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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / purpose of preheating before welding
- - By xie chengyang Date 09-10-2016 13:21
Dear all
I am Chinese,I have a question to need your help
Q345R that is  similar to S355J2 do not need preheat before welding when the base metal thickness less than 30mm according to PQR and our experience,recently my colleagues,a Frenchman,from Germany headquarters ,tell me that we should preheat befor welding,he said preheating is better,he also tell tack welding is no problem without preheat,it confuse me. In my opinion,preheat can prevent weld from
delayed crack due to quick cooling,so we preheat when we weld more thick plate,I think that tack welding have a much quickly cooling,however he told me you can no preheat before tack welding.
Can you help to explain why he so say?
Thanks in advance!
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-10-2016 14:17
He is WRONG.  Preheat is even more critical prior to tack welding due to the even quicker heat up of a cool part and much quicker cool down of that cool part.  The micro structure effects will be more extreme than when actually running a weld pass that has an opportunity to heat up the area itself even though the first part has not had that advantage. 

Pre-heat does so much to assist in sound weld deposits.  It is easy to find this in any book on basic welding.  The AWS Handbooks on Welding series, I think the 1st on is the Science and Technology one with much good info.  Then, in Linnert's 'Welding Metallurgy' you can find a lot of information. 

Yes, the thicker the material the more important pre-heat is and the higher it needs to be, both for tacking and for welding.  One of the main purposes is to assist with how that material cools coming down and going back up through the phase temperature area.  All of it has to do with how the HAZ will be effected as well as hydrogen being drawn into the weld pool causing Hydrogen, underbead, cracking during cooling. 

When and if pre-heat is needed will depend upon ambient air temperature (humidity can also come into play but isn't included in the codes for the most part) as that will determine if your parts are already at the required heat for the thickness encountered.  But, there are times it is advantageous to add preheat even when the parts are at the code required heat.  You can't go wrong adding a little heat but you can really go wrong by not using it when needed. 

Hope this helps.  In a bit of a hurry so may not have really explained it well.  Mainly trying to clear up any confusion.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Eutectic (**) Date 09-23-2016 11:16
:lol::lol::lol: Frenchman from Germany...
Lets leave that there,
for CS preheat is ussually recommended to limit the risk of hydrogen or cold cracking and is based on:
Heat input
Carbon Equivalent
Hydrogen content of consumable
Thickness/Restraint.

For higher alloy martensitic steels it is in general mandatory.

SO in short, if you have qualified your procedure and proven that you can weld without preheat then it should be fine, just keep in mind though it is better to stipulate a minimum temperature as opposed to no preheat or RT as this will vary between teh seasons.

Then as stated by the Gentlemen above, for ferritic material you could rarely go wrong with applying preheat for a varietey of reasons.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-11-2016 13:08
One of the few instances where preheating prior to tack welding is not a requirement is if the tack weld is going to be incorporated into the final weld using SAW. Other than that exception permitted by the structural welding code, I concur with Brent's comments.

The preheat required by the AWS structural welding code is the minimum preheat required prior to welding. The base metals are grouped by their carbon equivalency, thus thicker or more highly alloyed carbon and high strength low alloys require higher preheat temperature. The preheat temperatures listed in clause 3 do not consider the degree of restraint. However, the annex does include an alternative to the table in clause 3 that is based on the chemistry of the base metal, thickness, level of hydrogen control, and degree of restraint. I often use it (the annex) rather than the table in clause 3 when repairing welds or structures where the pedigree of the base metal is unknown (think of existing structures built prior to the 1960s).

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-23-2016 17:41
The amount of preheat required is a function of the moisture contained in the pores of the steel. We have to preheat submarines to a higher temperature and for a longer period of time when performing repairs because the steel hull absorbs more moisture while submerged at great depth.

And I have some dry land in the Everglades that I would like to sell, cheap.

Al :eek::eek::eek:
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-24-2016 02:23
:eek:  :lol:  :lol:  :wink:
Parent - - By Eutectic (**) Date 09-26-2016 14:13
especially for oxyfuel preheat, you can literally see the water evaporating out of the steel.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-26-2016 14:16
LMAO :lol:
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 09-26-2016 18:24
Water evaporating from the steel? Somebody really famous once said that "the moisture observed when preheating a cold piece of metal with a torch is the by-product of combustion, i.e., H2O, condensing on the cold surface." Hey Al, how much do you want for that moistureless land in the Everglades?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-26-2016 19:11
Somebody is going to believe you guys !
Parent - - By 52757 (**) Date 09-26-2016 20:22
I sure wish Henry was still around, see to see his response to Al's submarine joke!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-27-2016 01:33
You and I both.

Al
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-27-2016 15:04
Yes, and we are so radically unbelievable most of the time.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 09-27-2016 17:23
"the steel hull absorbs more moisture while submerged at great depth."
You forgot to add that because of this, it also swells up in the grain structure and causes dimensional variances.

Yawls minds aint right....
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-27-2016 17:45
That just proves no amount of book reading can completely replace first hand experience. Thanks for bring that to our attention.

:lol:Al:grin:
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 09-27-2016 21:32
Got-cher back Bro.
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 10-04-2016 03:41
"Got-cher back Bro."
the motto of this forum:grin::cool:
sincerely,
Kent
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / purpose of preheating before welding

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