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Up Topic Welding Industry / Inspection & Qualification / New CWI Endorsements!
- - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-24-2008 16:42
This just came in my EMAIL.....  I'll be unavailable but it sure sounds like a good opportunity!

Beta Test Candidates Wanted

AWS is seeking candidates to participate in a beta test for the AWS D1.2 or ASME VIII / IX exams. There is no charge for the exam and those who are selected and successfully pass the exams will receive an endorsement to their CWI/SCWI credentials.

You must be a current CWI or SCWI to qualify and participate in these beta tests.

The exams will take place at 2:00 PM on July 23, 2008, at the Embassy Suites Hotel in Coraopolis, Pennsylvania.

There are 15 openings for each exam and candidates will be selected on a first come, first qualified basis.

Interested candidates should complete the endorsements application, which can be found at http://files.aws.org/certification/EndorsementApp-Beta.pdf. All completed applications should be submitted for processing to the:

American Welding Society
Attn: Frank Lopez Del Rincon
550 NW LeJeune Rd.
Miami, FL 33126
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-24-2008 16:47
Lawrence,
  Maybe it is just me and my lack of computer skills, but I could not get the link to work.

John
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-24-2008 19:22 Edited 04-24-2008 19:48
Correct link is http://files.aws.org/certification/EndorsementApp-Beta.pdf

I hear the slots for this are going fast, especially the ASME flavor.

Ross
AWS Marketing

UPDATE: All the slots for this filled up in less than 3 hours.
Parent - By soilschick (*) Date 04-25-2008 04:04
So I faxed my application in way too late, well darn.  I wanted to try the ASME exam.
Parent - - By mtlwkr Date 04-25-2008 13:38
to Ross@AWS,
Let me get this straight! (1) Free registration (2) Fly across the country on our dime & time! (3) Participate in a beta trial for the benefit of AWS on our dime & time. (4) Meals & lodging on our dime. (5) Study & course materials on our dime & time. All for the dubious "benefit" of an added endorsement that is neither required nor recognized by our industry?  Ludicrus @ best. Sounds like another profit opportunity for AWS @ the expense of it's members!   mtlwkr
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-25-2008 13:43
AWS is its members.

Ross
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-25-2008 15:26
What exactly does the endorsement do that the original test did not do ?

I have taken B31.1/Sec IX(1990) and D1.1 99 and 2006 and passed the complete exams (all three parts). Can I get some extra "Endorsement" I have had 3 CWI numbers ?

Why don't you make the test free for those that pass and charge those that fail. THAT would be an endorsement.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-25-2008 15:50 Edited 04-25-2008 17:49
I don't think endorsements are earned by taking different editions of D1.1.  It's hard to see how that would be useful.  You might ask if you can have the D1.1 and ASME endorsements listed on one card, if you tested to both codes and your certifications haven't lapsed. Let me know if you want me to look into this.

Ross
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-25-2008 18:19
Back in 90 I took B31.1 Sec IX. Went on for years and because of the increasing fees decided to let it lapse. In 99 a company I worked for needed a CWI. I told them I would take it if they wanted. I passed that. We parted ways later. I let my 3 year fee lapse. In 2006 I tested again.

I understand about the different versions of D1.1 but I did take it on 31.1 and Sec IX and passed. Would endorsements be avalable to people that have taken it and passed on more than one code ?

Gerald
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-25-2008 18:40
I think you'd have a pretty good case if the first cert hadn't lapsed. There are continuing education requirements, etc. that you wouldn't be able to demonstrate, so I don't think they'll open the door to recognizing lapsed certs. You can take this up with the Certification Dept. if you want, though. (800-443-9353 ext 273.) You definitely have a unique situation.

Ross
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-25-2008 18:58
See. The whole "Lapsed" concept in my opinion is a CASH cow. Is it the Q&C comittees opinion that a person who does not pay a fee after a period of time has inherently less retention than one who has?

The 2nd time I took my test I recall the person at AWS indicating I could just pay a "Late fee" to take just the 2 parts to renew my original cert. The cost for the test with the late fee was very close to the entire test cost so I passed and just took the whole test. (I have had 3 CWI numbers).

I don't know any surgeons but I would be curious if after 3 years they have to pay a fee to keep their status as a surgeon. After 9 years do they have to "Recertify". What about lawyers. Those guys deal with "codes" all the time. Do they have to retest?

It seems a bit odd that there are soooo many certifications for what is basically the same thing. A professional level of knowledge related to the subject of welding and welding related processes.

I am done with my little rant. I do think AWS is great just for the books and magazine and the best part, this forum. I am calling Q&C.

Thanks
Gerald Austin
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-25-2008 19:22
I understand your point and I hope they can work something out for you. Surgeons do have to renew their licenses regularly, and they also have to show continuing education evidence, as do lawyers, nurses, dentists, CPAs, CWIs, and other professionals.

What is new about endorsements is that you can now recertify by testing to a different code or taking the Certified Radiographic Inspector exam. All the old options are still open. You don't have to retest to after nine years (although that's an option). You just have to provide evidence of 80 hours of continuing education, similar to what other professionals have to do.  AWS also offers a "boot camp" seminar to fulfill the continuing education requirement, for those who find that convenient.

Ross
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-26-2008 01:29
Do the other professions you speak of have to test? Or do they just pay a fee and keep on going ?

So if you just show the 80 hours pay the fee thats it ? The test seems like more fun for the money if the cost is the same. It would be nice if a welder could do that . Just show some classes taken POOF still certified! I need to look through the standard again.

Thanks for putting up with me. I may have had too much coffee today!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-26-2008 02:25 Edited 04-26-2008 02:30
Gerald,
  "I need to look through the standard again."

After lurking in the background of this post I must say that your own word's are golden. However it is the requirements for continued certification, as well as requirements for nine year certification that results in SCWI, if memory serves me correctly, that you should review.

I personnaly feel that the fee's that are neccessary to make this happen are minute at best considering the obviously marketable value of this certification along with CONSISTANT and CONTINUED application of this ability.

One cert. # that is five years old could very well be worth more than five cert. #'s, IMHO

Respectfully,
jrw159

EDIT: I will have the same AWS number I have now when I die.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-26-2008 03:53 Edited 04-26-2008 18:57
I have pretty much been the same inspector since the 1st test. The card and number is just something to show those that depend upon those type of things that I have a basic understanding of this. I do agree that having the cert is useful. But it is a drop in the bucket compared to having the knowledge. What changes every three years if I pay my fee? I continue to get "inspection trends" 4 times a year ! As an inspector, I don't change.  I do agree that the fees are necessary to cover the cost to AWS but they seem high. Basically the two tests I passed before the last one are of "No Value". Money in the bank for someone. Yet I as an welding professional continue to learn more through experience and self study. I grow based on my experiences and not the pieces of paper I buy.

When I took this test the last time I wanted to do the SCWI. I met the requirements BUT if I remember right I had to take the CWI 1st, pay those fees and then do the requirements for a SCWI and test. I couldn't just take the SCWI exam even though I had passed the CWI twice before.

It just seems like a high price for what you get. Why doesn't AWS certify welders? They wrote a "Program" for a facility and required the facility to "Certify" . Is it because there is more to certifying a welder than givin him or her a computer graded test that has been very close to the same for many years?

Anybody can maintain the cert who feels that is necessary. Just send the money, go to boot camp, get the ceu's whatever it takes.

Edit: Have a nice day!
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-26-2008 14:59 Edited 04-28-2008 15:49
Gerald,
  So let me get this straight. Of course I will use todays prices for this, but I am sure that the equivilants will be fairly consistant in the past.

$800.00 for exam fees X 3 =$2400.00

as opposed to

$800.00 X 1 then $445.00 at three year mark X 2 =$1690.00

Now add to the scenario that it will take 9 years of consistant CWI certification before you can get SCWI.

By this it would appear that you have paid more for three different CWI #'s than you would have if you had just paid renewal fee's. As well as double the time needed to gain SCWI.

Did I miss something, because at this point I am baffled by this reasoning.

But you are right in the fact that you will have passed the test more times than I, and I really do not know what to say to that, as it appears you are proud of that.

Maybe I missed something, I don't know.

So, congratulations???

John
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-26-2008 18:53 Edited 04-26-2008 19:08
Hey John

I may have been unclear. The companies I worked for needed a CWI. I told the 1st I would take the test I pass they pay I fail I pay. The 1st company was a field construction company. before my 3 years was up I left. I think I kept it current for 6 more years but I'm not sure.

When I tested the 2nd time it was at the request of the company. I told them I could pass the test if they wanted to send me. That was the case in which the 2 part exam with the late fee was almost as much as the whole exam and I chose to take the whole exam. I was pretty sure I hadn't gotten dumber over the years.

The 3rd time was at the request of the company but I had told them up front I could certify if they wanted. They paid for the exam. I did expect to stay there longer but left and I feel indebted to them since they didn't get more than a year out of their Test fee they paid for me.

I have never thought I "Needed" the CWI. I missed some jobs without it I'm sure. I have also probably gotten some because of it.

I believe I paid for 1 or 2 renewals but couldn't be sure. I worked in field construction with boilers and pressure vessels. A CWI wasn't a requirement in most cases. I am pretty sure I have never provided my CWI card or number to anyone until a year or so ago. Kinda like my HS Diploma and DD214. They are documents that represent a good accomplishment but without the documents, I still have accomplished the tasks.

I imagine I am no more proud of the 3 tests than you are of having the same CWI number. I made the comment based on your statement. I feel very confident you or many others can pass the test as needed.. I am proud of welding but I feel I am no better than anyone else. I am just a welder with a CWI card. Wohooo!

The CWI exam content is something I thought all welders knew. I didn't think it was "All that" after the 1st time I took it. I figured I had just done something all of the professional welders did. I had not been out of the Navy long and was still under the understanding that civilian welders were much better trained and skilled than Navy welders. I started reading books about welding on my own in the 10th grade. I have continued in that since. I am not boasting because I have read many of your posts and posts of many others and feel  that I am extremenly un-educated in many things related to welding.

I love welding. I love everything I read about it, I love to do it, I love to inspect it, I love to talk to others about it, I love to teach others about it etc.. . I drop my hood and watch the puddle and ALL is good. Of course the puddle is getting harder to see if my BiFocals are in the wrong place !

I reckon I probably take less pride in AWS saying I am a CWI than I should. EDIT: I have learned 90% of what I know from AWS publications and slowed down on paying my membership when they quit giving books away with each new year membership.I have met so many people here that seem so much more knowledgable than I. I love to read the posts, ask them questions etc. I am more interested in the knowledge than someone saying I know what I know.

I have no aspirations for SCWI at this time. I may not have what it takes. I am interested in getting my CWE to possibly open some chances to teach.

I apologize for seeming proud or boastful. And again, please understand that my statement regarding the 3 tests was not intended to indicate I thought that was a special feat. I am going to edit it since I feel a little ashamed that thats how it may have came out. I am somewhat passionate about welding some days. 

Companies paid for these tests, If I could have gotten an endorsement for B31.1 from my 1st test, I probably would have paid the fee. I would feel the same about high fees regardless of who pays them.

Have a good day

Gerald
Parent - - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-26-2008 19:58
Gerald,
  Now I understand the conditions that resulted in the excesive test's. I know from this forum alone that you are a very knowledable man, and I am sure, a very good inspector, reguardless of your current AWS CWI#.

I would hope that we can agree that it is best to renew rather than retest.

John
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-26-2008 22:48
It is a much more cost effective way to maintain certifications. I do agree.
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-25-2008 19:04
Follow up- No Go on a B31.1/Sec IX endorsement based on the fact that I completed and passed the entire 31.1/sec IX exam back in 90ish. I kinda figured that. I am probably less "code intelligent" now.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-25-2008 19:29
Sorry to hear that. Is that because the Section IX code requirement is different now? I see it now covers B31.1 and B31.3 -- is the current requirement different from what AWS tested you to in 1990?

Ross
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-25-2008 19:50
I explained the situation to Melissa? . I explained what had happened and what codes I used. She indicated It couldn't be done because they didn't have an endorsement for that code. She read the endorsment codes and I explained to her that that was what I had used before. She said that I would have to take the test.

The codes have all changed in content but not much in usage. D1.1 changed quaite a bit in layout and how different types of welded structures were addressed. I am not on the Q&C committee so I guess I should be happy as is !

Gerald
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-25-2008 20:44
I talked to them, too, and everybody tried, but there are a couple of reasons that make it impossible to do, given the rules that govern things.

Ross
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-25-2008 21:10
Yup. Thats what I figured.  Its kinda disheartening when you realize all of the knowledge in the world is hard (not impossible) to apply unless you can get someone else to say you know it.
We recently had an opening at the local HS vocational center for a welding instructor. I applied. I meet or exceed the welding expereince and qualifications of the person there. He is a fine instructor with a general metals background. I was told  that any vocational instructor that was going to start teaching after July 08 must have an AA degree. I can however teach at a local college without a degree? Hmmmm .

A local college in another state has a program related to welding that is a 2 year degree. I asked them if I could just take the final exams for some of the welding related courses while working on my core subjects. It was indicated that I would have to pay the full fee including lab fee for the class and then could take the exam at the end of the course. I would have to take them in order.  I could not just take the exam for a reduced fee. The exams in some of the courses are just weld tests and written exams related to the process. It was explained that they are in business to make money.

Approx $360.00 for a flat fillet weld test.

Education is a business. Certification is not about verifying someones knowledge. Its a business! Does a 3 part test REALLY cost that much to administer and grade ? You could hand grade an essay type test for that. What does the computerized test cost ? Some of the graphics and questions on the last test I took were the same as was on the test in 90. Do you think those questions have "Paid for themselves" yet. What happens every three years that requires a fee. Does it cost for my data to sit on a computer to verify my number ? The ASP application that is online that is used for online verification of CWI records can be developed in about 30 minutes with software that is free from Microsoft. A website hosting package for that same site can be had for $5.00 a month.

I really appreciate your looking into this for me.

Thanks

Gerald
Parent - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 04-25-2008 22:59
Ross,
You may want to point this out to the hired hands in Miami!
BABRT's
Parent - - By Joseph P. Kane (****) Date 04-26-2008 22:26
MTLWKR

Your disdain is why the Certification Committee normally likes to make the BETA Tests by Invitation Only.  Who needs your attitude!?!?!  You have 30 years experience, so you don't need it!  What about all the newbies who are trying to break into the business and need some sort of certification as an edge to get the job???  Horray for me!  F**K Thee!  Right?

There are often welders in this forum that are begging for some sort of certification to give them an edge in getting a first job, or getting some promotion.  So. with your hard earned credentials, you don't need anything more from AWS.

Because the Certification Committee (all volunteers, who pay for all activities out of their own pockets) is trying to make things better for the industry and the CWI program, you imply that AWS is just in it to gouge the members! 

Why don't you just turn in your CWI and your membership. (Just let it run out, so you get all you paid for.--I wouldn't want you to loose even one thin dime ) You don't need anything from AWS.

Joe Kane 
Parent - By mtlwkr Date 04-28-2008 13:35 Edited 04-28-2008 16:46
Mr. Joe Kane,
I think we may both be guilty of a little attitude & disdain!! The newbies you so patronizingly refer too are exactly the reason for my attitude! I worked my butt off to qualify for my 1st QC1 in 1978. I struggled to pay yearly dues in those days, newly married & making 6$ an hour. I travelled 100 miles a month for years to support the combined AWS/ASNT section meetings. I've struggled to pay the exhorbitant document & code fees. I've paid for AWS & ASNT seminar fees out of my own pocket. You are right in that my credentials are hard earned & I do not need anything from AWS or yourself. My concern is for the "newbies" & "FNG's" & entry level individuals who cannot afford the fee schedule now, much less the enhanced fee schedule of the future.AWS is pricing these people out of the system now, the very people who are the future of AWS. The entry level inspectors of today are out-of-luck without massive corporate support of their employers who are already stretched pretty thin by AWS corporate membership rates. So Mr. Kane I am not likely to turn in my membership or CWI just yet, it cost me too darn much. Oh,  & one more thing Mr. Kane, your use of profanity in a public, professional forum is pretty disgusting & petty.  You can do better!!   Regards, mtlwkr.
Parent - By Kix (****) Date 05-06-2008 13:22
This is not some plot from AWS to make money although it might.  This was brought about by people like you and me (AWS members) serving on committees that thought this would benefit all.  Like Ross said, AWS is it's members.
Parent - - By weebeastie Date 05-04-2008 00:25
When the Beta ASME test is over.  When do you think AWS is going to offer a Seminar/test package for the ASME code.  In the mean time, I 'd like to know what exactly what materials to purchase.

In the email it stated the test was on Section VIII and Section IX, is that what I buy to begin study?  Does the B31.1 and B31.3 come into play?  I want to tool up so that I could get ready for a seminar and test.

I'd love answers to these questions.

Thanks!
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 05-05-2008 17:32
The new exam covers Section VII (Division 1) and Section IX, I believe. B31.1 and B31.3 are not part of this new exam. (They are an existing CWI exam Part C option.) I don't think we will have a seminar available when the new test is introduced, probably later this year. Call Certification for more info, 800-443-9353 ezt 273.

Ross
AWS Marketing
Parent - By weebeastie Date 05-06-2008 03:23
Thank you for the response Ross
Parent - - By natecf (*) Date 04-24-2008 16:57
the link did not work for me either, but you can access the form by going to the aws home page and clicking on the certifications link at the top. its there  and I just downloaded the app.
Parent - - By ross (***) Date 04-25-2008 18:47
We took the link down, in case anybody is looking for it, because the slots filled up.

Ross
AWS Marketing
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 04-26-2008 19:04 Edited 04-28-2008 13:26
Certifications of any kind simply show potential clients or employers that you've passed a standardized test indicating you retained a certain amount of knowledge about a particular subject. The certification is only useful and of value if it is recognized and it enables you to make money. It is no different than a college degree. A PhD in basket weaving isn't going to be of much value if you are working as a brick layer.

The CWI or SCWI or any other certification is valuable only if it enables you to earn money with it. It doesn't in itself make you smarter. It won't make you money sitting on the book shelf. You have to use it, i.e., work at a job that requires it. It's your club membership that you have to earn and like anything in this world, you have to pay for the privilege of being a member.

The games rules for all members are the same for everyone. Play by the rules and all is well. Try to bend the rules and something will likely break. And we all know that when things break, someone is going to have to pay to get it fixed.

No one forces you to hold a certification. You decide whether you want to participate in the game. Your employer tells you he wants you be get certified; it is still your decision to participate or seek employment elsewhere.

The cost of certification is too high? Don't maintain it, but don't cry when you have to join the club as a new member when you decide you want in on the game again.

Welders cry about the high cost of certification, yet it can mean the difference between a job paying near minimum wages or a high paying welding job that requires specific certifications.

I'm still crying about the cost of my college educations, but the money I earn now with that piece of paper tells me that it was worth the effort. Do I have to recertify every couple of years to maintain it? No, but my professional affiliations (which require the piece of paper as a prerequisite for membership in their club) require that I take continuing education class/courses to maintain my credentials. None of it is cheap, but they enable me to earn more than I would without them.

It's all about personal choices. No one forces you to join.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 04-26-2008 19:10
Good points, Thanks Al.
Parent - By jrw159 (*****) Date 04-26-2008 20:02
APPLUASE!!!!
Parent - - By dbigkahunna (****) Date 04-27-2008 17:00
I guess AWS has realized they now have competition in the certification business. I applaud the members of the comittee who has come up with these test.
I wonder though who is pushing this?
I understand, with what happened to the bridge in Minneapolis, how endorsements for those doing bridge work fabrication would benifit from an endorsement. The Section VIII/Section IX is the one I can see AWS either making inroads into the refining/petrochemical industry or wind up like it was in the early 1990's where a CWI was somewhat of a buffoon in the refining P/C industry. The power generation business seemed to embrace the CWI certification.
Right now the way ASME is written the CWI is not defined. You only have to meet the requirements of Section V for visual inspection. Is AWS working with ASME and API to insure these certificaitons will be embraced by the industry or is this a "build it and they will come" type of thing. If that is so, the CWI program has been around since the late 1970's and is still not incorporated in B31.3, 1104 or any API codes and specificaitons. Except in 577 where the qualifications of a 577 certified inspector is NOT at the same level as a AWS CWI and the 577 endorsement is clearly spelled out.
When given the opportunity to take the test will I?
You bet I will. Hopefull some of those setting on ASME and API code comittees will see this as a way to measure the ability of  welding inspectors and will use their position on these comittees to encourage this endorsement in the refining P/C industry.
I just hope this opportunity is not squandered by AWS.
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 04-28-2008 05:54 Edited 04-28-2008 05:57
Gents; being an old-timer, with approximately 28 years as a CWI, I originally took the endorsement concept as a "cash cow" as well, and I wrote to the Certification Chair cursing a blue streak about the cash cow perception.  A very well written article appeared in the WJ about the endorsement concept about the same time. 

After hearing the reasoning behind the endorsements I've changed my tune, I think it is a very good evolution of an outstanding program that has lead the planet and our industry in the certification of inspection personnel for well over 30 years.  As mentioned, AWS DOES now have competition from various entities around the globe for certifications programs and I now see the workings of the Certification Committee as good and positive movement to keep our program among the best in the world.  Yeah, we all gripe about costs rising year after year but then that's just part of life, isn't it?  Joe's point is well made about all AWS Committee Members, and for that matter, all of it's Officer's being volunteer member's on their own dime. 

In addition, myself being one of the few Forum Members who actually worked for AWS, I can say first hand the salary levels paid to Staff would be scoffed at by most of us!  AWS spends loads and loads of money and as far as I can determine, it is all spent for the betterment of our industry.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I figure my AWS CWI has earned me hundreds and thousands of dollars in my career; was a CWI really necessary?  Maybe not, but it sure has opened plenty of doors and earned a good level of respect amongst my co-workers! 

Okay, off my personal soapbox and ready for any rebuttals!~
Parent - By ross (***) Date 04-28-2008 14:14
Here's the article I think you are referring to.

Ross
Attachment: it0707-25.pdf (147k)
Parent - - By kipman (***) Date 04-29-2008 06:01
And here's one that presents an opposing opinion:

Mankenberg
Attachment: ITAutumn2006Perspective.pdf (78k)
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 05-08-2008 02:26
And the debate continues...

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-13-2008 15:26
I'm still failing to see how making the system bigger, more expensive, and more complicated makes it better.
I'm just not convinced that there is many failures taking place out there that more testing is going to prevent. Clearly the motivation here is something else. And this bothers me.
Take the Minnesota Bridge collapse for example, and correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they know the crack or cracks existed? How is another code test gonna help this?
ASME? No cracks
D1.1? No cracks.
D1.5? No cracks.
D1.whatever? NO CRACKS!!!
In fact, in all of the failures that I have either investigated, been aware of, or read about, I cannot think of a single one where additional testing would have been a preventative.
Now don't get me wrong, I think this change is probably unavoidable (the committee is certainly not to blame). But if you try and convince me its a good thing your facing an uphill battle.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-13-2008 15:39
I hear ya Jeff, and a couple of the guys came down hard on me for opposing this when I agreed with Kip several years ago when this first started to come about. But like you said the change is probably unavoidable regardless if we think it is for the good of the certification program or not.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 05-13-2008 15:56
John,
I think Kip is right when he says its being driven by 'industry segments'. And as such would then be unavoidable.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-14-2008 21:02
When your client says they want "X", you either provide them what they want or step aside and let your competion provide it to them.

In a nut shell, that's why the endorsements are coming into being.

If your customer isn't asking for a specific endorsement, then there is no reason to get it.

Best regards - Al
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