Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Can we discuss Arc blow further?
- - By batanony (*) Date 09-03-2007 08:04
Hello all of you :)

I hope u r all doing fine.

Well, as u know, I am doing experiments on wet welding in both ;shallow and deep depths. The problem we encounter most frequently is the arc blow. We r trying to alleviate it. However, some points should be clear...
You will find written in the AWS Welding Handbook, Vol. (2), specifically on page (85) that
"Forward blow exists for a short time at the start of a weld, and then it diminishes. This is because the flux soon finds an easy path through the weld metal.. Once the magnetic flux behind the arc is concentrated in concentrated on the plate and the weld, the arc is influenced mainly by the flux in front of it as this flux crosses the root opening. "

Easy path? crossing the root opening? I am sorry...I thought that when reaching Curie Point, there will be no magnetic field ...How come they will be concentrated in behind? and could you please explain to me how the last phrase concerning the root opening?
Thank you so much
Mona
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-03-2007 15:23 Edited 09-03-2007 16:02
The metal loses the ability to be magnetized above the Curie temperature, but the welding arc, the ionized column of "hot gases" which is electrically conductive and allows for the "free" flow of electrons is influenced by the external magnetic field.

The electrons are influenced by the magnetic field, thus the path of the electrons is deflected either toward the magnetic field or away from the magnetic field depending on the polarity of the field. 

An easy demonstration of the influence of the external magnetic field is to place  "strong" magnet on top of a television set. The image on the cathode ray tube is distorted by the magnetic field of the magnet. After all, the image on the picture tube is formed by deflecting the electrons from the "electron gun" at the back of the tube by four electromagnets toward the front of the television screen, two magnets to either side, and one top and the other at the bottom of the screen. The intensity of the magnetic field, left, right, up or down determines where the electrons strike the phosphorus screen, and because of persistence it creates the image we see.

Back to welding, the electron flow i.e., the arc, is easily deflected by the external magnetic field, thus we have arc blow.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 09-06-2007 07:01
Yep thats a great demo with the TV of magnetic influence on electrons path......but don't leave that magnet there for long.   The phospher coatings on CRT's are magnetically permeable.  Showed same thing to my young sons and walked away  .....well I was faced with replacing two tvs the next day after they were done with thier "experiments".  LOL
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-05-2007 21:54
Mona,

first of all and once again I'm impressed by Al's post. It surely can not be better described.

Thus the following notes should be seen only as some addenda to Al's explanations.

In my opinion you are "right" when you think that when reaching the Curie Temperature of the base material there should no more exist any kind of (measurable) magnetism, but "wrong" on the other hand, when thinking there won't exist any kind of magnetism at all in DC arc-welding.

First of all one must know that the physical coherences of magnetic arc-blow are too intricate to be treated herein - at least from my personal point of view. To describe the exact sequences of the interaction between the electric current and the magnetic field being induced by it, it would be necessary to have as a minimum a diploma in electrical engineering since then it would be necessary to resolve the MAXWELL-Equations for stationary fields, which is far above my head. As you know I am even nobody who has ever pursued welding as a kind of career but rather as a kind of profession. Thus please understand that I am trying to describe the coherences only with the fundamentals of what a welder needs to know for "understanding" magnetic arc-blow and would like to avoid any mathematical formulae. Perhaps some others could explain it better...

Please allow, Mona, to recommend you as far as it hasn't happened yet to try to intensively find out the physical basics of a welding-arc and its behaviour in relation to different conditions. I guess, then you might have the chance for a better understanding when one says "...easy path..." or "...crossing the root opening...".

Very first of all I guess it would be reasonable to start with the magnetic field itself which is generated circumferentially around and acting perpendicular to the axis of current flow direction. As it is well-known, each electrical conductor is surrounded by a magnetic field. But most important is the fact, that the forces cohering to these fields try to displace the conductor's relative spatial position.

When we now imagine such a conductor - e.g. a welding lead - having a rotation-symmetric shape, the field lines around this conductor are shaped rotation-symmetric as well, please see also the Arc_Blow_1.jpeg.

Equivalent to this sketch or to the imagination of this rotation-symmetric conductor, can be seen our "tool" which consists of the stick-electrode and - yes - the arc itself, which is of course even nothing less than an electrical conductor, as well. And when everything works fine and symmetrically, the field lines, surrounding both the electrode as well as the arc-gap, are shaped symmetrical, too. This means again that all the differential values of the existing magnetic field line forces are symmetric in relation to their spatial direction. I personally interpret thus the statement: "...This is because the flux soon finds an easy path through the weld metal..." as an example for the symmetrical formation of magnetic field lines around both electrode and arc. The arc burns stable and no arc blow is to be observed...

Now let's try to imagine the opposite - i.e. arc-blow - and thus what happens when the symmetry of what we have spoken of is being disturbed by any peripheral means. Therefore let us basically suppose to use ferromagnetic material as steel - just as you are using it. What we assume is, that the "symmetry" is becoming an "asymmetry" in a special way, or in other words, the previously equalized values of field forces in space, must become different in relation to their spatial orientation. Allow me to let me use again our "picture" of the rotation-symmetric conductor but now "bending" it for resulting in such an "asymmetry" in the field force orientation, see also the Arc_Blow_2.jpeg. What we can see there, is that this bending leads to a kind of "compression" of the inner radius area field lines and a kind of "relaxation" of them at the outer radius area. The field lines having a higher concentration at the inner radius area, induce again an increased outward directed force. In case of real (Shielded Metal Arc-) welding we have now a quite comparable behaviour. Minimal discontinuities with respect to the symmetrical orientation of the field lines - how ever they should look like - lead to a deflection of the arc.

Let's resume...

We have now heard, that specific - even minimal - perturbations in the symmetry of the generated (invisible) field lines can lead to an observable asymmetry in the stability of the welding-arc. So far so good. This is what you could already more than once observe and this is the reason for that you have posted your question. And by the way, welding a butt-joint as you do, makes the issue more complicated compared with welding a fillet-joint, but more later.

What are now these mentioned different perturbations with respect to practical welding?

Let us begin with the most simple example:

·  The Ground Clamp:

In DC welding you have - of course - two different polarities. Under "ordinary" circumstances you are using electrode negative and work-piece positive polarity. But it doesn't either matter if the polarity is changed, since the physical principle remains the same. Now let's imagine two electrical conductors, conducting the current in the same direction, as shown in Arc_Blow_3a_.jpeg. The magnetic field forces between  both conductors "add" themselves and thus a reduction of their intensity in between the conductors can be observed (please remember the above mentioned "compression" and "relaxation"). For a better understanding see also the bottom section of Arc_Blow_3a.jpeg. Both conductors are attracted to each other since the field force density I between them is reduced compared to the outer areas. 

Let's now come to the case where opposite Current Flow Directions are used, as to be seen in different welding polarities, and what is in general the case in arc-welding. The attached Arc_Blow_3b.jpeg shows both the schematic current flow and the adhering magnetic field lines. As closer both conductors and thus the field lines are approached to each other, the larger is the "compression" of those in between the conductors and the larger is the force trying to displace the conductors spatial position. What this means in practical application can be seen schematically in Arc-Blow_4.jpeg. When the negative polarized conductor (electrode + arc) are approached toward the positive polarized conductor (Ground Clamp) the magnetic field lines are compressed in between both conductors (compare Arc_Blow_2.jpeg) and outward directed (away from the Ground Clamp).  As a result Arc Blow can be observed. See also the attached Arc_Blow_5.jpeg, which shows an arc burning between a carbon electrode and a steel sheet metal. This by the way, can be avoided by using two Ground Clamps and positioning them on both ends of the work-piece to be welded, as to be seen schematically in Arc_Blow_6_a.jpeg, and in practical behaviour in Arc_Blow_6_b.jpeg.

Time for a brief conclusion.

Up to now we have spoken about the main reason for Arc Blowing, i.e. asymmetric formed magnetic fields or -forces respectively, trying to displace the electrical conductor off its spatial position. Due to the arc is actually - as Al has described in a perfect manner - "nothing more" than an ionised column of gases this electrical conductor "arc" is appropriately sensitive against the magnetic field forces. Just as Al has also explained already.

But now let's have a look upon your specific problem. SMA-(Wet)-Welding of a butt-joint geometry and having excessive arc-blow phenomena, in particular within the groove.

Well, from my point of view, the most difficult in arc-blowing phenomena is that it is incalculable(!). Only by having gathered large practical experience - as we could impressively read in all the replies which were posted by Al, Gerald, Henry, Giovanni S. Crisi, bkoz, Bill, Martin,..., on your "Magnetic Permeability vs. Temperature" topic, one is able to "anticipate" what may happen when a DC-arc is burning in the adjacent area of large material accumulations etc.

This mentioned case is quite comparable with when you are talking about:

"...Easy path? crossing the root opening? I am sorry...I thought that when reaching Curie Point, there will be no magnetic field ...How come they will be concentrated in behind?"

To find a way off confusion let's start again with what we have already spoken about. We have heard that the stick-electrode + the arc are electrical conductors and thus being surrounded by circular magnetic fields or the adhering forces of these fields, respectively. What we also know is, that the - in particular Shielded Metal- - arc is sure an electrical conductor but due to it consists of a plasma, it is a weak one, sensitive against every little asymmetry in the formation of the field forces. Now you are right when you say, that the molten steel (which is the liquid weld-metal deposit) and all the work-piece areas elevated to temperatures above the CURIE-point are nonmagnetic. Thus - on the first view - the arc should not be deflected by being attracted of the nonmagnetic, since liquid, metal.

So what is the secret behind the butt-joint groove arc-blow..?

As far as I understand the subject (but you know I am always humble willing to learn), it is both a combination of magnetic field forces and the perturbations (asymmetries) being induced by the molten metal (where no magnetic field can be built up on), but where the anode spot is generated on since the electrical conductivity is higher compared with the surrounding air in front of the arc.

But let us firstly start with having a closer look upon what happens in regard of the generation of magnetic fields within the welding groove. We have heard that when having "only two" different polarities we have to expect "only two" different magnetic fields. These fields are with respect to their spatial orientation quite opposite to each other and thus by approaching anode (Ground Clamp) and cathode (Welding-Arc) - and thus compressing both fields - we can suppose to observe that the (weak conductor) arc is being deflected. What we also know is, that the arc is being deflected with respect to both directions - away from the Ground-Clamp and away from the work-piece's edge. The latter (in Germany we call it "Kantenwirkung") is explainable by the imagination of that due to the missing continuation of one work piece dimension (length) the field lines are compressed. By this we have an inwardly orientated increased magnetic force. Schematically this can be expressed by the Arc_Blow_7.jpeg.

Therefore let us name up to now two different increased fields of magnetic activity - or DC-arc-blow-phenomena - under presuming to prepare a bead on plate weld on a strip of steel sheet metal. The first one, as described under Arc_Blow_2.jpeg, is the conductor's "bending". And the second one is formed in the areas directly adjacent to the Ground Clamp and the "Edge"-area (in x-axis direction) of the sheet metal. Both phenomena take care for a compression, and thus a stringent asymmetry of the field lines.

And now it comes...

When you are now going to prepare a butt-joint-groove weld, a third magnetic field phenomenon must be added to the both already mentioned above. This is the field which is generated between the both sheets or plates respectively and which is a quite stringent one. Due to the gap (air) in between the both plates this field is additionally quite asymmetric formed and thus quite instable. So we can count the subsequent three different magnetic field phenomena acting on our weak electrical conductor (DC-arc):

Field "No. 1" - Start of the welding process on the edge:
Here the field lines are compressed by bending the "conductor"  by ~ 90° (vertical stick-electrode - arc - horizontal plate). The "inner" or "concave" radius area having an outwards orientated field force.

Field "No. 2" - Magnetic influence of the work-piece' edge:
Compression of the field lines behind the arc. The base-material is - in contrast to the surrounding air - magnetized and the field lines are "absorbed" by the base-material.

Field "No. 3" - Magnetic influence of the groove bevels:
Compression of the field lines on both sides of the welding-gap. The magnetic forces are outwards orientated.

For a better understanding of the mentioned three fields please see also the Arc_Blow_8_a.jpeg. Here one can see, that the different fields interact while the seam is welded and strong field-asymmetries are taking place by that. The strongest force - when starting to weld on the work-piece' edge - is caused by "Field No. 2". Hereby the arc is quasi being pushed into the open groove. When continuing in welding and approaching the centre of the seam, Field No. 1 and 3 are getting more important and Field No. 2 disappears. From crossing the centre of the seam (Field No. 2 ~ 0) and advancing towards the Ground Clamp Field, No. 2 does increase again whereas Field No. 3 disappears. Now, the closer the electrode is approached to the Ground Clamp, Field No. 1 and 2 add themselves and by compressing the field lines in its front, the arc is deflected onto the already welded seam. For a better understanding of these descriptions please see also the attached sketch Arc_Blow_8_b.jpeg.

So far so good...

But what to do now to reduce arc-blow in groove butt-joint SMAW?

Well, I guess this is the reason for you to prepare the investigations and to write your PhD, isn't it? But as one humble hint from my side and only as an addendum to what the others have already recommended, I would try to intermittent tack weld the plate, just as to see in Arc_Blow_9.jpeg. This measure can reduce a stronger compression of field lines and thus reduce the asymmetry of the magnetic forces.

Might help as one item of several to solve your problems.

So far my humble contribution to your topic and as I already stated above, it might be of course that I am wrong by seeing the things as I have described them previously and I am always willing to be corrected.

I could imagine for instance, that our NDT colleagues who are experts in using often magnetic fields for non destructive testing, have some further detailed experience in the "magnetic-field-theories"..?

Best regards,
Stephan
Attachment: Arc_Blow_Pictures.pdf (268k)
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-06-2007 00:10
Hello Stephan;

That is some explanation!

The sketches clarify how the current induced magnetic fields interact with each other very nicely.

I've even had problems welding dissimilar base metals together because the alloy steel developed a residual magnetic field that was not balanced by a corresponding magnetic field in the nonmagnetic nickel copper alloy. It was a devil of a time until we degaussed the steel alloy plate. The resulting weld spatter looked like a fireworks display with little blobs of hot weld metal flying everywhere!

Once again, the degaussing the plate and using multiple heavy tack welds (one at each of the four corners) to secure the plates seem to cure the problem.

Your explanation is worthy of a PhD thesis by itself.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By gndchuck (**) Date 09-06-2007 03:03
Stephan,

Wow!!!

Usually us little lonely wet welders just fram it with a BMF hammer a few times and that seems to break up what magnetism that seems to be there, not wanting to sound like a jacka$$, but I've never had anyone explain it like that.  From what I understand it makes sense.  Now having said that I've gotten into a few "heated" discussions with the phd's saying that what I was doing wasn't possible.  But that all falls under the skill (or lack of) the welder, some times if you don't know you aren't suppose to be able to do it and it works, mmmmmm, who's to say.  I do know that from the underwater stand point that the first strike of the arc is sometimes "funny" but usually works itself out in the first 1/4" or less, I always thought that it was from the metal being "cold" (water temp), and was the arc heating it up.  Anyways my thoughts.  The most I've ever had to deal with offshore wet welding has been around 7 gauss on the meter, there was a lot of big hammers making a lot of sound and it seem to have work rather well from what I can remember. 
Just my cent and a half.

Charles Welch
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-06-2007 05:32
Dunno who your PHD's are, but the hammering will work. Your changing to a modest degree the preferential alignment of the magnetic domains through resonance. (That was how it was explained to me, I've seen it work since many times so I don't question it).

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-06-2007 05:26 Edited 09-06-2007 05:42
Hello Stephan,

Stated well as always. For this one though, I have a slightly different view on it. Primarily in regards to compression. Magnetic lines of force will not cross each other, they will also flow in the path of least resistance, and there density a) will decrease with a change from a higher permeable material into a lower permeable material b) decrease with distance from their respective poles.

By decrease, I mean the individual loops will spread themselves out further and further. If a bar magnet is placed on a piece of paper, and iron dust dusted on the paper, the lines will be seen in ever increasing spacing as you get further away from the magnet.

Therefore they do not actually "compress", but rather decrease or increase in spacing (of the lines of force) depending on their orientation and magnetic domains.

Ferromagnetic materials have unpaired electrons. Therefore they have a net magnetic moment/magnetic dipole moment. A ferromagnetic material will exhibit a long range ordering at the atomic level causing those electrons to line up parallel with each other creating a "domain".
These atomic domains as found in an at rest state without being influence by an external magnetic field will be in nearly a random lay out in the matrix of a ferromagnetic material.
When these individual atomic domains are subjected to an external magnetic force, they will align in a preferential direction (north and south so to speak/bi-pole)
One of the key factors in the strength of the subsequent field is governed by Lorentz force law, and in the case of electrically induced will be from positive to negative in direction.

There is an obvious gap in this, but I am going to try to get a little bit back on point.. When a ferromagnetic material solidifies and or cools from it's curie temperature, such as the weld, or through heat treatment (similar effect from welding underwater. your in effect quenching the weld), the domain fields will also align at this time to some degree. (this can be observed via magnetic force microscopy)

A material is said to be saturated when all of it's domains are aligned, which gets back to the effect of magnetic arc blow.
When an external field is present during solidification, a ferromagnetic material will align it's domains somewhat at that time. The more this field is applied, (subsequent passes etc) the more saturated the material becomes until it reaches it's upper limit on the hysteresis loop. Since the domains can and do align during heating cycles that carry it above it's curie temperature etc, the field will slowly but surely build.

Some of the figures you listed are a great explanation as to how to get around it. Since the individual force lines travel the path of least resistance it kicks you back to Lorentz force law. When the force is stationary or parallel to the charge, it will have a net magnetic of zero. Therefore the idea of using tacks gives a path for the force lines to travel without negative effects on the charge velocity.

All the figures you listed are factual, and all are of concern to the welder/fabricator. As a general rule of thumb, arc blow is a concern when the Gauss gets at or above 50 (except in incidences where their is a localized rapid alignment), although on specific materials, I've seen it start up less than that.

With all that said, the only real difference I'd have with what you said is in stating it as being in compression. Now if this was a case of language barrier and you intended this to be meant as in an increase or decrease in flux density and the same for force line spacing, please ignore this post.

Respectfully,
Gerald
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-06-2007 06:41
Dear Al, Charles and Gerald,

first of all please let me say a heartily "Thanks" for your kind words and all of your extraordinary interesting replies.

I am glad for having the chance to having learned again from you, and, to be honest, I actually have expected some superior information from you.

Gerald, thanks for taking your precious time to clarify the "compression" issue and giving furthermore much more interesting additional information. I guess it can't be better explained, as you have done it.

It's often hard for me to finding the right words, and the more I greatly appreciate your (all) willingness to point me again in the right direction, when I am running into danger to be not "as a magnetic field but being on the wrong path" :-).

Thanks again to all of you and my best regards,
Stephan
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 09-06-2007 07:11
Ferromagnetic, diplole, unpaired electrons, HYSTERESIS        Geez Gerald I have not heard all those terms used in one day since I was in college for Elec. Eng.    Welding is just getting to complicated!!!   LOL

Best Regards
neat thread too
Tommy
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-07-2007 03:14
Stephan,

I think you had the right idea and an excellent explaination to begin with. I just took you up on your open invitation to comment in order to clarify the compression part.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By Stephan (***) Date 09-07-2007 07:02
Gerald,

exactly this was intended.

I am certainly not the only one, being grateful for what you have added!

Thanks again and best regards,
Stephan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-06-2007 12:37 Edited 09-06-2007 12:44
Hello Mona!

well now that you've probably read most of the wonderful responses from Al, Stephan, and CWI555, I've got a link or two for you to explore their contents so, have fun! :) :) :)

http://website.lineone.net/~diverse/layer2/zeropr.htm
http://website.lineone.net/~diverse/gateway/weldingproducts.htm
http://website.lineone.net/~diverse/literatu/zmaglit.pdf
http://home2.btconnect.com/diversetech/literatu/probelit.pdf
http://home2.btconnect.com/diversetech/literatu/zeroart.pdf

http://files.aws.org/wj/supplement/08-2003-LUO-s.pdf
http://files.aws.org/wj/supplement/Kang1-02.pdf
http://www.mesco.com.pl/produkty/ansys/cfx/electromagnetics.pdf

http://www.thefabricator.com/TubePipeProduction/TubePipeProduction_Article.cfm?ID=928
http://archive.metalformingmagazine.com/2001/05/Lincoln.pdf
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=15381

http://www.csiro.au/solutions/ps1cn.html
http://www.csiro.au/science/ps1i0.html
http://www.solve.csiro.au/1105/article7.htm

http://www.electric-cosmos.org/electricplasma.htm
http://www.wipo.int/ipdl/IPDL-IMAGES/PCT-PAGES/2006/332006/06084323/06084323.pdf
http://ewm.volsu.ru/khop2.pdf

http://stinet.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA455062&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
http://www.supsalv.org/pdf/cut_weld.pdf
http://www.diversworldwide.com/pdf/16.pdf

http://www.thefabricator.com/WeldingInspection/WeldingInspection_Article.cfm?ID=100
http://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/Permeability.htm

Here is some interesting HSE (Health Safety Enviromental) info regarding the measurement and analysis of magnetic fields from welding processes:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr338.pdf

This is not related to the magnetic fields but, I thought this might be helpful to include here for you to read and see if any of this might be useful for you in your research... This is from The Welding Advisors:

11 - Contribution: Developments in Underwater Wet Welding

Underwater wet welding for repairing large structures submerged in the sea, is often much more economic than the alternative of building a hyperbaric (high pressure inert gas) containment structure around the weld locations in order to perform welding in a dry environment.

Unfortunately though, in the arc heat, sea water is decomposed into hydrogen and oxygen which risk to be promptly absorbed into the molten metal. Absorbed oxygen can cause loss of alloy elements and is expelled during cooling down into porosity pockets, while hydrogen risks to generate hydrogen assisted cracking and brittleness.

The rapid cooling provided by water collapsing on the weld puddle upon arc extinction produces, in regular steels, depending on their composition and on that of filler metals, hard structures with low ductility and toughness. These problems have spurred dedicated research efforts to investigate which composition modifications would improve the mechanical properties of wet welds.

Microstructural refinement intended to promote a particular (acicular) ferritic structure, hydrogen mitigation and porosity reduction were the main goals of several joint industry research programs in the past two decades. Compositional adjustment of consumables was determined to be the most important factor promoting quality of wet welds.

Hydrogen reduction was obtained by including in covered electrodes high proportions of oxidizing agents capable of combining and sequestering hydrogen in the slag.

The addition of titanium and boron in the flux coating of rutile grade electrodes was found to produce the favorable acicular ferrite microstructure, with improved mechanical properties.

These improvements depend on the depth into the water, being influenced by the environmental pressure. This means that the coating has to be optimized for the prospected depth of wet welding work.

Porosity was found to be reduced by the presence of ferromanganese, but then the amounts of titanium and boron must be reduced to low values, possibly in contrast with the above findings, therefore requiring accurate balancing of elements. Nickel additions were found to improve fracture toughness.

This article is indirectly related to some of the ways to control the phenomena encountered when applying DC arc plasma's and controlling the plasma direction with an external AC magnetic field:
http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/isijinternational/45/7/947/_pdf

Here is just some outright wild, yet interesting observations by a physicist from the University of Nairobi in Kenya:
http://www.exmfpropulsions.com/Background/INTRODUCTION.htm

Hope you find something in these links that will help in your research. :) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry but, you can call me "Hank"
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-06-2007 16:42
Henry!

I must kindly admit: "You are certainly a source of inexhaustible knowledge!"

This is truly overwhelmingly!

Best to you,
Stephan
Parent - - By batanony (*) Date 09-06-2007 23:32
WOW!! I haven't checked my e-mail for two days only :))

A big big big "THANK YOU" to all of you great people, u r really helpful not only from the scientific point of view, but also you raise my spirit high :) Thank you all Stephan ( u r an angel) :), Gerld, Hank :), AL, gndchk, ...all of u and excuse me if i forgot anyone.

First, i'd like to tell you something interesting, during my last series of experiments "Focused on investigating the arc blow in wet welding", we  welded identical welds using different polarities DCEP and DCEN...As the previous series revealed earlier, DCEP gives better results in wet welding. Gndchuk please :), do u weld on DCEP or DCEN?

now, i need to tell u an important note. I measured the gauss before and after welding..There was no residual magnetism in the steel. It was almost 1 gauss before and after..Which means no problem in the base metal. This happens during the wet welding only.

Now, let's come to the Arc blow..i have been reading in the electrical fundamentals for a while now..However, i am not sure i understand everything i read.Allow me please to go throw some electrical, mathematical formulas that might lead us :).. I don't know yet but i like to think Stephan explanation is perfect... :)

I do get the fact that a magnetic field is induced when an electric current passes through a conductor. Yes, the flux lines are circular and going wider as we are moving away from the electric current.The measure of the strength of that field is not the flux line it self but the flux density (B=Φ/A). Since the flux has a magnitude and direction, B is a vector quantity. As Gerld mentioned , the flux lines never cross, otherwise this will imply that were two directions of B (flux density= flux/ unit area) at the point where they crossed. ok?

Now if come to the forward and backward Arc blow, i understand that very well and i can explain it and please correct me if i am wrong in anything at all. As the welder starts to weld at the edge, the magnetic field spreads quiet well in ferromagnetic material like steel, while on the other hand find difficulty in concentrating in the air due to the lower magnetic permeability of the air. This means that the flux lines will be so heavy and close together in the steel plate and wide enough in the air, that's why the arc is pushed forward causing the forward arc blow. Then, proceeding forward (assuming this is a lap joint), there will be no arc blow becuase there is a balance to the flux lines on both ides of the electrode.  Now, we r reaching the other edge of the weld, what happend? i will explain that but i am not convinced with it ..I read it this way...As the welder reaches the other edge, the same scenario repeats it self, heavy flux lines in the steel and wide ones in the air, we agreed that the arc ,moves from the heavy to the relaxed side..However, what happened here is that the arc doesn't want to leave the steel plate and when approaching the end, back blow occurs? Am i correct in this explanation???

Now, i will focus on my groove welds because here lies the problem!! What i couldn't figure out is why the arc blow is so strong in the V-groove butt joints? Stephan idea is brilliant and i'd never reached it by my self anyway .. there must be a third magnetic field causing that strong arc blow behind..This could be due to the ground clamp ...no other reason i suppose for this disturbance in the magnetic field..am i right?

In the next series of experiments, we will use more tack welds and will use four ground connections as Al suggested to distribute the flux equally on the four sides of the weld. I know the welder plays an important roll here. I hope this will work out just fine ...
I thank u all again deep from my heart ...You make me feel like we working together :)

Mona
Parent - By gndchuck (**) Date 09-07-2007 00:42
At the company that I work for we use DCEP as per procedure, I do know from experience with other commerically available electrodes that they recommend DCEN.  I've tried both DCEP and DCEN, and DCEP weld metal will have a better visual appearence.

Charles Welch
Parent - - By Stephan (***) Date 09-07-2007 11:27
Mona,

first of all thanks for your kind response.

May I try to answer on some of your considerations?

Quote:

"... As the welder starts to weld at the edge, the magnetic field spreads quiet well in ferromagnetic material like steel, while on the other hand find difficulty in concentrating in the air due to the lower magnetic permeability of the air. This means that the flux lines will be so heavy and close together in the steel plate and wide enough in the air, that's why the arc is pushed forward causing the forward arc blow..."

---- Unquote

In my humble opinion this could be said so, just as following the descriptions been stated by Gerald. It is hard for me to translate this action into English language. In German we call it as already mentioned "Kantenwirkung". Being required to translate this I would most rather use the term: "Edge-Impact"(?).

Quote:

"...Then, proceeding forward (assuming this is a lap joint), there will be no arc blow becuase there is a balance to the flux lines on both ides of the electrode..."

--- Unquote

In my humble opinion this - in general - could be said so. What I would be a bit more careful with is the assumption of having a lap-joint to be welded. I would propose to presume a "Bead On Plate" weld, since as far as I mean to have understood this tricky matter, every little variance in relation to this simplest presumption (Flat work-piece - Arc - Electrode) does influence the symmetry of the magnetic field-force orientation.

Quote:

"... Now, we r reaching the other edge of the weld, what happend? i will explain that but i am not convinced with it ..I read it this way...As the welder reaches the other edge, the same scenario repeats it self, heavy flux lines in the steel and wide ones in the air, we agreed that the arc ,moves from the heavy to the relaxed side..However, what happened here is that the arc doesn't want to leave the steel plate and when approaching the end, back blow occurs?..."

---- Unquote

In my humble opinion this could be said so. But...

When I am going right here - and I have stringently reconsidered what you state mentally thus I hope I am right now - when welding toward the ground clamp and approaching this step-by-step, there should also occur an additional "incrementally" raise in the amount of arc-blow, compared with the amount of what can be observed when starting the weld on the work-piece' opposite edge.

Why..? Well, as far as I think, here one has to add both the value the "Edge-Impact" - founded on what has been discussed already - plus the value of impact founded on what has been discussed when we have spoken about the electrical conductors having different current flow directions or different polarities, respectively. In other words. In my opinion the absolute value of "Arc-Blow" should be more distinctive in the ground clamp area compared directly with the work-piece edge being "opposite" to that.

Quote:

"...Now, i will focus on my groove welds because here lies the problem!!,... This could be due to the ground clamp ...no other reason i suppose for this disturbance in the magnetic field..am i right?..."

---- Unquote

In my humble opinion it could be a bit more intricate (as usually :-) ). Why..? Well, as far as I mean, here one has to consider the path the current takes between the cathode (normally the stick-electrode though the polarity is secondary) and the work-piece (ground clamp). Between its "leading-in" via the arc and its way toward the ground clamp the current induces magnetic field forces. When I have understood correctly what Gerald has stated:

Quote:

"...Since the individual force lines travel the path of least resistance it kicks you back to Lorentz force law. When the force is stationary or parallel to the charge, it will have a net magnetic of zero..."

---- Unquote

the value of field forces is different to zero, since they were neither stationary nor parallel to the charge. This again means that the path the current has to take through the work-piece - between the arc and the ground clamp - is more or less magnetized. Under advert conditions - so far my considerations - this could be together with the "Edge-Impact" one additional reason for a most severe arc-instability when starting the weld within a groove weld making it practically impossible to continue the weld (the arc is punctiliously being pushed into the open groove, e.g. when welding the root layer).

In contrast to starting the weld at the ground clamp's opposite edge let's now presume that you are starting the weld at the ground clamp area edge. The path length the current has to flow between both poles is now shorter than before, therefore the length of this work-piece area being magnetized is reduced as well. The arc - as our weak electrical conductor (see also Al's explanation) - now follows both the "magnetized path" between the ground clamp and the cathode on the one hand, and the larger amount of material (although being molten weld metal and thus itself being non magnetic = T > t Curie) which can be found by the already welded seam. As you know, larger relative material's masses do attract the arc, which can be proven by e.g. using a large steel block and positioning it in the nearer area of the welding arc.

So far my humble considerations...

As always I am open for any correction and addenda.

Best regards to you and all the other appreciated colleagues,
Stephan
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-07-2007 15:38
I may be wrong, but I think you got it nailed with that one Stephan.
Parent - By batanony (*) Date 09-08-2007 19:35
Stephan :)

Many many thanks are not enough (as usual), you know what? I feel like u r with us :)) You understand my research problems more than I do and you r so precise ...Thanks again for the wonderful explanation and the corrections u made to my understanding...

As u can see on the attached figure, this is what I meant to say or to explain when welding to the edges and so ...It can't be explained better than you and Gerlad did...
However, the impact edge effect on arc blow ,as it is called, might have some solutions to alleviate it such as: using the run off tabs, several ground connections as you kindly suggested before in the other thread, lowering the electric current (this is not possible underwater unless u r using a smaller electrode diameter), using several tack welds  or using half of the electrodes only and then replace it ..Right?

Now, what I am concerned more about is the side arc blow. Your theoretical presentation  Stephan especially on v-groove butt joints is perfect and I am totally convinced with it because I saw it happening and I trust your knowledge very much indeed :))) All of u actually, I trust all of ur knowledge people here  ...:)

You suggested to use two ground clamps and put them on both sides on the weld , right? Two or four or whatever, the aim is to let go the condensed magnetization around the electrode and the base metal on an equal distribution on both welding sides, right?

That suggestion, I will try in my next series of experiments ..However, I am trying now to solve the arc blow problem or reduce it to minimum. So, here are some of the preparations which my PHD supervisor professor encourages me to consider for the last experiments dealing with the arc blow (I hope it gives the results I dream of):

1- Several ground clamps on work piece
2- Using copper guides along the weld to maintain a straight line weld pass.
3- A backing strip (probably made of copper too), to fix the root pass...No excessive penetrations or burn through. 

I think that's all...Any comments please on these preparations?

Right, I recall now that in my previous topic, you suggested I use Stainless steel electrodes, right?
Stainless steel is non magnetic, does that mean when the current passes through the electrode there will have no magnetic field around it? How will Stainless steel electrodes reduce the arc blow then?

Actually Stephan, I am not using Stainless steel electrodes. But if they prove to solve the Arc blow problem, then i have to get deep into it before I apply that in my experiments.
   
Thank you and best regards always :)

Hank, that was a misunderstanding :) I totally forgot it i promise..Now, i can say "I owe all of u a great deal and u helped me more than i imagined"..I am thankful and greatful really :))

Thank you again all :)
Mona
Parent - By batanony (*) Date 09-07-2007 00:40
Thank u Hank,
Like stephan siad ..This is a river of knowledge u gace me :) i just hope i can read and understand most of them :( lot of work ..huh ? :(
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-07-2007 04:10
Henry,

That last link was as you said, wild. I've been following some of your links, and find the one about an electrical sun most interesting. Do you have any others along those lines?

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-08-2007 15:20 Edited 09-08-2007 15:58
Hi CWI55!

Do you mean something like this?
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

Here's a "Galactic Circuit":
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/galaxies.htm

Here's "Stephan's Quintet!" After reading this one will have another interesting perspective of our friend Stephan ;) only kidding there my friend!!! :) :) :):
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/arp.htm

Here's some other interesting technolgies and realities that we better face if we're to survive into the next millenium:
http://www.seaspower.com/PDF%20Documents/EPWoutofboxBrief.pdf

Here are some links that you'll find interesting:
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/links.htm

Go to the bottom of the page in this link to find other interesting websites:
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/planets.htm

I hope these will provide you sufficient reading. :) :) :)

Btw, I apologize for not getting back to all of you sooner... I was a bit incapacitated for the last two days with some complications due to the meds I'm currently taking which resulted in me having to be infused with a substantial amount of platlets which can be an experience in itself at times :(

Hey but, the main thing is that I'm okay, and still fighting the good fight like Ryder!!!
"Sometimes I feel like a nut!!! Sometimes I do'nt - Almond Joy!!!" I forgot the rest but, I think you know where I'm coming from.

That kid (Ryder Dee) sure is a miracle!!! Any who, I'm going to take it easy today because I'm just a tad under the weather if you catch me drift??? :) :) :)

Mona (batanony)! I'm gald to be of service to you especially after we initially got off the wrong foot, so to speak which was probably my fault because of my own lack of understanding your true intentions. ;)

Respectfully,
Henry but, you can call me "Hank!!!" ;)
Parent - - By batanony (*) Date 09-13-2007 14:03
Hello Everyone :)
How r u doing? FIne i hope always ..I am still working on the stainless steel elecrodes and how they will effect the agetnic fields induced in welding.
There are five types of stainless steel as we all know depending on the Ni and Cr percentages in the alloy as well as the heat treatment processes required to produce them. They are as follows:

1-  Ferritic Stainless steel (Magnetic)
2-  Austenitic Stainless steel ( Non-Magnetic)
3-  Martinsitic Stainless steel (Magnetic)
4-  Precipitating hardened stainless steel (Magnetic)
5-  Duplex. (Somehow magnetic as it is ferritic -Austinitic).

Stainless steel electrodes are used in welding either similar metals (stainless steel too), or may be used to weld mild steel as well and produces remarkable welds. This is because electrodes provide greater corrosion resistance than the base metals on which they are applied. And here are, for example,  the welding specs according to some Techalloys manufacturers of these electrodes for the Tech-Rod 308 / 308H SMAW electrodes are used to weld unstabilized austenitic stainless steels such as AISI 302, 304 and 305. Tech-Rod 308 / 308H

WELDING PARAMETERS
Process Electrical Amperage
SMAW DCEP .093" (2.50mm) 65-75
.125" (3.14mm) 90-105
.156" (4.00mm) 120-135
.187" (4.00mm) 135-155
[For vertical welding, amperage should be reduced by 10 - 15 amps] these specs fits just fine in my wet welding experiments.

I found also this tip of information in welding handbook Vol.3. "The use of Austenitic stainless steel filler metal for wet welding carbon steel and low alloy steel circumvents the HAZ cracking problem"

So, now I am pretty sure that replacing my E6013 paraffin waxed electrodes with the above ones will give better results. I just don't know how will that affect the arc blow..? No sources on this point!! Any suggestions please...I know I ask a lot of questions pardon me please...You r helping me a great deal and I am so thankful 
Parent - - By Flash Date 09-16-2007 10:10
Hi batanony
All great discussion, and the distortion of the magnetic field around the arc as you are at the start and finish of a weld, or welding inside small cones, you can not get an even magnetic field around arc, and it blows like a

all of this discussion assumes it is magnetic and not thermal arc blow
has thermal been considered and eliminated, because if you where ever going to get it, wet welding would surely be a case.

my two cents worth
Regards
Flash
www.technoweld.com.au
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 09-16-2007 14:02
http://archive.metalformingmagazine.com/2001/05/Lincoln.pdf  Some further information on both magnetic and thermal.
Parent - By batanony (*) Date 09-17-2007 10:45
Hello Flash

Thank you for answering me and asking as well. I actually have read only once about the thermal arc blow. It was the Lincoln work in America. Hank has sent me their website.
All that I found on thermal Arc blow is that:

"Thermal arc blow occurs because an electric arc requires hot zones on the electrode and workpiece plate to maintain a continuous flow of current in the arc stream. As the electrode advances along the work, the arc tends to lag behind, caused by reluctance of the arc to move to the colder plate. The ionized space between the end of the electrode and the hot surface of the molten crater creates a more conductive path than from the electrode to the colder plate. During manual welding, a small amount of thermal back blow due to arc lag is not detrimental, but becomes problematic at higher welding speeds, as occurring in automatic welding. Thermal arc blow sometimes may combine with magnetic back blow, leading to quality problems."

I think but I am not sure, that the thermal arc blow could result in the same of arc blow occurring at the edges or what Stephan called Edge Effect or Edge impact. So, it will merely result back arc blow. But how thermal arc blow will cause side arc blow? I guess it can't this is due to the magnetic fields present in this joint in particular which Stephan again had magnificently explained.
So, I guess thermal arc blow even differ in the concept from the magnetic arc blow, but results in the same two types or arc blow but not the third one which presented a problem in my experiments.
Thank you so much :)
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Can we discuss Arc blow further?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill