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- - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 03:06
It took me about 5 seconds to realize a weld engineer tried to pull a fast one on me, This was handed to me after inquiring about one, after several hundred hours were already spent welding (prior to my arrival).
Attachment: Scan0033.pdf (439k)
Attachment: Scan0034.pdf (585k)
Parent - By jarsanb (***) Date 02-26-2015 13:15
And your problem is...? It's only welding after all. Anyone who stuck some pieces together with the fine tutelage from their grandfather has all the necessary skills. No one will catch that this short arc isn't pre-qualified anyway so stop causing a fuss. Those annoying codes are for the managers. The current ranges are for amatures. A real welder knows where to adjust his equipment. A procedure should just list "as determined by the welder" and be done with it. Downhill prequalified? Why not? Just turn your head. I'm glad you don't work for me!!!:eek:
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-26-2015 13:26
Oh my!

Hard to know where to even start on this one :)
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-26-2015 14:04
I don't have a copy of the 2015 edition of D1.1 yet(so I can't verify), but... maybe the code has had a few changes from the 2010 edition....:eek:

...but GMAW and DCSP/DCEN shown on the same piece of paper? :roll:
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 02-26-2015 14:21
Where it says - DCSP and reverse polarity? That means it's qualified for both....stop splitting hairs.
Parent - By jarsanb (***) Date 02-26-2015 14:25
The word that was crossed off before engineer is "janitorial"...you have to look close to see it. I was going to list sanitary, buts thats a real job, didn't want to offend anyone.
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 16:02
could be pulse arc, it jumps back and forth?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 15:14
Okay, try thinking WAY outside the box here.

1) As John said, 2015 D1.1?? It isn't out yet.  Won't be until about October, 2015.

2) Look up at the top of the form: on the left it specifies D1.1 2015;  So, I went on line to the downloadable forms to see if they were already out, NOPE. All still based upon the 2010.  So where did they get said forms?  :confused: :eek:

3) Then, go over to the right hand side,  Annex 'H'??  Forms have been in 'N' for quite some time and 'H' has to do with UT Calibration.  ??? :confused:  :eek: 

4) Not to mention all the other items you guys named, polarity, gas shielding, Short Circuit for Prequalified, etc.

5) Can't spell: THUR ?? (Maybe it is only good on a Thursday?)   How about THRU though really THROUGH

6) Travel Speed: '0 - 12"'  Really???

I smell a major fraud.  I would cry foul big time.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 15:27
The sad thing is, I have to wait until the 2015 edition comes out to know whether its a bad procedure or not. :lol:
I did get with the structural engineer, the company has to qualify a weld procedure using GMAW-S, with no oversight. I checked the production welders at 18.2 volts, 190+ Amps, etc. I told the fabricator they need to use the same settings to qualify. With no oversight, I can't see how the procedure would not qualify. Sheesh.
I did miss the annex H part and THUR. It's possible I need to go back to grade school.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 15:36
Just noticed something else,  look up at the very top line: Suggested format for welding procedure specification (JWPS) emphasis mine

What is a 'JWPS'?

Brent
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 15:53
Junk weld procedure specification, even I know that.:grin:
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 16:47
:lol::lol::lol::eek::roll:
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-26-2015 15:37
Appendix H  Contents of Prequalified Welding Procedure Specifications

.

.

AWS D1.1   1992

Who says that old technical library is useless ???     :)

.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 15:43
WOW Lawrence!!  How did you ever think to look there?  1992?  Is the AWS digressing to old formats?  Probably not.  I'd bet this company doesn't even own a newer D1.1 let alone use newer forms.  Just change the dates to match the newest D1.1 edition, which they jumped the gun on.

Brent
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-26-2015 16:25 Edited 02-26-2015 16:29
Just Sayin  :)

Edit:   I was in 6th grade when this was published..   Al was probably senior editor :/
Parent - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 15:55
Maybe that explains, the engineer is semi retired now. the only D1.1 they had in possession was 2008. could be he last worked to the 1992 edition.
I try to be an optimist.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-26-2015 14:42
It just does no one any good when you send an inspector to school!

Al
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 15:04
So many issues with these.  Among other things, if it's per D1.1, and the mode is short circuit transfer, where's the supporting PQR?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-26-2015 15:07
Details, details, details. The devil is in the details.

Al
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-26-2015 16:34
Al,
We need a fancy chart to plot the volt/amp relationship...get busy Mr. fancy chart master....:twisted:
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 18:56
how do you figure heat input at 0 IPM travel speed?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 19:17
HIGH
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 02-26-2015 20:44
HIGH!
Now that made me spew...
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 16:00
Scott, it's prequalified, I'm no expert, but after our meeting with the structural engineer, the weld engineer did commend me on my knowledge of the codes. I can't say that was a good thing though, by the lack of his.
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 02-26-2015 17:34
Kent,
says go to local building and planning department
let them make the call, and they take the liability
they oked it to start with
this is fubar now
fix it and charge huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for cost over runs
just imho
hope this helps
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 15:23
Buy them books, send them to school, and all they do is get a critical attitude about WPS's!!  :eek:  :lol:

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 16:18
ctacker,

With all due respect, where in D1.1 do you see that GMAW-S (short circuiting transfer) is prequalified when 3.2.1 indicates otherwise?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-26-2015 16:31
Scott the "JWPS" is noted as pre-qualified as allowed by code, and says Supporting PQR "N/A"...

Brent, JWPS...Joint Welding Procedure Specification(for those who are married and are filing jointly):twisted:
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 16:38
So there's a contradiction between this JWPS and 3.2.1? Is the JWPS a part of D1.1? I've always thought that GMAW-S is not prequalified.  It's always been pretty clear to me, but I'm so confused now.  Well, maybe I'm not.  I suppose I could be, but I'm not really sure.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 17:02
Back up, sit down, relax, tuck your tail between your legs and... oh, I mean 'head' really I do, and breathe deeply. 

Now, 3.7.1 and 3.2.1 are not contradictory. 

1) GMAW-S is NOT Prequalified.
2) 3.7.1 does not address GMAW transfer modes.
3) 3.7.1 ONLY states that there are acceptable times for a vertical down progression; not that it is prequalified nor that the process is acceptable.
4) If using GMAW-S even under 3.7.1 a PQR is still required and then with a WPS in hand the welder must be qualified to weld in that position for both of the exceptions stated in 3.7.1.  In this case qualifying both the process/mode of transfer and the position/vertical down.
5) With the wording of this WPS on that line one would like to THINK that they understand and apply the above conditions.
6) From the rest of this WPS one would rather tend to think that they don't have a clue and probably don't apply any of the above conditions.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 17:10
So, it's my interpretation that GMAW-S is not a prequalified process and a PQR is required.  Is my understanding correct?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 17:16
Yes, AND, the PQR must include welding in the downward progression to prove that both the process and the direction of vertical travel can meet the requirements of tensile, yield, etc. 

Then, the welder must qualify in the downward progression.  Now, they need 3G, 4G, and 3Gdownward to be ALL position qualified.

If working a field job and desiring to run cap passes vertical down I must prove I can regardless of the process.  Doubly so with a process that is NOT prequalified and in a vertical progression NOT prequalified.  7018, FCAW, GMAW and especially GMAW-S.  PQR, then WPS, then Welder Qual to prove they can do it. 

Now, if you only need one welder qualified, then, when they run the PQR they are also personally qualified to do the downward progression with the process tested.

BB
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 17:22
Ok Brent.  Thanks.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 02-26-2015 17:39
Scott,
Our sarcasm has you questioning what D1.1 says....we(the forum members with sarcastic comments) have been picking at the WPS that ctacker has posted in his original post. Several of our comments were directed at this document that obviously has several errors contained within. Print out the two  attached docs in his OP and you will quickly see what all of the ruckus is about.
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 18:27
I would never think of being sarcastic now that I’m older and wiser.  When I was younger, my very first supervisor said to me “Sarcasm will get you nowhere in life.” Then I told him that it got me into the 1974 International Sarcasm finals in Santiago, Chile.  “Really?” he asked.  “No,” I replied.  Then I lowered myself to reluctantly admitting to him that everybody’s always saying that I’m way too sarcastic.  I guess he felt sorry for me so he asked me “What makes you say that?” and I said “My mouth.”
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 02-26-2015 18:36 Edited 02-26-2015 18:41
This is a Miracle. A godsend from Mount QA/QC Olympus. The shop foreman must be doing cartwheels all the way to the loading docks.
Looks to me it's somewhat broad spectrum and only lacks the provision to allow laying rebar in the grove for excess root opening.
Now where is that 2015 edition of D1.1 laying? I'm sure I read in the latest edition where it lists rebar as a prequalified "slugging"material..........
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-27-2015 00:47
Well, apparently Brent didn't pick up on SCOTTN's sarcasm but I did.:grin::lol::wink::cry:

P.S. jarsanb, WTFWTAA??? I believe you owe Ctacker an "apology" unless that is, you were being sarcastic also...:eek::twisted::lol::yell::roll::twisted::grin: Wow, now I'm confused.:eek::twisted::roll::confused::grin::lol::yell::twisted::yell::lol::smile::grin::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-27-2015 02:54
One of the saddest facts is, the contractor/weld engineer, told me out of all the inspectors that has ever inspected for them, I am the only one that has had any problems with them. That is the 3rd shop that has said that to me. As a quality manager in a shop, I seen a lot of guys sit in the truck and write reports, It pissed me off and made the owners happy, I vowed to change that and that's when I decided to get into 3rd party inspection. I have been yelled at, had my boss called, had other senior management called, and the answer is always the same, The inspector is right.

I think I have finally convinced everyone (except the fabricator), that some oversight on the PQR is needed.
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 02-27-2015 13:20
I feel your pain brother.
I'm tired of being handed a 15 year old SMAW certification from some other company, and nothing else, when I go on a job and ask to see the welding documentation.
Wait til you go on a D1.1 job and the contractor has been using SMAW 7018 for the last month, with damp rods, no rod oven, no WPS and no clue that it's not acceptaqble.

OK, I'm done whining now...

Tim
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 18:49
Scott, It is not in D1.1. I was being sarcastic. The WPS says it is prequalified. I knew walking into the shop there would be problems. Millermatics welding at 18V, ER70S electrode, 75/25 Ar/Co2. When I ask for a WPS I was handed a FCAW procedure. After telling them I needed one for GMAW (I didn't even say short arc, I wanted to see what they came up with on their own), They mentioned their engineer would be back in a couple days. Friday I received the posted WPS. I immediately went back to the shop and told them most of what was wrong with the WPS they turned in. A non-conformance was written for all the work. They contacted the county, and we had a meeting with the structural engineer, fab shop, county personnel, and myself. Now they have to qualify a PQR and write a WPS that is in compliance with the code. My only beef now is that the structural engineer is letting them qualify a PQR with no oversight from me. So, how do I know they will use the same essential variables that are used in production? They also had all the PJP welds completed prior to inspection. I get to randomly select a few and perform a macro-etch on them to verify joint geography and fusion (If their WPS gets qualified).
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 19:08
Ok.  Thanks.  I thought I was the only one here that uses sarcasm.  I have a tremendous respect for all of you and it never really occurred to me that the slightest hint of sarcasm was being employed.  I was actually looking in D1.1 to see what I was missing.
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 02-26-2015 19:19
I won't even post the FCAW procedure i got. It's pretty much the same. It's from 2008, I guess he only allows weld on " THUR" as Brent seen. I did have to wonder what "semi globular transfer" is though. Also, the material welded is not just A36, its A500, A572-50, and A36.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 19:59
Because of the gases used for shielding, the droplet to electrode size, and several other factors, it has been stated in the Welding Handbook, Vol 1, Welding Science and Technology book as "the controlled globular transfer". 

I know we have had this discussion in a variety of forms but because of all these variables mentioned I can't say that I believe FCAW can actually be properly termed as having the same modes of transfer as GMAW.  It does not get into a true short circuit mode nor a true spray arc mode.  It is though a widely applied variation of globular from a very low end to a high end.  But when you consider what makes GMAW-S qualify for the mode as well as GMAW to it's mode you have arc, droplet, and other qualities that just don't apply to FCAW. 

Lawrence, Allan, Henry, electrode, Al and others here can much more accurately and educationally explain and defend their various positions on the differences but the bottom line is... 'semi globular transfer'?  Someone needs to do more studying. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-26-2015 21:21 Edited 02-26-2015 21:30
I have to hold my nose when I say it but....."Globular Transfer Mode is a prequalified process"

So just turn up the .035 WFS to about 450 and the voltage to about 26 and have-at's with your bad-self and your spatter scrapers.

BTW... A google search does provide results for "Semi-Spray" transfer..... An A3.0 search does not :)

Semi-Globular is a term Google does not even hook up to.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 21:40
But isn't that with the GMAW process?  Does it truly apply to FCAW as well?

BB
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-26-2015 19:27
Scott,

To be honest, I hesitated answering above because of you and the amounts of sarcasm being used all around on this one.  But it just appeared you were truly questioning if you understood correctly.

Now, having said that, I hope I read correctly.  If you were also being sarcastic then I apologize for explaining something that did not need explanation.  I would hope though that others watching this would then understand where we were coming from seeing as they don't understand the 'fun' we have around here. 

This is really disconcerting.  And now, as ctacker states, they are going to allow the shop to perform the testing without supervision.  I believe that on most jobs where the contractor messes up it is mandatory for TPI involvement in the corrections and even welds that were originally only set for periodic inspections are now required to be viewed continuously through the repair/correction.  Maybe not mandatory by code but by most of my clients. 

Brent
Parent - - By SCOTTN (***) Date 02-26-2015 19:39
It never really occurred to me that anyone was being sarcastic, and I truly questioned the response.  I'm ok now.  I'm just going to sit back, take a deep breath, and have a much needed bottle of water.  Wait a minute.  Here we go again.  The cap on my bottle of water says "Open By Hand." Wow.  That was so helpful because I was about to open it with a screwdriver.  Thank God I saw that.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-27-2015 01:03
My water just says: "Open Here." on top of the bottle cap... Hmmmm... Can I use a screwdriver on that? :eek::grin::lol::twisted::yell::lol::yell::smile::wink::cool:
- - By GregC Date 02-27-2015 04:06 Edited 02-27-2015 05:48
I have a serious question here. Can you use the word Appox. on a WPS, or does it need to be more specific on a specification? One other thing I Interpret differently is the statement "preheat material when ambient temp in vicinity of weld is lower than 0˚ F". It is my understanding that when the temp is below 0˚ F you need to bring the ambient temperature up above 0˚F.

Greg
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 02-27-2015 05:48
Hence the title of this thread rings true again and again... "Bad WPS"
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