan
Parent - - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-27-2015 01:49
Allan,
Your advice has me really intrigued. I am actually in my mid-forties and will be retiring from the Marines. I have really been wrestling with what my second career choice is going to be. I have a mechanical engineering degree, grew up working construction and I prefer physical work. I have no interest in pursuing corporate management positions. I also want to enter a field that will give me some longevity since I'll be in it at least 15 years. I never really considered welding as a career, but your reply has me rethinking my choice. To be honest, I'm concerned about entering the diesel mechanic field at my age so your comments about older mechanics hits home. Additionally, there seems to be such a large investment in tools that I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze at my age. Maybe welding would be a better fit for me? I have really been struggling to find a good "fit" as my retirement approaches, so any additional career guidance regarding welding career options would be much appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Dave
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 04-27-2015 02:17 Edited 04-27-2015 02:20
Hello again Dave, I certainly hope that some others jump in here on your questions as you should consider all angles and many heads are generally better than one. That being said, you already have a great background to fit into a section of the welding trades, particularly since you have your mechanical engineering degree, a construction background, and you apparently aren't afraid of physical work.

Right off the bat, I could see that you might consider structural construction in the field. However, depending on the geographical location, the weather can certainly prove to be a challenge and something to consider if you have tired joints or other such physical challenges. You mentioned that you aren't necessarily looking for a corporate management position, however there are a lot of onsite type positions where your mechanical engineering experience could certainly be sought after and be a benefit to many companies.

If you are considering a more "protected" environment to work in, fabrication shops generally offer a lot of possibilities for a variety of different types of fabrication/welding experiences. Do you have a particular area of the country in mind for landing on and going to work? Knowing this might reveal opportunities to consider and research the types of industry that are in that area and might also direct your interests to a particular area.

Another area of work that is tied to the welding trades is QA/QC and associated inspectional services. There is a great need for folks to provide services in these areas. Depending on who you consider to be in the know, it is often good to have at least a minimal background in welding before pursuing this area, however it is not a requirement. Here again, your past experiences could have a direct correlation to pursing this area of work and if you opted to pursue some welding it would definitely set you up for going in a direction such as this.

Well I've rambled along enough for now. Hope others provide their takes, as I mentioned. Best regards, Allan

EDIT: by the way have you looked into the "helmets to hardhats" program? I believe this program is still available to veterans
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 04-27-2015 09:06
NCCER vs AWS.
Two completely different entities.
Some construction sites/companies require NCCER certifications for employment. I have no experience with it, but any cert and training is good thing. Just like anything, you will get out of it what you put in.
As Richard Marcinco said... " The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle."
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 04-27-2015 12:52
WorkInTrades,

I can’t be of any assistance regarding your post.  I just wanted to thank you for your service.  Heroes don’t wear capes, they wear dog tags.  Never in the history of the world has any soldier sacrificed more for the freedom and the liberty of total strangers than the American soldier.  I hope that every path you take is free of obstacles and every step you take becomes elevated towards success.  God bless you and all your future plans.
Parent - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-27-2015 21:26
SCOTTN,
Thank you very much for acknowledging my service and that of all service members!

Dave
Parent - - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-27-2015 20:57
SuperFlux,
Thanks for the clarification. I like the quote you chose...words to live by!

Dave
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 04-28-2015 08:13 Edited 04-28-2015 08:16
Gotta love the "Rogue Warrior" quotes.
As I said about any training is a good thing, I do have a Personal issue/problem with NCCER as being a "For Profit" money grubbing entity. I say that because some companies/jobsites mandate you be NCCER certified and I know of CWIs that have had to take their test for employment. Just seems to be another way to get money out of us poor working stiffs. I've taken many a welding and pipefitting Pre-employment test and never had to pay for one, yet very few employers subsidize the NCCER fee.
A few years ago, I did consider becoming a trainer for them though because it pays quite well. Hypocrytical as that may be or sound... I once knew a very liberal free thinking Catholic priest (danged near agnostic he was!) who told me "What better way to fight the system than from within!".
Parent - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-27-2015 20:54
Allan,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate your advice....I have some thinking to do.

Dave
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 04-27-2015 15:55
Good Advice from Allen! Thank you for your service!
Parent - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-27-2015 20:58
THANK YOU!
Parent - - By Jarhead1 (**) Date 04-27-2015 12:52
I was also in the Marines 6yrs 1811 tank crewman 2+ yrs. Had enough being stuck in a M60-a2 Steel coffin.
Ask for a transfer and after many months changed my MOS to 1316 welder. After school worked on aircraft overseas and
got stationed in Cali. received some great training and completed several weld certifications tests for the government. Had security clearance to work on some special projects.
What I'm getting at and if your serious ask to change you MOS. Very tough to do, be persistent.  The school was great and covered most welding processes.
In Cali I was in a weld shop with 60+ welders although all civilians learned a lot and became a Pipefitter right out of the corps
for a while. Still involved in the field.
We need more young kids interested in this field. When you get out there are bennies for former Military check you locals, recruiters,
etc.

Good Luck
Parent - - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-27-2015 21:07
Jarhead1,
Thank you for your service! I'll be retiring soon so I'm out of the MOS changing window:grin: However, I'm really considering enrolling in a one year welding cert at a local community college in order to give the trade a try. 

Dave
Parent - By Jarhead1 (**) Date 04-28-2015 21:08
Dave -
Make Yourself a Valuable Commodity. Learn all you can get those paws dirty, get behind a grinder for 8-10 hrs. Learn to run a mill, lathe, etc. Small to Big corporations are looking for "Hands On" hard to find these days.
Consider college - Manufacturing Engineer. Finished in my 30's worked well for me and I'm still in the shop as much as I want., burning wire, cutting steel, training the new generation who want to learn.

Keep those ears open - These guys on this forum are a wealth of knowledge ask all the questions you want.

Semper Fi.....
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-27-2015 18:43
Dave,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

And I also say, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE. 

Now, Shawn, known on here as 'Cumminsguy' was a mechanic and went finally to the welding route (besides also being a military man if I remember correctly). 

You can't go wrong taking the welding first and then specializing in the mechanics.  But, you may find you enjoy the welding so much you change your career path before you finish your first year.  It is a great profession with many opportunities. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-27-2015 21:22
welderbrent,
Thank you! I'm really leaning towards enrolling in the year course. It seems like it would be good training even if I go the diesel mechanic route. Also, as you said, who knows were it might lead!
Parent - - By Josephp (**) Date 04-28-2015 21:24
Dave, look at Helmets to Hardhats, see URL:

https://www.helmetstohardhats.org

Get into a Labor Union, You will be paid as you learn{not pay to learn and no work] and make a good living with medical and retirement packages.

Look into the International Union of Operating Engineers, see URL: http://www.iuoe.org

Regards

Joseph
Parent - - By WorkInTrades (*) Date 04-29-2015 01:15
Joseph,
Thank you for the information and links.

Dave
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 05-01-2015 01:20
Semper Fi brother!

Welding and diesel mechanic, do I know about those. Spent 18 years cranking wrenches. Rebuilt anything that could be rebuilt on a Cat. Engines, transmissions, rear differentials, front differentials, hydrostats, hydraulic pumps, motors, cylinders and even rebuilt a Detroit Series 60 at the Cat dealer. They asked if I could do it and I said, yep. Rigged up a wiring harness, controls to run on the dyno. Worked at Western Star dealer, Case heavy equipment, Dodge dealer, nationwide equipment rental place doing field service and finished off at a Cadillac dealer before waking up and realizing I was tired of being a mechanic/technician.

Welding as a mechanic. In my experience in the dealerships(cars/light trucks) everybody was a welder, using that term loosely. We welded on some exhaust pipe when a catalytic converter needed to be replaced and that was about it. The body shop on the other hand welded more.

Welding as a heavy equipment mechanic. At the Cat dealer they had their own welding/machine shop so unless you work in there you wouldn't be welding. Welders there were welders with some mechanical but usually broke stuff was removed and taken to them. They did have a field service set up for a welder to go out and the machinists could weld and would get sent out at times to repair pivot points on machines.

In the back of the shop were the grunts. They disassembled components, repaired tracks, did heavy duty work. Did some minor stuff on engines, checking pressures, diagnostics and such. In the front shop we called it the "Spec Shop" we rebuilt components. Had a hydraulic test bench for testing hydrostatic transmissions, pumps and motors after being rebuilt or for diagnostics. We also had an engine dyno for testing rebuilt diesel engines. The only reason we welded was to fabricate something for home after work in the welding shop. We made some crazy special tools for picking up valve bodies from transmissions or other things.

The Case dealer had their own welding shop, again, term used loosely. It was one bay with a grump old welder who stood around talking more than working. After he quit they moved an in house guy into that position, me, then sent me to school. I was the young grumpy welder who later told them to stick their job up their backside...thanks for the education though. 

Welding in Truck shops dealers, similar to car dealers, everybody was a welder unless it was something serious like fixing an axle, frame repair where us unqualified wannabe's were not allowed. Nothing real serious got done in my experience and if it did they hired out for it.

Mechanic in general. I did if for quite awhile but think I got burned out. Worked flat rate for nearly 5 years and got tired of Union wankers designing, making steaming piles of crap then bending me over on warranty times that some other union wanker thought up by picking a number out of a hat. Worked my tail off, was a GM Master Technician, electrical, engines and more, ASE Certified Master Tech and ASE Diesel Tech. I took my automatic transmission test. Knew I should study but didn't. Sat in the car the night of the test looking over the book for 15 minutes. Went in and took the test. A few weeks later found out I passed. I hadn't touched an automatic transmission in over 10 years. LOL!! 

The rental equipment place, all I can say is if you become a mechanic, run like hel from those places. If you think, "maybe I'll check on a job there", my advise, keep driving.

Overall I did enjoy it, after that much time there is nothing I'm worried about taking apart because I've likely had more complicated apart. I bring these things up to show that I left on my own, not because I couldn't "hack" it. It's fun to work on things now and again, rebuilding old tractor engines, continental engines, play around with some cars.

Tools- Oh lord, you become a mechanic, you'll easily tie up $50k in tools. When I left I had around $60-70 in tools and tool box. Drove a 90's model Saturn....used.

So, welding in the mechanic field, not a real necessity in my experience and if you put it on a resume when you apply at the Kenworth dealer they really won't care. Oh, truck dealers are usually flat rate. If you are not familiar with flat rate that means if there is nothing to do in the shop, you are NOT getting paid. I repeat, not getting paid. I remember clearing off the top of my tool box, taking my coat and folding it into a pillow and literally going to sleep. Some days I would just leave. They would ask me the next day, "where did you go??". Home I would say. "Why, you were supposed to be at work". To which I would say, "why, so I could sleep on my toolbox doing nothing".

The only aspect of welding/mechanic would be a field mechanic. Used to make things, do minor repairs and such but I don't think they are responsible for any serious weld repairs. They are mechanics that can lay down a pretty good bead usually. Lots of dirt, lots of grease and lovely places like landfills to repair tracks on a D8, watch out for needles and hep 3.

I checked on that Helmets to Hardhats and pretty good deal. I went thru them to apply for the boilermakers union, got put on the list for an apprenticeship at #2. They called about 8-9 months later and asked if I was ready to go to work. My business was booming and turned them down.

Out of all of the Unions, if you want to go that route, go Boilermakers. Best pay starting out. I would have started around $18/hour and full education. Everybody else, Pipefitters, Ironworkers, starting pay sucked. Top pay for a Journeymen Boilermaker also blew away the others.

Good luck to you, any questions, shoot me a message here.

Shawn
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / New to welding: which program to choose?

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