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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / AWS D1.1- 2002- 4.9 & 4.9.1-
- - By norberto (*) Date 09-04-2009 14:58
Hi, everybody. I have some doubts. 1º) If I qualify a WPS- CJP- Thk 1" (25.0 mm) V groove weld -ASTM- A-36. Am I able to weld a corner or T joint, K groove
weld, CJP or PJP or according to 4.9.1, should I be required to qualify a WPS with the groove configuration used on construction, butt joint, K groove weld to run the corner or T joint?

2º) If it's is required, shoud I have to run 3 macroetch cross-section to weld a PJP grove weld, according to 4.10.3, to demonstrate that the specified weld size will be equalled or exceeded?
A hug
Norberto
Parent - - By DAYANARA (**) Date 09-05-2009 14:20
Hi Norberto

You see table 4.5 PQR Essential Variable 31) A change in groove type (e.g. single V to double-V) except qualification of any CJP groove weld qualifies for any groove detail conforming with the requeriments of 3.12 or 3.13

But You shall prepared macrotech test to demostarte that the weld size and acceptable fusion weld. (see 4.10.2)

Dayanara

I sorry I have only AWS 2008 EDITION
Parent - - By norberto (*) Date 09-05-2009 19:17 Edited 09-05-2009 19:25
Hi Dayanara

I intend to know about joint configuration not groove type, because if I have a WPS qualified with CJP- butt joint- v groove I know that I'm able to weld any type of groove details. Please read my post with care and look up to my new attachment, and see whether you're possible to answer my two questions.
Thank you in advance.

Norberto
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-05-2009 22:39 Edited 09-05-2009 22:51
Hi Norberto!

You know I was going to give you an answer that probably would not give you a definitive answer and I say this because, as I was re-reading the first MSN Word .doc you attached to your first post, I notice that you do not actually show in detail the joint configurations and instead, you show the the welds where the grooves are without any visual detail of the groove or actual joint configuration!!!

Another important detail missing is the fact that there are no welding symbols accompanying the appropriate joint configurations shown in the MSN Word .doc drawing so, we don't know if you're going to have backing, or not and whether or not you will back gouge one side then deposit the opposite, or other side of the joint also!!! Finally, we do not know if this is indeed a nontubular connection, or a tubular connection instead... So, please clarify these issues first before we can give you correct answers.

In other words, if you erase the representations depicting the joints deposited with weld and instead, show the pre-welded condition of each joint configuration, only then can someone give you an accurate answer to your query!!! I have copy of AWS D1.1 2002, and would be happy to assist you provided that you show the joint details as I requested in the previous paragraph.

However, without the necessary details which you failed to include in your original post and word .doc, these answers may not be totally correct so, please include another set of drawings without any deposited weld representation so I can help you with the appropriate answers to your query. ;) Btw, I took the liberty to revise you MSN Word .doc file to include correct AWS nomenclature so, please review, then add the appropriate welding symbols for each joint configuration.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By norberto (*) Date 09-06-2009 14:13
Hi  Henry
First and formost I have in my mind that you're good at it,... congratulations. I GOT SOMETHING NEW coming from your words it clarified me enough, thank you. Now I am going to change the style of my question. that is:

I intend to qualify a PQR - see  my new attachment for details. It is going to be built according to AWS D1.1-2002- Section 4 part B- 4.5(1) - 4.9- 4.9.1.1- Tab. 4.2(1).
It's questioned: What kind of joint configuration and groove weld shoud I use?

If I'm wrong, please let me know again. I enjoyed your orientation it was greatful.
greetings,
Norberto
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 09-06-2009 18:26
Hi Norberto!

First and foremost, I would like to personally "WELDCOME" you to the "World's Greatest Welding Forum!!!" and as they say in Rio: "Ola!"
Also, thank you for your kind words but, there are many more in here with equal to much greater proficiency in AWS D1.1 than myself and that is why I am humbled by your comments. ;)

Anywho, back to the matter at hand... Provided that there are no changes in Essential Variables Requiring WPS Requalification for in your case, SMAW as shown and listed in table 4.5, starting on page 134, and continuing through to page 136. Also, provided that there are no changes in Table 4.11 titled "Welding Personnel Performance Essential variable Changes Requiring Requalification (See 4.22)," then the only issue left would be to which position(s) you would choose to qualify the welder in... For instance, if you want to qualify the welder to all positions then both a 3G & 4G test is required.

Are you sure you are qualifying a WPQR, or a WPS instead? Anywho, I am going to presume that you are qualifying a "Welding Procedure Specification" as opposed to a "Welding Procedure Qualification Record" since as Professor Crisi sometimes states: "English is not my mother language." ;) ;) ;)

The appropriate Test Plates for thicknesses over 3/8 of an inch, or over 9.525 mm (I know in the book it say 10 mm but, that is a rounded to the nearest millimeter dimension) shall be found in Figure 4.10 "Location of Test Specimens on Welded Test Plate Over 3/8 in. [10 mm] Thick - WPS Qualification (4.8)" and can be located on page 155.

If there is any confusion as to why only a butt joint is require as opposed to a "T" joint like shown in your illustration, just read the first General note in Figure 4.10:
" The groove configuration shown  is for illustration only. The groove shaped tested shall conform to the production groove shape that is being qualified." In other words, a single bevel on one member of the test plate as in the case of a TC-U5b which is shown in your illustration.

And to confirm this, all one has to do is to back -track to 4.9.1.1 "Corner or T-joints" Where it states; Test specimens  for groove welds in corner or T-joints shall be butt joints having the same groove configuration as the corner or T-joint to be used on construction, except the depth need not exceed 1 in. [25 mm]. So, a single bevel butt joint (45 degree angle on one member only) with backing should do the trick as long as all of the detailed dimensions of TC-U5b are also met and are within the allowable tolerances.

Note: [25 mm] is actually 25.4 mm but, the dimension used is rounded off to the nearest millimeter which in my opinion isn't really that critical in the context of the conversion shown... However, when practicing the conversion from US standard units to the Metric, or IS metric system (There is a slight difference in some values between the two metric systems) the entire purpose for the conversion to using metric dimensioning practices is to result in having more accurate as well as precise dimensions in the case of linear measurement as well as other types of measurement... So, I don't personally agree to rounding off metric dimensions to the nearest millimeter especially when precision is built in to the design. In the case of AWS D1.1 2002, this is not required as the tolerances being applied in all circumstances are large enough to allow the rounding off to the nearest millimeter.

Now to answer the question as to what are the types of test specimens required... Unless the EOR has specified something extra such as CVN testing, then have a look at Table 4.2 on page 132. You will see that for 25 mm and over,  2 Reduced Section Tension specimens and 4 side bends are required for tests on plate. Also, do not forget to read the notes 1 & 2 in table 4.2. I hope this will clarify your previous queries Norberto! ;) :) :)

Respectfully,
Henry 
Parent - By norberto (*) Date 09-07-2009 11:19 Edited 09-07-2009 12:02
Ola Henry
As you can probably see I'm getting into the swing of it. Now let's set about working. Your answer was satisfactory - thank you again - that was my main doubt about welding a joint with the configuration like TC-U4b. We have already had a qualified WPS with the configuration like B-U2 (single V-groove weld) and In my opinion, according to 4.9 - 4.9.1.1 this kind of WPS is forbidden to weld a joint configuration such as TC-U5b. As soon as possible We are going to qualify a WPS like B-U4b or B-U5a to weld the needed configuration posted at my last attachment.

Best regards
Norberto
- - By Hashirali Date 09-30-2015 19:02
I have a WPS with no PQR ..is this acceptable?
Applying D1.1
Parent - By SCOTTN (***) Date 09-30-2015 20:29
Does the WPS meet prequalified criteria?
Parent - By WeldinFool (**) Date 10-01-2015 18:07
Why would you post a question in the reply section of a 6 year old thread?
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / AWS D1.1- 2002- 4.9 & 4.9.1-

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